Did Babe Ruth dominate baseball at the same level Wayne Gretzky did hockey?

[Zone91]

Did Babe Ruth dominate baseball at the same level Wayne Gretzky did hockey?

For me NO one ever dominated a sport like Wayne did hockey....he finished with 2857 points and NO one else has ever made it to 2000 points...he is also the only one to have had three 200 point (or more) seasons!!

He also won 4 Stanley cups.

Post # 3

[Zone91]

Wayne has 40 regular season records and 15 playoff records!!! I do not believe any athlete in the 4 major sports (baseball, football, hockey and basketball) has ever dominated a sport in such a strong way.

Post # 4

[CharleyBrown]

I don't really think it's fair to compare dominance in different sports.

One could say that Babe Ruth changed the way baseball was played, and he really took baseball to another level in terms of popularity.

There is no doubt that Wayne was a dominant hockey player, he definitely didn't have the impact that Babe Ruth had.

To me, the only player who can compare in terms of bringing their sport to another level of popularity is Michael Jordan, and even with that, it's tough to compare in terms of sheer dominance.

[Zone91]

CharleyBrown

This is not a thread to disrespect Babe Ruth at all just to find out if someone believes if there was ever a athlete that ever dominated in such a way beyond EVERYONE else in his sport. I also thought that it would be a fun debate to inter cross 2 different sport LEGENDS and compare them.

Post # 5

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Did Babe Ruth dominate baseball at the same level Wayne Gretzky did hockey?

For me NO one ever dominated a sport like Wayne did hockey....he finished with 2851 points and NO one else has ever made it to 2000 points...he is also the only one to have had three 200 point (or more) seasons!!

He also won 4 Stanley cups.

Post # 3

He also couldn't have lifted Howes jock strap, let alone Ruths.

[rdwyer]

Wayne Gretzky played when the goalies had thin leg pads. That's why he scored so much.

[z28jd]

I think the most important question you must first answer is, who were the Yankees versions of Dave Semenko and Marty McSorely that gave Ruth all the room to do what he did? Without knowing that first, I can't properly answer the first question

[MVSNYC]

Zone- Babe dominated more than Gretzky ever did, your question should be reversed...try to wrap your head around the fact that some years, Babe hit more HR's than other TEAMS did. check out his slugging percentage and the list goes on. not even a comparison.

You need a new voting selection above: Yes, not even close.

[AMBST95]

Mario was a better player than Gretzky and was a contemporary. He was more productive when on the ice and did not have the caliber of teammates that Gretzky had. 2.005 points per game over 17 seasons. Wayne Gretzky was a great player but he didn't dominate the sport in his era the way that Ruth did his. This really isn't even a debate.

[jp1216]

I love this debate. I'm a Gretzky fan - but he did have Messier and Kurri nearly from day one. Different times, different sports, but the debate is fun. Gretzky did influence his game, but I agree that Ruth transformed his more.

[Bpm0014]

I'm not a hockey fan in the least bit, and I may be the biggest baseball fan in the world, but I'm going to give maybe the most crazy stat in sports ever...

Wayne Gretzky is the career goals leader. If you take away every single one of his goals, he's STILL the NHL's all time leading scorer. I didn't believe it, lost a bet, and had to find out the hard way. But look it up.

[Zone91]

I am not talking about influence on the game I am only talking stats wise!!!

Wayne to me is FAR and beyond the athlete that no one else even comes close to in hockey...almost a 1000 points ahead of anyone else. That is like having 5200 hits in baseball...way more than Pete Rose had.

For me Babe would have had to have well over 1000 home runs and 5000 hits to be even close to Wayne's statistic dominance.

Post # 6

[Zone91]

Look at this very very closely:

Link:

http://statshockey.homestead.com/alltimepoints.html

Post # 7

[Sean]

Keep in mind also how important Ruth was to baseball. The White Sox had just thrown the World Series in 1919, and the details of their betrayal were slowly coming to light in 1920. This was potentially a disaster for baseball. It was at this time that Ruth began to really dominate the game. 54 home runs in 1920, 59 in 1921.
Ruth's unprecedented power captured the public's imagination at just the right time, distracting people from what was playing out in a Grand Jury in Chicago. It's not as if Ruth planned it that way of course, but even by coincidence he did save baseball from what could have been a public reletions disaster and redefined how the game would be played forever after.
I know Gretzky was the best ever when he came along, but I don't think he changed the way the game would be played the way the Babe did.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Zone- Babe dominated more than Gretzky ever did, your question should be reversed...try to wrap your head around the fact that some years, Babe hit more HR's than other TEAMS did. check out his slugging percentage and the list goes on. not even a comparison.

You need a new voting selection above: Yes, not even close.

+1. Gretzky would need to have scored more points or have more goals than entire teams to come close to Ruth.

