T207 The Best Tobacco Set Of All Time

[Birken]

Before you haters chime in...let me state my case.

Think about what the early 1900's looked like. Limited technology as we know it, death, disease, deplorable conditions, etc.
So, when I look at T207's...I automatically think of a very drab life at the time. T207s reflect that reality...you throw in a splash of color on the cards and you get...well...hope. It is easily the most "real" set of all time. It reflects true life at the time. The contrast between the brown (drab) background and the limited color appearing on the cards is absolutely stunning. Show me any other Tobacco Set that has that kind of contrast. It's either all color or black and white.

When you start breaking down the stats, T206s have probably 100 times per player and T205s 50 times per player compared to T207s. Factor in the fact that the T207 set has 15% more rare cards than the T20six Wagner...and I shake my head everyday why anyone would chase the T20six Wagner.

I'm a collector...not an investor, so my post here is to those true collectors of the hobby. But a word of warning to the investors out there, supply and demand always come back to equilibrium...trust me I know, and at some point the Tobacco market wakes up and realizes a T214 Cobb is infinitely more rare than any T20six Cobb combo you could imagine.

So...thanks for letting me put my opinion out there. I look forward to the debate that follows. Bottom line...it's not always about the money... we have all been conditioned to believe that this is exactly what it's about.

Ben




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[ullmandds]

T207's are cool...no doubt...the interesting array of players...the rarities...the backs...BUT...the GOAT???????? Thanks for the sunday am laugh!!!!!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Birken

Factor in the fact that the T207 set has 15% more rare cards than the T20six Wagner...and I shake my head everyday why anyone would chase the T20six Wagner.

It is because they aren't Honus Wagner, they are common players. The t206 Doyle is 5-6 times scarcer than the Wagner, but sells for much less. Wagner was one of the 2 big names in the game at the time. The kids all wanted Wagner and Cobb, they didn't care about Lewis and Lowdermilk.

When I collected in the 80s, the t207 set was popular along with t205 and t206. Lewis and Lowdermilk were two of the top 10 cards in the hobby. Now they can't even make a top 50 list of prewar cards. The hobby has shifted from set collecting to superstars and rookies. T207 lacks the biggest stars in the game. No Wagner. No Cobb. No Matty. No Young. Only WaJo of the big 5. You can't be in the discussion for the best set when you don't have the players everyone wants.

[iowadoc77]

Appreciate the perspective but not even close.
Popularity- T206
Players included- T206
Colors/ esthetics- T206- but not nearly as nice as clean T205s
HOFers- T206
And I could go on.

As we see countless times, scarcity doesn’t always translate to value

Having said that, if you like T207, good for you. These are all opinions

[kmac32]

Love my T207 Cubs. Interesting cards and interesting backs in my opinion

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by rats60

It is because they aren't Honus Wagner, they are common players. The t206 Doyle is 5-6 times scarcer than the Wagner, but sells for much less. Wagner was one of the 2 big names in the game at the time. The kids all wanted Wagner and Cobb, they didn't care about Lewis and Lowdermilk.

When I collected in the 80s, the t207 set was popular along with t205 and t206. Lewis and Lowdermilk were two of the top 10 cards in the hobby. Now they can't even make a top 50 list of prewar cards. The hobby has shifted from set collecting to superstars and rookies. T207 lacks the biggest stars in the game. No Wagner. No Cobb. No Matty. No Young. Only WaJo of the big 5. You can't be in the discussion for the best set when you don't have the players everyone wants.

Yup yup!!! The reality of today’s hobby.

[2dueces]

Death and drab in the 1900’s? I’m not sure the whole world was drab. Fine silks from China. Luxury liners full of wonderful china. Impressionists such as Monet and Renoir painting vivid colorful canvases. The invention of the automobile allowing people to travel by their own means farther than they ever imagined. Opulent railcars for luxury never imagined. No I believe times weren’t drab for everyone. But I like the T207 set. Just not colorful enough to hold my interest long.

[frankbmd]

Reading period novels and non-fiction from the early twentieth century leads me to a different conclusion.

I’m quite sure there were plenty of early T card collectors, who would shudder at the prospect of time travel to 2009.

