OT - Best 3B ever?

[EvilKing00]

So I know a lot of people consider Mike Schmidt the best 3B ever. Some have a few other ideas... Schmidt was my opinion as well, till just now.

I was just looking through some all time players stats and I have most deff changed my mind and im surprised.

IF we are keeping A rod off the list - cause his numbers are the best

Chipper Jones IMO is the best 3B of all time.

Hes 2d in RBI to A rod
hes 4th in HR Schmidt has 548 and chipper has 468
hes 5th in hits with 2726 - Schmidt has just over 2200
hes 2ed in runs behind arod
jones average is 303 - compared to Schmidt 267

So if arod is fine by you... yea hes got the best numbers, chipper is right behind him and look out Beltre is coming up quick.

As a die hard met fan, who jeered larry every chance I could get and who got tix to city field for chippers last day out of total respect for his greatness I can say I know he should be a 1st ballot HOF but didn't realize hes the best 3B ever.

[39special]

Schmidt was a much better fielder.He won 10 gold gloves.Chipper had 0
Chipper was a great player,but IMO Schmidt was the greatest all time 3rd baseman.

[bnorth]

For me it is Wade Boggs by a mile.
7 100 run/200 hit seasons in a row
4 batting titles in a row with 5 total
5 years in a row of leading the league in OBP
6 years in a row leading the league in IBB this is a crazy stat considering he was not a HR hitter.
3010 hits
578 doubles
.328 lifetime BA
He is my all-time favorite player so I might have a little(LOL) favoritism going on.

[drcy]

Realize that Schmidt played in a different offensive time than Jones. Schmidt won 6 of his 8 home run titles while hitting under 40 home runs each. He won two titles while hitting 36. His power numbers are much more impressive compared to Jones than comparing the numbers one to one. The 70s-80s was a different power era than the 1990s-2000s.

Unlike many mother's basement statisticians, I also think fielding is part of the game and Schmidt is better than Jones and Boggs in that area.

I'd pick Schmidt.

A fair knock against Schmidt is he didn't have a good batting average, but he definitely was a power hitter. And that he won 3 MVPs and was in the top 10 in voting 9 times (that's half the number of years of a lengthy career), says he was considered top by his contemporaries.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by drcy

Realize that Schmidt played in a different offensive time than Jones. Schmidt won 6 home run titles while hitting under 40 home runs each. He won two titles while hitting 36. His power numbers are much more impressive compared to Jones than comparing the numbers one to one.

I'd pick Schmidt.

yea Schmidt had 80 more HR than chipper, but chipper average is 303 - compared to Schmidt 267 big difference.

Also another stat - Chipper was 3rd all time in total bases, with 4755, behind arod and brett, Schmidt right behind chipper with 4404

AND chipper had the 2de best OBP ever behind, Arod - with 401 life time OBP that's pretty awesome, Schmidt was 9th all time for 3b with 380.

Look over all the numbers its sadly really impressive, to hope one day im talking about Wright like this, lol

[colco]

To go along with what Drcy said about the era difference, ops+ attempts to account for this and Schmidt leads 147 to 141 over Jones (for those who don't know it measures your offense compared to a league average baseline of 100.)
WAR also gives an advantage to Schmidt who tops 100 on his career with Jones being at about 85 wins above replacement. Similar on offense and much better defensively, I'll take Schmidt any day of the week.

Jack

[Peter_Spaeth]

Schmidt, with Mathews and Brett also in the discussion.

[39special]

You also have to look at the defensive numbers. Schmidt was so much better.

[39special]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Schmidt, with Mathews and Brett also in the discussion.

Also Brooks Robinson

[Jim65]

Schmidt was the best 3B I ever saw.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Schmidt. Power and defense.


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[brewing]

Originally Posted by colco

I'll take Schmidt any day of the week.

And twice on Sunday, it's not even close.

[EvilKing00]

jones played 95 games more than Schmidt - looking at their total bases jones has 350 more - and even if you divide the number of total bases by their AB jones is still better. Basicly giving you the total bases per AB of each player though its real CLOSE - .527 - .529

given the HR difference as well as the average difference - id rather have jones.