[Zone91]

Food for though NO one will EVER beat Wayne's stats ever in hockey...someone would need to have 300 points (No one but him has ever had a 200 point season) for almost 10 straight years or 150 points for almost 20 years. No one even gets 150 in their prime anymore let alone 300 points in a single season.

Babe's records will be broken for the most part some time down the road...again NO one will EVER break Wayne's stats!!!

Post # 8

[Sean]

And Ruth began his career as a pitcher for 5 years. Gretzky never played goalie in the NHL.

[Zone91]

Sean

Hahahaha I love the Babe but I am honest with myself Wayne's records are NOT going to EVER be beat!!!

Post # 9

[TUM301]

2 words, Babe Ruth. The other 2 words, Bobby Orr !!

[Sean]

In Gretzky's defense, I don't believe the Babe ever owned a T206 Wagner.

[billyb]

Gretzke scored most of goals when the league was watered down. There were expansions, minor league goal tenders were in the net, many defensemen were also on minor league caliber.
It was common to have 8 to 5, or 10 to 7 cames. If he played during the original six days, he would have been good, but he would not look so pretty today.
When the european invasion happened in the NHL, then the defenses and goaltending started to tighten up. You can't go by Gretzke stats, it was a time of some very weak teams. It was so bad, it wasn't even fun to watch.

[nsaddict]

Your polls are getting stranger? What's next, which HOF'er chewed the most tobacco during doubleheaders? However, being a hockey fan, Gretzky's career stats are incredible. But I always felt he was overrated as a player. His teammates "protected" him that aided his stats greatly. If he had played in the 50's, he would have NEVER had the same success as he would have been knocked around game after game. In my opinion (although a shorter career due to injuries), Bobby Orr was THE most dominant player of all time. He excelled on defense and more so on offense and was a brawler. Sort of like Ruth ,multi talented, pitcher/hitter. As a side note, his rookie cards are WAY overpriced as millions and millions were produced.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Your polls are getting stranger? What's next, which HOF'er chewed the most tobacco during doubleheaders?

I believe that would be Lenny Dykstra.

[Zone91]

billyb

Actually he played agaisnt some of the best players in the world:

Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Paul Coffey, Marc Messier (when they no longer played together), Patrick Roy, Ron Francis, Joe Sakic, Ray Bourque, Brett Hull, Luc Robitaille, Martin Brodeur, Bryan Trottier, Adam Oates and many many others!!!

Post # 10

[Rob D.]

Nobody ever misspells Babe Ruth's name. Case closed.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Sean

I believe that would be Lenny Dykstra.

Man I have been asleep awhile if Lenny Dykstra is in the HOF.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Man I have been asleep awhile if Lenny Dykstra is in the HOF.

Sorry, I missed the HOF reference.

[billyb]

Everyone's stats were inflated during that time. I have seen all of Yzerman's career and he was great, but his talents today, would be greatly deiminished, as well as Gretzke's.
Remember, the World Hockey Association was active from 1972- 1979, and many stars, including Bobby Hull went over to the WHA.
In 1974, six teams were added, and in 1979, when the WHA folded, the NHL picked up 4 more of their teams, 21 totaled. It wasn't until 1889 and later, when the Soviets, and other Europeans came into the league. Wayne had already gathered a vast majoity of his points.
I know Gretzke didn't start until '79, but you can see how the league was watered down when he started his career.
I do not want to take away anything from Gretzke, I have met him, talked to him, and he is a very nice guy.
But my vote, as best hockey player of that era, was Orr, who changed the style for defensemen, the offensive defense men.
I am also old enough to have seen Howe and Richard play, against teams that they played on a regular basis. Just six teams, best in North America, and they seen you often enough to know all your moves and how to play you.
Comparing Gretzke's stats to Ruth, Ruth would have had to play half of his career against minor league players to get a good comparison.

But on that note, was Gretzke dominate in the NHL for his time.......yes.

[prewarsports]

I played both Hockey and baseball in College and still play both sports and follow them actively.

If anyone genuinely thinks there was a better hockey player than Gretzky, then they are just trying to stir the pot. Orr was basically a forward with a D next to his name in the scorecard and Howe was a great player for a LONG time that had probably half the skill Gretzky did in a much bigger body frame. Mario Lemieux had all the potential in the world but he is the Ted Williams of Baseball. He could have been the best but for injury, but the fact is he WAS injured a lot and he simply did not achieve the level of career success he could have otherwise. Gretzky was the best hockey player who ever lived, period. there is no debate.

Babe Ruth similarly was the greatest Baseball player who ever lived and anyone who thinks otherwise is usually biased towad fielding, or "leveling the field" toward early black players etc.

They are by far the two most dominant athlete of all time, and others like Jordan are not even close, he ushered in a new era of Basketball but hardly dominated the way Ruth and Gretzky did. Chamberlain would be a better comparison in that Sport.