Would any of you seriously consider waking up tomorrow in 2109 without a second thought?

I might want to visit, but not without a round trip ticket.

[hcv123]

Firstly let me state that I am new to prewar cards and T207 wasn't originally on the list of what I was going to collect. A couple of fellow collectors suggested I take a look - I did and have decided to collect some - based on my impression of the appearance of the cards - not sure I agree with the whole background of the era you provide, but I do agree there is something visually captivating about some of the cards.
That all said - you state correctly that the market is determined (VERY imperfectly) by supply and demand. That agreed - I would suggest the consensus is while there may be a much lower supply of T207, there is also a much lower demand. No guarantee that time changes the demand - that is based upon the tastes and preferences of the generation. If demand remains constant or diminishes simple economics dictate that with an unchanging supply there will be downward price pressure. Only with increased demand and a static supply would there be upward price pressure.

[Cozumeleno]

I love T207s for many of the reasons you state with regards to the look. I think the small splashes of color in what is an otherwise really dark and mysterious look is pretty brilliant. They're certainly much rarer than the other two but I still rank T205 and T206 ahead of it for a myriad of reasons. All the popular ones - better players, generally more detailed artwork, and those colors in T205/T206 are fabulous.

T207 has a fine place among the three and it's one of the more unique pre-war sets. Frankly, it's one of my favorite sets. I just don't know that that necessarily makes it better than the others.

[Birken]

I appreciate all the comments so far, I love hearing other perspectives. Don't get me wrong, I think T205, T206 are beautiful sets among many others of the era. I get the argument around lack of stars in T207 making it less desirable, but I still find it to be a very unique set and very different from any other set of the day.

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[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Birken

Before you haters chime in...let me state my case.

Think about what the early 1900's looked like. Limited technology as we know it, death, disease, deplorable conditions, etc.

Ben

When you start off a post on this forum such as you did, it just doesn't go over to well.

First, were you alive in 1912 when the T207's were issued ? My parents, Aunt and Uncle were, and they certainly did not paint such a grim picture as your litany of negative events.
On the contrary, they would reminisce of a time (they were teenagers back then) when life in this country was vital and promising and people were very friendly.

Anyhow, I just could not understand where you were coming from with your preface to this subject of T207 cards. OK, here is where I'm coming from. I've been an avid Sportscard
set collector for more than 40 years. After I put together two T206 sets in the 1980's and 1990's, I began collecting T207's. I really enjoyed the challenge provided by this set, and
especially seeing and reading bios of ballplayers I had not known. For example, that "toughie", Louis Lowdermilk. Why did it cost me big $$$$ to get a BB card of a pitcher who had
a career W-L record of 4-5 ?

Anyway, I completed this T207 set, and eventually sold it with the exception of this Chet "Red" Hoff card. I kept Hoff for several reasons.....he was part of my Yankees collection....
at the time of his death (1998), he was the oldest former Major League ballplayer at age 107....and, I loved that he said the highlight of his career as a 20-year old pitcher, the first
batter he faced, was Ty Cobb, and Hoff struck him out on three straight pitches.


.



T-Rex TED

T206 Reference
.

[Birken]

Ted,

I very much appreciate your post. The title of this post was intentionally designed to be controversial and illicit the debate that has followed. The truth is, there is no one greatest T set or any other baseball set for that matter as it is all subjective to those who collect.

Your parent's experience (my grandparents experience) were vastly different. Neither of us were alive during that time. All of our current experiences are shaped by our past or some knowledge thereof. My grandparents experience (as Irish immigrants) was like the movie "Gangs of New York", so this is what shapes my perceptions of the early 1900s in America...not a place I would want to live in.

I agree it was a great time of hope and new beginnings in America, but it was also a time of shortened life expectancy due to disease, unsanitary conditions, the world on the verge of WW 1, etc. For the wealthy, the experience was obviously different.

The T207s imo capture that feel very well or at least my perception of that time. While I belive that T206, T205, etc are beautiful full color cards, I think sometimes that they are almost too colorful and don't truly reflect the experiences of the masses in the early 1900s which is why I am drawn to T207s and the fact that i find it boring looking at the same Cobb pose again and again and again through multiple Tobacco and E sets. I hope that I have clarified my position to your satisfaction.