[Brian Van Horn]

The best third basemen of all time is a short list:

Jimmy Collins
Pie Traynor
Brooks Robinson
Mike Schmidt

If strictly offensively, the Braves have two nominees to add:

Eddie Mathews
Chipper Jones
George Brett (one gold glove in 1985)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Baseball reference rates Schmidt first and Jones fifth. And Pie Traynor 58th.

[pgellis]

Jones played 2 full seasons in LF. Schmidt played 220 more games at 3B than Chipper. To me, it's Schmidt.

[EvilKing00]

also chipper is 3rd all time in OPS behind arod and Miguel Cabrera with 930, Schmidt is behind chipper with 908

Chipper is also 3rd all time in doubles with 549 behind brett and boggs, Schmidt is 15 with 408

Chipper is also 2ed all time in runs 1619 behind yep u guessed it arod Schmidt is 15 with 1506

Chipper is also 2all time in RBI with 1623, yea arod is 1st again, and Schmidt is tied for 3rd with brett with 1595

[25801wv]

Chipper Jones has 1 MVP, 1 Batting Title, and never led the league in Home Runs or RBI.
Mike Schmidt has 3 MVP's, 8 Home Run Titles, 4 RBI Titles, 10 Gold Gloves, and a World Series MVP. How is that even close?

[Mikehealer]

Brett and Schmidt, in that order, and no need to consider anyone else. At least that's the way I see it.

[frankbmd]

Oliver "Ghost" Marcelle

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by 25801wv

Chipper Jones has 1 MVP, 1 Batting Title, and never led the league in Home Runs or RBI.
Mike Schmidt has 3 MVP's, 8 Home Run Titles, 4 RBI Titles, 10 Gold Gloves, and a World Series MVP. How is that even close?

well looking at the eras, and the whole ped thing, I don't think jones did ped's, BUT lets look at some of the mvp's of jones era... Did they do PEDs?

Jones was on a field with monsters -

in 1999 jones won an mvp

douring jones playing time other MVP's in the NL- cammineti, walker, sosa, kent, bonds 4x, pouljos 2x,

[oldphil]

Schmidt in my book. Don't forget that he had to play in front of the toughest crowd in baseball. Larry Wayne Jones doesn't come close.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Brooks Robinson finishes 1st, 2nd and 3rd in defense. Brett,Schmidt and Chipper in that order at the plate.

[z28jd]

I think batting average is a horrible stat to zero in on for Schmidt. He hit for power and had over 1500 walks. That means he was getting on base plenty, enough to lead the league three times in OBP. He has a higher OBP(just barely) than Nap Lajoie, who hit .338 career.

So despite the low average, he still got on base at a high clip, he is the best power hitting third baseman and he was top rated defensively. He is the best third baseman.

Pie Traynor might get knocked down by modern stats, but when they named the all-time team for the first century of baseball(1869-1969) he was the third baseman and Jimmy Collins was second, both ahead of Eddie Mathews right near the end of his career.

[earlywynnfan]

I think Evil is putting up a valiant attempt here, but he's fighting a losing battle.

I'm more interested in what a few members are thinking by picking Brett over Schmidt?? I'm a big Brett fan, but to me 3B is the position where there's very little room for argument.

Ken

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I think Evil is putting up a valiant attempt here, but he's fighting a losing battle.

I'm more interested in what a few members are thinking by picking Brett over Schmidt?? I'm a big Brett fan, but to me 3B is the position where there's very little room for argument.

Ken

I don't think there is a question on any infield position:

Gehrig, Hornsby, Wagner, Schmidt

[Bocabirdman]

I Don't Know!

[vintagecpa]

As a lifetime Braves fan, Chipper was great, but he was never the feared hitter or solid fielder that Schmidt was. Chipper had a bad leg injury his rookie season that took away some of his quickness moving forward. I always wondered what type of numbers he would have put up if he would had that extra speed during his career. I would put both Schmidt and Brett ahead of Jones. Probably a few others also.

