To Catch a Signed T206 Forger

[T206Collector]

As someone who has a significant investment (emotional and financial) in maintaining the integrity of authentic signed T206 cards, I wanted to collect all of the information about the recently identified signed Marquard forgery in one place, in a helpful chronology. I want it all to be at the top of the posting so that updates on the status of identifying the forger, if any, can be included in one post and at the top of a thread.

If you have additional information, please send it to me, or post it below, and I will add it to the chronology.

CHRONOLOGY

August 31, 2017
Authentic signed Marquard Hands at Sides sold in Sig Auctions to a member of the Net54 Community (id: theshleps):



http://auction.sigauctions.com/rube_...-lot62562.aspx

February 7, 2018
Unsigned Marquard Hands at Sides sold on eBay (item #362228869527) by seller "teri781":



https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ube-1913448029

https://www.ebay.com/usr/teri781?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

The seller left positive feedback ("THANK YOU") to the buyer, who has feedback between 10,000-24,999:




Spring/Summer 2018
Forger copies the authentic Marquard using a technique that lines the signatures up identically.






August 16, 2018

A "very reliable source" confirms that the autograph was authenticated by James Spence himself at the CleanSweep Auctions office. The photograph for the LOA was taken on that date; and on August 22, the item was authenticated and given the certification number #z86117:




October 11, 2018
Newly signed Marquard Hands at Sides sold in Clean Sweep Auctions, with full JSA LOA:



https://www.cleansweepauctions.com/i...tem=0000616093

Net54 member Clifford Franklin (Net54 id: Marslife) purchases the card and submits it for encapsulation at SGC.


November 13, 2018

SGC rejects the Marquard as "not a genuine example."



November 25, 2018

MarsLife seeks guidance from the Net54 community, wondering whether he purchased a fake Marquard signed T206:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262580

Manny (Net54 id: SetBuilder) cracks the code (and answers the OP's question in the affirmative), and other members of the Net54 community begin to add additional pieces to the puzzle.

Again, if you have additional information, please send it to me, or post it below, and I will add it to the chronology. There are too many witnesses to these events for additional information not to become available over time. As it does, I will compile it here.

[T206Collector]

So when I try to contact Teri781 through eBay about item number 362228869475 I get an error message, but when I try to contact Teri781 about any of the other items on this sheet I can see the item and ask a question. What is going on here - am I misreading the id?

https://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...o=362228869527

[T206Collector]

Manny also uncovered an apparent T206 Parent forgery:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262673

[oldjudge]

Did you talk to Steve Verkman to find out where he got the card?

[The Nasty Nati]

Add some more t206 forgeries to the list: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262673

[yanks12025]

I know you're focusing on the T206s and Leon said his source said they were not submitted by the same person as the T206.. But as pointed out by some, very strange that there was 8 Ted Williams signed cards authenticated right after the Rube M.

I made a thread on the autograph page just showing each Williams off.

[KingFisk]

The VCP record of that sale has a few different letters than what's in the screenshot above. Not sure if this helps.

[Jasonxmay]

Amazing work uncovering this. Makes me glad I just sold my entire collection of vintage signed baseball cards. I had been growing suspicious of the number of tough signed 33 Goudeys that were popping up more frequently. I have seen several in PSA, Beckett, and SGC slabs that I do not believe to be real, but I never took the extra step or looking at past auction sales of the unsigned cards. I expect if you keep digging this problem will be much deeper. Keep up the good work.

Jason

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

So when I try to contact Teri781 through eBay about item number 362228869475 I get an error message, but when I try to contact Teri781 about any of the other items on this sheet I can see the item and ask a question. What is going on here - am I misreading the id?

https://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...o=362228869527

I think because the listing has fallen off eBay's radar... usually 90 days... Watchpoint.com didn't have it either...

[Jobu]

Ebay removes your ability to click on and or search for older sales. However, if you have the exact link from when the sale was made, you can still see the page -- though it is without the pictures. This works back to at least early 2016, though at some point they may fully take pages down rather than just removing the index to them, I don't know because I don't have anything older.

Just a heads up for anyone who likes to over do it on the record keeping. (I quit saving links in favor of screenshots when I realized the pictures disappeared.)

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

I think because the listing has fallen off eBay's radar... usually 90 days... Watchpoint.com didn't have it either...

[lowpopper]

What is the current bounty on the Marquard forger?

[oldjudge]

I don’t collect these, but my heart goes out to those who do. This is a horrible situation for the hobby, but one that must be cleaned up as quickly as possible. Leon, can you make sure that Brian sees all this? My guess is that, given the recentness of some of these forgeries, that the FBI could find the forger or forgers pretty quickly.