I like to learn and I do not judge.

Ben

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[Birken]

Ps. Ted

Love the Hoff and love the Lowder milk stats you provided...it's why this set is so stupidly awesome and why I love it so much. Yes, I admit, begrudgingly, it would have been nice if Cobb was represented in T207

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[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Birken

Ps. Ted

Love the Hoff and love the Lowder milk stats you provided...it's why this set is so stupidly awesome and why I love it so much. Yes, I admit, begrudgingly, it would have been nice if Cobb was represented in T207

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Ben

I was happy not having to chase after a Cobb when collecting the T207's. I was pleased to get a Smoky Joe Wood, Harry Hooper, Buck Weaver, and others not in the T206 set.

Actually, I have a theory regarding the printing of the T207 cards. I don't think they were printed at American Lithographic (as most of the T-cards of that era were). If so, this
may explain why Cobb, CYoung, etc. were not featured in the T207 set.

Furthermore, another tobacco set was issued in 1912.....the Imperial Tobacco (C46) set....which features Eastern (International) League players. And, these cards were printed
using different shades of brown ink. I have tried to find out what printing firm produced these cards, because it may have been the same one that printed the T207 set.




T-Rex TED

T206 Reference
.

[garymc]

I am an addicted New You American collector !
The one thing I like about the t207's is the lack of information creating interesting mysteries. One is, why are all the NYA's in the recruit class except the Hoff which is in the Broadleaf class. I'm sure whatever the reason is might be why the Hoff card is so tough. I'm also enjoying the hunt for the Napoleon backs, they are really tough to find. I only have two of them.
I also love this set !!!

[topcat61]

I second your opinion. T207 is an amazing set beyond what we see on these cards. When I did research into this set, I found that the political climate and social attitudes of the era had seeped into this set directly affecting its outcome. The T207 and its players haven't given up all their secrets just yet and I haven't seen every card in person either - which makes it fun.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by garymc

I am an addicted New You American collector !
The one thing I like about the t207's is the lack of information creating interesting mysteries. One is, why are all the NYA's in the recruit class except the Hoff which is in the Broadleaf class. I'm sure whatever the reason is might be why the Hoff card is so tough. I'm also enjoying the hunt for the Napoleon backs, they are really tough to find. I only have two of them.
I also love this set !!!

I love the americans and nationals lingo! I think we should bring it back. Would love to hear people talking about the Cincinnati nationals or Chicago americans.

[Luke]

I love this set too. I really wish more people collected it because that adds to the fun of it for me. When I find a rare T206, I can share my excitement with dozens of friends who feel the same way about the set. When I find a rare T207, I have one friend who really loves them, and a handful that will humor me but don't like really care for them.

[garymc]

Originally Posted by Luke

I love this set too. I really wish more people collected it because that adds to the fun of it for me. When I find a rare T206, I can share my excitement with dozens of friends who feel the same way about the set. When I find a rare T207, I have one friend who really loves them, and a handful that will humor me but don't like really care for them.

Luke, please let me know when a NYA Napoleon comes around !!!!

[frohme]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Ben
[...]

Actually, I have a theory regarding the printing of the T207 cards. I don't think they were printed at American Lithographic (as most of the T-cards of that era were). If so, this may explain why Cobb, CYoung, etc. were not featured in the T207 set.

[...]

I can't help but agree with you on this Ted, primarily because we have evidence that the T207's (both Recruit and Broadleaf class) were printed on sheets both horizontally and vertically - similar to the Obaks (http://sep10.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=25005 - scroll to the bottom). I don't believe any of the current discussions or thinking around the T205/206 printing processes has suggested that link.

Just feels like (for that and other reasons) it wasn't the typical ATC/ALC production, so to speak. Regardless, there's still a lot to learn.

--
Mike

[frohme]

Originally Posted by Luke

I love this set too. I really wish more people collected it because that adds to the fun of it for me. When I find a rare T206, I can share my excitement with dozens of friends who feel the same way about the set. When I find a rare T207, I have one friend who really loves them, and a handful that will humor me but don't like really care for them.