[KCRfan1]

Brett is the only PLAYER to exceed 3000 hits, 600 doubles, 100 triples, 300 home runs, and 200 stolen bases. Add in his rbi's, walks, runs scored, and a post season batting average of .337 ( 10 hr's and 23 rbi's ), while winning a batting title in three different decades. Ended his career hitting over .300. Brett was far more of a complete offensive force than Schmidt ever was, and Brett was easily the better performer in post season play. I'll take Brett over Schmidt every time.

[almostdone]

It seems to me there are two different questions here trying yo be answered at the same time.
1. Who was the greatest 3rd baseman of all time? Or,
2. Who was the greatest hitter who played 3rd base?

Two very different categories IMO.
Drew

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by almostdone

It seems to me there are two different questions here trying yo be answered at the same time.
1. Who was the greatest 3rd baseman of all time? Or,
2. Who was the greatest hitter who played 3rd base?

Two very different categories IMO.
Drew

Well, based on offense Brett would be the clear winner here. Many have talked about Schmidts defense, but he is not the best defensive 3rd baseman as that title belongs to Brooks. So how Schmidt is viewed as the best 3rd baseman is beyond me, since Schmidt is neither the best in offense or defense at 3rd base. Brett would be the easy choice as the best hitter, and best ever at the position.

[Joem36]

Schmidt...

[Bigdaddy]

It's hard to argue with Schmidt, however if I was a GM and had to pick one 3B to play his career with my team, I'd pick Brett. His all-around play, intensity, and knack for the big hit in the big moments makes him my pick.

[cincyredlegs]

I think most people go with who they saw as a kid or adult. I get that. I guess they way I look at it is if you were an owner and could pick any player to play 3B, who would it be.

If you look strictly at defense, it is hands down Brooks Robinson.
If you look strictly at offense, it is probably Schmidt with Brett a close 2nd.

I never saw Brooks play in his prime but he would be my vote. What he lacked in offense compared to Schmidt and Brett, he made up in defense. Ask the 70 Reds about hitting to him in the series. I am not sure if you could ever calculate it but it would be interesting to know how many runs he saved by his sensational play at 3B.

Mark

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Brett is the only PLAYER to exceed 3000 hits, 600 doubles, 100 triples, 300 home runs, and 200 stolen bases. Add in his rbi's, walks, runs scored, and a post season batting average of .337 ( 10 hr's and 23 rbi's ), while winning a batting title in three different decades. Ended his career hitting over .300. Brett was far more of a complete offensive force than Schmidt ever was, and Brett was easily the better performer in post season play. I'll take Brett over Schmidt every time.

Brett is another bad example of average over OBP. Schmidt had a .380 OBP and .527 slugging. Brett was .369 and .487, so no, he was not a better hitter. His slugging was worse and he didn't get on base as much as Schmidt. Defensively Schmidt was better, so he was the better hitter and fielder. He also played over 2200 games at third base, while Brett played 1692, with over 1000 games started elsewhere besides third base. That is a good chunk of his career not at the position you're ranking him at.

[Harliduck]

I would say Schmidt as well...BUT if I was a GM starting a team and could have anyone I wanted to build around, I would choose Brett for many reasons. Honestly, and maybe because I am on the west coast, I would never have thought to even put Chipper Jones in any "greatest" player argument. Nothing stands out to me.

[glynparson]

Schmidt first Brett second

For the record I hate Schmidt and I love Brett but to pretend it's even a discussion is an injustice to Schmidt. He was an amazing fielder. He need not be brooks Robinson to be an amazing fielder. He also hit for a ton of power in an era with huge stadiums and un juiced baseballs. Brett was great Schmidt is one of a handful of greatest to ever play.