[jfkheat]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

So when I try to contact Teri781 through eBay about item number 362228869475 I get an error message, but when I try to contact Teri781 about any of the other items on this sheet I can see the item and ask a question. What is going on here - am I misreading the id?

https://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...o=362228869527

My eBay name shows up on VCP as f***f. I have never used Worthpoint so I'm not sure what it shows as there. I have owned one T-206 card which I listed for sale here 2 1/2 years ago. I can send someone a card that I bought so they can check Worthpoint to see what my user name shows up as on there. I can assure everyone that the f***f is not me.
James

[T206Collector]

I've got a lot of feelings today - anger, sadness, frustration, deep deep depression...

...but, I also want my entire collection vetted by Manny and all of the sleuths out there. I don't want to own well made garbage. I want the real thing. And I want it to stand up to any test of authenticity available. I've spent the last several hours combing through Worthpoint on any T206 I got from an auction house in the last several years, and if anyone wants to play along you are more than welcome.

I'm going to be spending a little more time identifying and preserving the provenance of the items I own, including date I picked them up. Most of my cards were purchased in 2008 and earlier. But, including the Sullivan, I do have some real-time exposure on some of my more recent (and expensive) pickups.

I still love my signed T206s, just not the ones signed by Frank Abagnale, Jr.!

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by jfkheat

My eBay name shows up on VCP as f***f. I have never used Worthpoint so I'm not sure what it shows as there. I have owned one T-206 card which I listed for sale here 2 1/2 years ago. I can send someone a card that I bought so they can check Worthpoint to see what my user name shows up as on there. I can assure everyone that the f***f is not me.
James

Those user names are randomized or scrambled by eBay. They don't correspond to the actual user name.

[mrvster]

sucks!!! and now makes me suspicious of 206 autographed cards

[ALBB]

Incredible detective work on this

[jfkheat]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Those user names are randomized or scrambled by eBay. They don't correspond to the actual user name.

I know that. My eBay user name is the same as my user name on this and several other forums. My user name always shows as f***f on VCP as the buyer.
James

[Fred]

PSA and SGC have policies for false authentication. How does this work out for autographs?

Do you want to put some pressure on to find all of the people responsible?

If PSA, SGC and others (JSA) have some type of guarantee then hold them to the guarantee. Hit their bottom line. My guess is that it will do a couple things:

• Get them motivated to find the source of the problem
  
• Make them think twice about just slabbing something based on ONE highly regarded persons opinion

What would be interesting to find out is if there has been a HUGE increase in the number of submissions for signed T-cards in the past few years when compared to the prior years.

How many T206 cards were submitted? How many T205 cards were submitted? I would think that there would have been all kinds of T-cards submitted for authentication, not just T206.

PSA has a pop report for "just cards". Do they also have a pop report for "signed cards"? It would be interesting to see what cards have been authenticated and who the authenticator is. Also, how has the population increased over the years.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Those user names are randomized or scrambled by eBay. They don't correspond to the actual user name.

I've always thought that the two letters that they do show are actually part of the username. Am I wrong about that?

[Laxcat]

Does anyone else think an “inside man” would be needed for this sort of forgery?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Fred

PSA has a pop report for "just cards". Do they also have a pop report for "signed cards"?

Yes, there is a link at the top of the set pop report that will take you to the bottom, where the PSA/DNA signed card pop report is.
https://www.psacard.com/pop/t206/#DNAPop

However, this is only for all Red Flips and Blue Flips more than 2 years old. Newer blue flips just have "Trading Card" at top; but for vintage signed cards, most would be currently submitted with red flip dual authentication service.

[mckinneyj]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

I think because the listing has fallen off eBay's radar... usually 90 days... Watchpoint.com didn't have it either...

The feedback item immediately below it is accessible and I suspect slightly older as it has a slightly lower item number - they differ in only final 3 digits - 527 vs 475 with the 475 still being accessible but the 527 not.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by mckinneyj

The feedback item immediately below it is accessible and I suspect slightly older as it has a slightly lower item number - they differ in only final 3 digits - 527 vs 475 with the 475 still being accessible but the 527 not.

Exactly. Something else is at play here.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

I've always thought that the two letters that they do show are actually part of the username. Am I wrong about that?

It is, however I notice they differ on some auctions, but are changed back in VCP

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by mckinneyj

The feedback item immediately below it is accessible and I suspect slightly older as it has a slightly lower item number - they differ in only final 3 digits - 527 vs 475 with the 475 still being accessible but the 527 not.

That buyer on the Lajoie (ending in 475) only had 197 feedback score so probably not our perp...

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

What is the current bounty on the Marquard forger?

Dead or alive, the bounty remains the same: Justice!

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Dead or alive, the bounty remains the same: Justice!

You can pretty much guarantee they are well known in the hobby.
Ya think some hobo is sending in signed t206s and it's going unnoticed?


Greed is a shame, and public humiliation, forced restitution and a beat down would be warranted

[HobokenJon]

The authenticator in question in my view tossed his reputation out the window with this letter to the court on behalf of Mastro -- after Mastro had been convicted.