Not so many folks get jazzed about a find of a bunch of T207's with odd backs, eh Luke?! Now if it'd only been Napoleon, or Anon 3 Recruits!

Like you, I wish there were more to share things T207 with, but it seems the many posts here are met with, well, meh... There are a few aficionados about, but not nearly enough. Maybe that's changing and more folks are taking a closer look. That would be great ... well, my wallet might beg to differ, but the more folks interested, the better for all.

--
Mike

[insidethewrapper]

The backs are better than the T206's. Nice write ups. Is it harder to complete a complete set of T206 or T207's ???

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by frohme

I can't help but agree with you on this Ted, primarily because we have evidence that the T207's (both Recruit and Broadleaf class) were printed on sheets both horizontally and vertically - similar to the Obaks (http://sep10.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=25005 - scroll to the bottom). I don't believe any of the current discussions or thinking around the T205/206 printing processes has suggested that link.

Just feels like (for that and other reasons) it wasn't the typical ATC/ALC production, so to speak. Regardless, there's still a lot to learn.

--
Mike

Hi Mike


Well, it's good to hear that you feel the same way I do regarding this set. I thought I was alone with my theory. Anyhow, I just haven't spent much time trying to research in depth
this set. The different T207 tobacco backs (different from T205/T206 backs) I think are the key to solving this mystery.



.



T-Rex TED

T206 Reference
.

[Birken]

Ted & Mike,

I too agree with your theories about this set. When you add in the Red Cross finds...Louisiana only distributed cards...it just gets weirder and weirder. I think sometimes that the T207 with Red Cross backs should almost have their own T classification similar to T214 Victory who used the same artwork of T206.One could argue that the same could be said for regular T207s and those T207s with the Red Cross back...just a thought.

BTW guys...love all the posts, pictures, information, knowledge, passion that you all have.

Ben

[Birken]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

The backs are better than the T206's. Nice write ups. Is it harder to complete a complete set of T206 or T207's ???

Good question Mike. I don't know to be honest, im not a collector of T206s, but the sheer size of T206 is daunting especially if you consider back and factory combinations.

But T207 has arguably 30% to 35% of its cards considered difficult to find. The lauded Lowdermilk is not so rare as many think.

Im gonna call it a tie

[Birken]

Originally Posted by Luke

I love this set too. I really wish more people collected it because that adds to the fun of it for me. When I find a rare T206, I can share my excitement with dozens of friends who feel the same way about the set. When I find a rare T207, I have one friend who really loves them, and a handful that will humor me but don't like really care for them.

Luke...you can share your excitement with finding a rare T207 with me any day of the week. I will humor you on the T206s lol.

Ben

[garymc]

Originally Posted by frohme

Not so many folks get jazzed about a find of a bunch of T207's with odd backs, eh Luke?! Now if it'd only been Napoleon, or Anon 3 Recruits!

Like you, I wish there were more to share things T207 with, but it seems the many posts here are met with, well, meh... There are a few aficionados about, but not nearly enough. Maybe that's changing and more folks are taking a closer look. That would be great ... well, my wallet might beg to differ, but the more folks interested, the better for all.

--
Mike

would you share what you know about Anon 3 Recruits, whats the difference between them and the Broadleaf Anon's ????

[rats60]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

The backs are better than the T206's. Nice write ups. Is it harder to complete a complete set of T206 or T207's ???

It depends on what you consider complete for t206. If it is the 520 or 522 card set then t207. If you are including Wagner or Doyle, then t206 by a mile. Doyle is far more difficult than any t207. The price of Wagner makes it impossible for most collectors.

[KMayUSA6060]

T207s secret weapon: Grover Hartley.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by Luke

I really wish more people collected it because that adds to the fun of it for me.

Be careful what you wish for. When I started putting together my T213-2 set 8 years ago, I could pick up low grade Type II Coupons for $25-$30. It seems that now there is more attention being paid to this set and there are several people who are attempting to put this set together. Those cards that were $25 8 years ago are now $60 to $100 dollars.

I love the T207's but the only ones that I collect are the ones with the Louisiana backs.