It is hard to say who was more dominant, Socially and "Impact on the game" it was Ruth. Purely stat wise it was Gretzky. The early numbers for Ruths home runs dont translate to Hockey at all, you would need to talk about Runs and not Home Runs if doing that analysis and Ruth didn't outscore entire teams by himself. Home Runs are NOT the same as goals or assists in hockey.

Rhys

[MVSNYC]

"In 1920, Ruth would not only eclipse his mark of 29 homers, he would blow it into outer space. He slugged a miraculous .847, a mark not since approached by anyone. The entire Red Sox team hit only 22 homers, while Ruth hit 54--about 15 percent of the American League home runs--that year. To compare, consider that Barry Bonds' 46 homers in 1993 equaled 2 percent of the National League's home runs. Ken Griffey Jr.'s 45 homers that year for the American League also equaled 2 percent.......In 1921, Ruth hit 59 homers. The second-place finisher in homers was Ken Williams, who hit 24. "He was like an Everest in Kansas," says ABC commentator and columnist George Will. "In just the third year in the league he already held the career record in home runs (137) and went on to break his own record 577 more times." The gap between Ruth and the second-place finisher was even wider than the year before, when Ruth hit 54 homers to George Sisler's 35."

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfe...wings_6087/p/1

[T206Collector]

Ask me in 80 years.

It's apples and oranges, but Gretzky was never a goalie. Ruth was a Hall of Fame, World Champion pitcher. It's not even close. There's even a debate about whether Gretzky was the greatest hockey player ever in this thread. There is no debate that Ruth was the greatest baseball player -- 80 years after he retired.

[dabigyankeeman]

The fact that Ruth was a great pitcher before becoming a position player would make Gretzky have to be a great goalie for a few years before moving to another position.

Also, did Wayne ever score more goals than an entire TEAM???

[rhettyeakley]

Apples to Oranges.

In hockey Bobby Orr was great, but if we are talking about goalies most goalies in the 1960-early 70's were still employing an upright style of playing, it wasn't until later that the butterfly style (which is far more effective) was Universally employed. While it is true Gretzky played when they had slightly smaller pads than they do today it was far more similar to today's style of play than what Howe, Hull and even Bobby Orr played with. Also Bobby had health problems that limited his career. The only other hockey player that was like Gretzky was Lemieux, however his health problems are well chronicled. My vote for best hockey player ever is Gretzky with little debate.

As far as Gretzky vs Babe Ruth... People need to stop comparing goals in hockey to home runs. That comparison makes no sense. A home run, while great for your team is not the only way to score. In reality in baseball the home run is more of a novelty than it is the end all and be all of what a batter is looking to do, which is to score runs. While it is certainly the easiest way to throw a number on the scoreboard as it only requires one swing, if home runs we're all that counted we would view players like Adam Dunn as being better than some other players like Jeter that are obviously all-around better ballplayers. Did Babe Ruth have more RBI's than an entire team? Did he score more runs than an entire team? The answer is no and IMO while it is obviously problematic to compare hockey to baseball I think people are making odd comparisons.

All that being said I think Ruth in baseball is more significant than Gretzky in hockey.

[glchen]

The other thing to note is that Gretzky, from Adrian's stats, has nearly a thousand more points than the next one on the list. However, in terms of goals, the difference isn't nearly as great with "just" a ~90 goal advantage over Howe. The difference in points is from his assists which is ~700 more than the next highest in assists and nearly 900 more than the next highest in points. In hockey, multiple players can be counted as assisted on a single goal. Therefore, the comparison to baseball is very tough. It would be similar to saying that if you hit a single to advance the baserunner, who eventually scored, then you deserve an RBI for that.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Zone- Babe dominated more than Gretzky ever did, your question should be reversed...try to wrap your head around the fact that some years, Babe hit more HR's than other TEAMS did. check out his slugging percentage and the list goes on. not even a comparison.

You need a new voting selection above: Yes, not even close.

+1....

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by billyb

Everyone's stats were inflated during that time. I have seen all of Yzerman's career and he was great, but his talents today, would be greatly deiminished, as well as Gretzke's.
Remember, the World Hockey Association was active from 1972- 1979, and many stars, including Bobby Hull went over to the WHA.
In 1974, six teams were added, and in 1979, when the WHA folded, the NHL picked up 4 more of their teams, 21 totaled. It wasn't until 1889 and later, when the Soviets, and other Europeans came into the league. Wayne had already gathered a vast majoity of his points.
I know Gretzke didn't start until '79, but you can see how the league was watered down when he started his career.
I do not want to take away anything from Gretzke, I have met him, talked to him, and he is a very nice guy.
But my vote, as best hockey player of that era, was Orr, who changed the style for defensemen, the offensive defense men.
I am also old enough to have seen Howe and Richard play, against teams that they played on a regular basis. Just six teams, best in North America, and they seen you often enough to know all your moves and how to play you.
Comparing Gretzke's stats to Ruth, Ruth would have had to play half of his career against minor league players to get a good comparison.