[Harliduck]

A quick google and found this statistical breakdown from Scott Kendrick and he ranked the Top 10 in his opinion...I agree with it -

1. Mike Schmidt
2. George Brett
3. Eddie Mathews
4. Brooks Robinson
5. Wade Boggs
6. Chipper Jones
7. Pie Traynor
8. Frank "Home Run" Baker
9. Ron Santo
10. Scott Rolen



Ok...maybe not the Scott Rolen selection...haha

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Brett is another bad example of average over OBP. Schmidt had a .380 OBP and .527 slugging. Brett was .369 and .487, so no, he was not a better hitter. His slugging was worse and he didn't get on base as much as Schmidt. Defensively Schmidt was better, so he was the better hitter and fielder.

That post echoes my thoughts. Schmidt was not just slightly better OPS; he was somewhat better than Brett on base wise and was significantly bettter than Brett in slugging.

I am actually surprised by the case being made for players other than Schmidt. IMO, third base is one of the "settled" positions where there is not much real debate to be had. The baseball-reference.com metrics list (which take emotion out of the equation) on that site show Schmidt as clearly the best of all-time at the position.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_3B.shtml

[25801wv]

Only Babe Ruth led his league in Home Runs more times than Mike Schmidt. Just think about that stat.

Ray Dandridge

[Iron Horse]

Schmidt was the complete all around 3rd baseman of all time. Glad i was able to see him play while i was growing up.
Peter, now you do need to get the rookie

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Brett is another bad example of average over OBP. Schmidt had a .380 OBP and .527 slugging. Brett was .369 and .487, so no, he was not a better hitter. His slugging was worse and he didn't get on base as much as Schmidt. Defensively Schmidt was better, so he was the better hitter and fielder. He also played over 2200 games at third base, while Brett played 1692, with over 1000 games started elsewhere besides third base. That is a good chunk of his career not at the position you're ranking him at.

You take a team of Schmidt and I'll take a team of Brett and I will beat you more often than I lose. I appreciate OBP, and both players excelled at getting on base. Schmidt struck out twice as much as Brett, and Brett walked more than he struck out. I'll take a .300 hitter with a great OBP because he could move runners and produce runs, starting a rally or keep rallys going. Schmidt might walk, he's on base ( which you highly value ) but not really moving runners, more likely to strike out.

[UnVme7]

Best pure hitter- Brett, Chipper
Best power- Schmidt
Best defense- Brooks, Beltre

I've been able to watch every game Beltre has played in the last 4 yrs and his defensive ability is unbelievable, and extremely underrated. I don't care how many GG's he has.

[Sean]

It's Schmidt, easily. Brett is probably second, but not a close second, then Mathews and Boggs. Chipper is in the top ten, but not near these guys.

And for the best pre-war 3rd baseman, Home Run Baker is well ahead of Traynor.

Mike Schimdt not the best could not do it during the 70's against the Reds with Pete Rose at third base , what about Eddie Matthews

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I am actually surprised by the case being made for players other than Schmidt. IMO, third base is one of the "settled" positions where there is not much real debate to be had.

I agree. I think the only player who has a stronger hold on a position is Rogers Hornsby.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

You take a team of Schmidt and I'll take a team of Brett and I will beat you more often than I lose.

I am not trying to be a smart ass in any fashion, but where is the evidence to back up that claim? Is that just a made up claim pulled out of the air?

People have cited hard numbers in this thread, and you argue that a team of Bretts would beat a team of Schmidts. Where is the "proof" or analysis of such a claim? That doesn't seem at all possible when Schmidt has superior numbers. The baseball-reference.com metrics take emotion out of the equation and say it is not real close between the two players.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I am not trying to be a smart ass in any fashion, but where is the evidence to back up that claim? Is that just a made up claim pulled out of the air?

People have cited hard numbers in this thread, and you argue that a team of Bretts would beat a team of Schmidts. Where is the "proof" or analysis of such a claim. That doesn't seem at all possible when Schmidt has superior numbers. The baseball-reference.com metrics take emotion out of the equation and say it is not real close between the two players.

+1

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Evil - Why don't you put a poll in the original post. That way people can vote. I am curious to see who would receive the most votes.