Rick

[obcmac]

Originally Posted by rats60

It depends on what you consider complete for t206. If it is the 520 or 522 card set then t207. If you are including Wagner or Doyle, then t206 by a mile. Doyle is far more difficult than any t207. The price of Wagner makes it impossible for most collectors.

Another T207 fan here. I don't think the Doyle is a tough card...it is a tough printing anomaly...a distinction worth noting I think. The difficulty of the t207s as a whole has made it quite the fun challenge. I do love the muted colors as well. Speaking of muted colors, I grabbed the slabbed Dooin to complement my Cheshire Dooin...looks like they used the border grey for his face on it.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Be careful what you wish for. When I started putting together my T213-2 set 8 years ago, I could pick up low grade Type II Coupons for $25-$30. It seems that now there is more attention being paid to this set and there are several people who are attempting to put this set together. Those cards that were $25 8 years ago are now $60 to $100 dollars.

I love the T207's but the only ones with the Louisiana backs.

Rick

Yeah, this is definitely a good point. There really aren't enough of the tough T207s to go around, so I probably should just be happy that not many other collectors are out there looking.

[Luke]

Mac, I love that Dooin with the crazy registration!

[tonyo]

I'm a fan of t207's and love this thread. The Speaker is one of my favorite pre-war cards.

A few years ago I tried to put together a Recruit subset of just the poses showing Bats, Gloves, or Belts (no portraits)... Just to give myself a small group to bite off. I don't think I made it all the way before I began to appreciate the portraits as well. I detoured and changed my subset chase to Recruit 2nd series (50 subjects as suggested by Tim Newcomb's article in VCBC #38 June 2004).

I didn't make it all the way on that one either when life got in the way and I had to take a detour.

I've never seriously attempted to include backs other than recruit, but based on the number I recall seeing while working on my recruit subsets, I suspect putting together a t207 set is a good bit more difficult than putting together a t206(520) set.

Here is my Speaker:

[oldjudge]

Ah, you mean other than Old Judge, T204, T205 and T206

[frohme]

Originally Posted by obcmac

Another T207 fan here. I don't think the Doyle is a tough card...it is a tough printing anomaly...a distinction worth noting I think. The difficulty of the t207s as a whole has made it quite the fun challenge. I do love the muted colors as well. Speaking of muted colors, I grabbed the slabbed Dooin to complement my Cheshire Dooin...looks like they used the border grey for his face on it.

Originally Posted by Luke

Mac, I love that Dooin with the crazy registration!

So do I - here's his red-handed twin (so to speak)



--
Mike

[rats60]

Originally Posted by obcmac

Another T207 fan here. I don't think the Doyle is a tough card...it is a tough printing anomaly...a distinction worth noting I think. The difficulty of the t207s as a whole has made it quite the fun challenge. I do love the muted colors as well. Speaking of muted colors, I grabbed the slabbed Dooin to complement my Cheshire Dooin...looks like they used the border grey for his face on it.

There is a good case to be made that it is a printing anomaly and not part of the set. However, even if that is the case, the price of the Wagner makes completing a t206 set impossible for most collectors.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by garymc

would you share what you know about Anon 3 Recruits, whats the difference between them and the Broadleaf Anon's ????

Hi Gary. A recent thread on T207 has a variety of details scattered throughout - mostly in the last half of the conversation. A number of details on the anonymous T207's. Earlier, more general T207 info, is also available.

Lots still to learn.
--
Mike

[clydepepper]

Ben - tell the truth. You work for UPS don't you? What other reason would you think that Brown has done something for us.

Just kidding of course...drab is beautiful...right?

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

Appreciate the perspective but not even close.
Popularity- T206
Players included- T206
Colors/ esthetics- T206- but not nearly as nice as clean T205s
HOFers- T206
And I could go on.

As we see countless times, scarcity doesn’t always translate to value

Having said that, if you like T207, good for you. These are all opinions

Obaks absolutely blow out T206 (and other tobacco sets) in terms of presentation.