But on that note, was Gretzke dominate in the NHL for his time.......yes.

Come on man, you talk about how greatly diminished his stats would be, this and that, and claim you're from Hocketown (which is def. MN ) and you can't even spell his name right

Note, this is all in jest

[Sean1125]

I would say Michael Jordan dominated basketball at beyond the level any one has ever dominated before... Sadly he was before my time but I've watched him play and jeez... Just jeez.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

Wayne Gretzky played when the goalies had thin leg pads. That's why he scored so much.

It was a more offensive era in hockey, but even still nobody was at his level.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by jp1216

I love this debate. I'm a Gretzky fan - but he did have Messier and Kurri nearly from day one.

And just as importantly, he had Semenko & McSorley!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by AMBST95

Mario was a better player than Gretzky and was a contemporary. He was more productive when on the ice and did not have the caliber of teammates that Gretzky had. 2.005 points per game over 17 seasons. Wayne Gretzky was a great player but he didn't dominate the sport in his era the way that Ruth did his. This really isn't even a debate.

Finally, somebody who agrees with me regarding Mario! I'm a huge Gretzky fan - meeting him is my all-time sports thrill - but Mario was better.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by AMBST95

Mario was a better player than Gretzky and was a contemporary. He was more productive when on the ice and did not have the caliber of teammates that Gretzky had. 2.005 points per game over 17 seasons. Wayne Gretzky was a great player but he didn't dominate the sport in his era the way that Ruth did his. This really isn't even a debate.

Actually Mario is second to Gretzky in Pts per game avg over their careers. 1.921 to 1.883 with those two being significantly ahead of Mike Bossy in 3rd place.

[dabigyankeeman]

I think its stupid in hockey that in overall player scoring an assist counts the same as a goal.

Yes, I know how important an assist can be, but its still NOT the goal. I would give a point for a goal and half a point for an assist.

[nsaddict]

Originally Posted by dabigyankeeman

I think its stupid in hockey that in overall player scoring an assist counts the same as a goal.

Yes, I know how important an assist can be, but its still NOT the goal. I would give a point for a goal and half a point for an assist.

Gotta disagree completely, many times the assist should be worth more than the goal. Frequently the goal is the easy part. Hanging around the net and waiting while your teammates are busting their butts getting you the puck, enter Phil Esposito , a great example. His teammates would have excelled without him but without them he never would have had those stats. Statistics can be be VERY deceiving. I apologize since this is a vintage baseball board. See what you started Zone

[dabigyankeeman]

And in baseball you cant get an RBI without a runner getting on base in front of you and managing to score when you get a hit. Sure, the guy gets a run, but we dont combine runs and RBI's together to form a stat to see who the scoring champion of baseball is.

[glenv]

People have now hit more HRs than Ruth both in a season and career. And people were hitting HRs before Ruth, he didn’t really change that game all that much. However, there is no doubt that he was great and dominate.

However, I’m surprised by the lack of credit given to Gretzky. He didn’t just play, he innovated. He would watch game after game and map out where the puck went, then he went to those areas. He had the vision set up shop behind the opponent’s net or know where to skate to after a face-off. He also redefined how teams killed penalties. Before Gretzky, coaches would put out defensive players to kill time. He would attack and turn the penalty kill into an offensive opportunity. Also, his move to the LA Kings gave hockey a national popularity that it never had before.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by glenv

People have now hit more HRs than Ruth both in a season and career. And people were hitting HRs before Ruth, he didn’t really change that game all that much. However, there is no doubt that he was great and dominate.

Oh boy, I'm afraid that just opened up a whole new can of worms with that statement. Ruth's legacy wasn't just HR's btw...

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Oh boy, I'm afraid that just opened up a whole new can of worms with that statement. Ruth's legacy wasn't just HR's btw...

Ruth's legacy was more than HR's, but he wouldn't be in this discussion if he hadn't hit the homeruns he did.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Ruth's legacy was more than HR's, but he wouldn't be in this discussion if he hadn't hit the homeruns he did.

True

[EvilKing00]

ruth dominated the sport in the same way during his playing days, BUT Gretzky numbers are way more dominant overall and that will last forever.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Did Babe Ruth dominate baseball at the same level Wayne Gretzky did hockey?

For me NO one ever dominated a sport like Wayne did hockey....he finished with 2857 points and NO one else has ever made it to 2000 points...he is also the only one to have had three 200 point (or more) seasons!!

He also won 4 Stanley cups.

Post # 3

Adrian you are assuming that we care about hockey!