And think about it . . . How would anyone know if a purported autograph of an obscure ballplayer from 100+ years ago was real, even in the absence of forensic evidence that it was fake?

[Jobu]

Not so sure I trust the sig on that letter.

Originally Posted by HobokenJon

The authenticator in question in my view tossed his reputation out the window with this letter to the court on behalf of Mastro -- after Mastro had been convicted.




And think about it . . . How would anyone know if a purported autograph of an obscure ballplayer from 100+ years ago was real, even in the absence of forensic evidence that it was fake?

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Most of my cards were purchased in 2008 and earlier.

Not to be the bearer of more bad news, but there were lots of fakes before 2008 as well.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Not so sure I trust the sig on that letter.

I kind of had the same thought. I would think in a few hours one with some technical savvy and a notary embosser could forge those letters all day long.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

Not to be the bearer of more bad news, but there were lots of fakes before 2008 as well.

Sorry, yes. Didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. Just that the dollars at stake for a signed Rube Marquard back then was sub-$400. My first two signed T206s of Rube cost under $100 on eBay in 2004.

[topcat61]

I have a few questions for the grading companies and the auction houses... but they're either complicit or incompetent -or probably both.

1) How long to these grading companies spend on examining an autographed card on average?

2) who grades them?

3) what qualifications do they have?

4) Besides the forger, is anyone held legally responsible? How about for authenticating and grading a forged card?

I would think that the FBI should look at this and I'd probably start with SGC first since it looks like they've been authenticating most of these cards.

I'd also start looking at the auction houses and grading companies with a forensic financial investigator. My gut feeling is that these grading companies are giving preferential treatment to the auction houses over collectors and dealers because they're the ones giving the most amount of money. I also suspect that these grading companies are spending an inadequate amount of time on each card because either A) the company doesn't have a copy of the signature on file or B) they're behind on submissions.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by topcat61

My gut feeling is that these grading companies are giving preferential treatment to the auction houses over collectors and dealers because they're the ones giving the most amount of money.

I can think of one historical parallel.

Credit rating agencies during the run up to the financial crisis: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/cre...ng-controversy

"The "Big Three" global credit rating agencies—U.S.-based Standard and Poor’s (S&P), Moody’s, and Fitch Ratings—have come under intense scrutiny in the wake of the global financial crisis. Meant to provide investors with reliable information on the riskiness of various kinds of debt, these agencies have instead been accused of exacerbating the financial crisis and defrauding investors by offering overly favorable evaluations of insolvent financial institutions and approving extremely risky mortgage-related securities."

"Most criticism of credit raters centers on the "issuer pays" model—employed by each of the Big Three—whereby a bond’s issuer pays the rating agencies for the initial rating of a security, as well as ongoing ratings. The public (and investors) can then access these ratings free of charge. The popularity of this model grew in the 1970s, following years of "subscriber pays" dominance, in which investors paid for the ratings instead. Issuers, who needed certain ratings in order to sell their bonds to regulated financial institutions, may have been more willing to pay for these services than investors were, according to a 2010 OECD report [PDF]."

"Critics argue that the ratings agencies failed to take into account the potential for a decline in housing prices and its effect on loan defaults. The agencies’ inflated ratings also failed to account for the greater systemic risks associated with structured products, and they were accused of sacrificing quality ratings to win a bigger share of the lucrative sector. By 2006, Moody’s had earned more revenue from structured finance—$881 million—than all its 2001 business revenues combined."

[murphy8276]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Ebay removes your ability to click on and or search for older sales. However, if you have the exact link from when the sale was made, you can still see the page -- though it is without the pictures. This works back to at least early 2016, though at some point they may fully take pages down rather than just removing the index to them, I don't know because I don't have anything older.

Just a heads up for anyone who likes to over do it on the record keeping. (I quit saving links in favor of screenshots when I realized the pictures disappeared.)

There is a trick to it. Since ebay changed the way they file these you can use this as a shortcut that should work and then click on Original Item button
(far right).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ITEM#HERE

[murphy8276]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

So when I try to contact Teri781 through eBay about item number 362228869475 I get an error message, but when I try to contact Teri781 about any of the other items on this sheet I can see the item and ask a question. What is going on here - am I misreading the id?

https://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...o=362228869527

This means the item was removed from ebay. Likely returned or removed for a certain reason.

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by murphy8276

There is a trick to it. Since ebay changed the way they file these you can use this as a shortcut that should work and then click on Original Item button
(far right).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ITEM#HERE

This link is bad.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[swarmee]

You need to replace his words at the end with the item number in the browser url line.

[topcat61]

Now the latest, and a lot of the people on here and elsewhere know this was going to happen eventually -

https://prewarcards.com/2018/12/06/f...oHFOQV5WcQ64oE

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Now the latest, and a lot of the people on here and elsewhere know this was going to happen eventually -

https://prewarcards.com/2018/12/06/f...oHFOQV5WcQ64oE

Since this site is his source it's probably not necessary to link to his article