[Nunzio11]

Perfect timing for a T207 thread. A friend I work with who is not a collector just brought in a handful of cards for me to take a look at. He got them from his father in law who had them in a box in the closet. There are a handful of beat up t205 and t206...nothing special. There were also 5 t207s. Not the best condition but definitely 1 - 2. Wajo recruit back, 3 broadleafs (Bauman, Herzog, and O. Wilson) and the star of the group a Buck Weaver anonymous factory 25 VA.

Does anyone know if there is a true pop report of Weaver with the anon 25 VA back?

PS I’ve read every thread here and whatever articles I could find online. Obviously there are not many past sales either.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by Nunzio11

Does anyone know if there is a true pop report of Weaver with the anon 25 VA back?

PS I’ve read every thread here and whatever articles I could find online. Obviously there are not many past sales either.

Congrats and very cool! Some tough customers in those cards, certainly. Hard to know exactly what the population of any card is, even when pop reports are clear ... which they are certainly not for Anon T207s.

In general, Factory 25 are harder to come by than the other Broadleaf-class cards, seemingly by a pretty decent gap. That said, some of the higher grade T207s (B/L class) are found with Anon Fac 25). The Weaver below is an solid mid-grade example.




--
Mike

[Birken]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Ben - tell the truth. You work for UPS don't you? What other reason would you think that Brown has done something for us.

Just kidding of course...drab is beautiful...right?

But UPS stands out don't they...tell me what uniforms Fed Ex where? Drab is Fab!

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[Birken]

The set just kind of sucks you in doesn't it tony...kind of like a black hole

Originally Posted by tonyo

I'm a fan of t207's and love this thread. The Speaker is one of my favorite pre-war cards.

A few years ago I tried to put together a Recruit subset of just the poses showing Bats, Gloves, or Belts (no portraits)... Just to give myself a small group to bite off. I don't think I made it all the way before I began to appreciate the portraits as well. I detoured and changed my subset chase to Recruit 2nd series (50 subjects as suggested by Tim Newcomb's article in VCBC #38 June 2004).

I didn't make it all the way on that one either when life got in the way and I had to take a detour.

I've never seriously attempted to include backs other than recruit, but based on the number I recall seeing while working on my recruit subsets, I suspect putting together a t207 set is a good bit more difficult than putting together a t206(520) set.

Here is my Speaker:

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[Birken]

Couldn't agree more guys. If T207 was as popular as other sets, commons would be out of reach for most and the Broad Leaf class would be selling for my first born. I'm glad there is less competition for the cards and so is my bank account as well as my wife

Originally Posted by Luke

Yeah, this is definitely a good point. There really aren't enough of the tough T207s to go around, so I probably should just be happy that not many other collectors are out there looking.

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[Leon]

Yes, popularity has its upside and downside. And if Wags and Cobb were in it it would be more popular, imo

Originally Posted by Birken

Couldn't agree more guys. If T207 was as popular as other sets, commons would be out of reach for most and the Broad Leaf class would be selling for my first born. I'm glad there is less competition for the cards and so is my bank account as well as my wife

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[Yoda]

Is it still an axiom that the Lewis without team emblem is more valuable than his emblemed brother? Can't find any recent info on recent sales, if there have been any.

[puckpaul]

i love this set. has a charm to it for sure. some of the cards are rough to look at, like the WaJo portrait (for a player with some great looking cards, this portrait does not do him justice!), but many of them are very cool and the rarity and difficulty of collecting them, for a major set, is distinctive.

i have a complete set, most of which i got as part of an old time collection which i bought with another person in the hobby. i have added the two Lewis variations and some of the other variations that were missing, like the Livingstons, the Austin insignia, etc. It was not easy to find the missing cards, and i was going to upgrade some cards but it gave me fits and i decided to just be happy with the set as is. i upgraded the Lowdermilk when there were quite a few of them for sale a few years back, but i haven't seen much of anything from this set lately in major auctions.

one thing i noticed is that most of the cards in my set are Recruit with very few Napoleon. not sure if that was how this collector put it together or if Recruits are much more common on the "common" section of the set?

[Luke]

Yeah, Recruits are very common and Napoleons are pretty tough, at least these days. A friend of mine who has been a dealer for a few decades told me that he would see Napoleons all the time like 20 years ago. He thinks a few people bought and stashed them away back then.