Another shill? You tell me.

[Bugsy]

42 bids on 23 items. 100% of the activity with this Power Seller. Oh, and feedback of 1.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...Buyer_ViewLink

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

That looks like some BS.

[Runscott]

I always cringe when a '1' feedback i.d. bids on my items. If it turned out that they were bidding on many of my things, and ONLY my things, I would send them a message saying "Sorry" and cancel all their bids. You really can't allow that and retain trust from legitimate bidders.

[D. Bergin]

Unless he's retracting bids or not paying for items he's won, I really don't see the issue.

Everybody has to start somewhere, and sometimes it's as an introduction to Ebay from a seller they are already familiar with from doing off ebay deals with.

I certainly wouldn't start canceling bids unless I thought I was going to start getting stiffed by this guy.

It looks like this seller has over 4000 completed auctions in the last 15 days alone and another 2000+ active. I wouldn't be to concerned about 1 guy who has bids on 23 of those items over a 30 day period out there.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Unless he's retracting bids or not paying for items he's won, I really don't see the issue.

Everybody has to start somewhere, and sometimes it's as an introduction to Ebay from a seller they are already familiar with from doing off ebay deals with.

I certainly wouldn't start canceling bids unless I thought I was going to start getting stiffed by this guy.

It looks like this seller has over 4000 completed auctions in the last 15 days alone and another 2000+ active. I wouldn't be to concerned about 1 guy who has bids on 23 of those items over a 30 day period out there.

That's probably all it is. Makes perfect sense - someone who's never used ebay contacts an ebay seller, does an offline deal, then bids exclusively on that seller's stuff, but now through ebay rather than offline. I get it.

[Bugsy]

I have never heard of any collector buying exclusively from one seller. I think it takes much less of a stretch in imagination to think a consignor is shilling his lots.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I have never heard of any collector buying exclusively from one seller. I think it takes much less of a stretch in imagination to think a consignor is shilling his lots.

If people are this concerned maybe they should contact the seller and see if he can match up the bids with a consignor.

Bid history only goes back 30 days. I still don't understand this shilling theory that says a buyer must spread his money throughout the entire ebay system evenly.

I don't know if this guy is a shiller or not, but you've never had a 30 day span you've only bought from one seller?

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

If people are this concerned maybe they should contact the seller and see if he can match up the bids with a consignor.

Bid history only goes back 30 days. I still don't understand this shilling theory that says a buyer must spread his money throughout the entire ebay system evenly.

I don't know if this guy is a shiller or not, but you've never had a 30 day span you've only bought from one seller?

Have I ever placed 42 bids on 23 lots exclusively with a single seller? No, I have not. I have never bid that way nor heard of anyone else following that pattern. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Have I ever placed 42 bids on 23 lots exclusively with a single seller? No, I have not. I have never bid that way nor heard of anyone else following that pattern. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Well, you titled the thread with a "?" mark. I gave my opinion. You should contact the seller if you are concerned.

What about an auction house? You've never placed 42 bids on 23 lots?

I don't know. It really doesn't seem too excessive to me. Especially with a seller with this many lots up.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Well, you titled the thread with a "?" mark. I gave my opinion. You should contact the seller if you are concerned.

What about an auction house? You've never placed 42 bids on 23 lots?

I don't know. It really doesn't seem too excessive to me. Especially with a seller with this many lots up.

I guess the question was rhetorical. I meant this as a public service annoucement for potential bidders to be aware of several red flags. I actually chose not to bid on a few lots after I saw this pattern.

And no, I have NEVER bid exclusively with anyone.

[Runscott]

Chris, I think most everyone got it.

I'm not taking anything away from Dave - I believe that generally the people who will defend questionable things like this are just very honest people who are also very trusting. Nothing wrong with being a 'cup half filled' person.

Personally, I think this example looks so much like blatant shilling that if PWCC doesn't retract the bids, or at least explain them, it might as well be shilling. And being 'busy' with thousands of auctions isn't really an excuse. Big sellers of vintage cards need to be watching the only vintage board that is worth watching - we are the pulse of the hobby and I'm sure he's aware of that.

I once complained about ridiculous shipping charges, but left out the auction house name. Within an hour I had an email from the head of the company, apologizing for the mistake and sending a revised invoice. This was someone who doesn't EVER comment here. Yes, they are reading our posts.

But let's see if the +1 guy actually wins anything, and if so, where that stuff ends up. I'm sure there are a few crime dogs aground who will take up the chase.

[wolf441]

I wasn't aware of the seller until the last post because I can't log onto ebay from work, but having watched quite a few of the PWCC T206 auctions over the past week, the ending prices don't seem to be out of line with what I'd expect for cards with the grades presented. A few of them seemed high, but there were some that finished lower than I thought they would. I didn't see any evidence of the type of obvious shilling that has been evident on some other large ebay sellers' auctions...

[smtjoy]

42 bids on 23 items. 100% of the activity, pretty much says it all.

I find it funny that some just gloss over stats like that or just dont care. I am guessing those are the collectors who only plan to part with their collection when they die so the price they pay makes no difference to them.

It does matter to me as someone who buys and sells various parts of my collection. I didnt really understand how much the whole shilling thing is a factor till I tried to sell some of my cards and well I got crushed. Then looking over my purchase log of who and when I purchased the cards and the ones I was losing the most money on all seemed to come from a couple of the big sellers. If it had happened on a few cards then fine its just a bad day selling but after selling over 500 cards and these trends were still going strong you realize just how much shilling is affecting prices. Also I really think shilling is used more to prop up the value of cards vs to increase value, so a comment like I though prices were normal or near VCP can also be very misleading. Like I said sell a couple cards and see how you do, it was an eye opening experience. Also when I sell cards I can hardly get any early bidding at all but somehow certain consignment houses initial bidding always seem to be run up to near 80% of VCP on every card. Again if it happened here and there fine but not nearly everything they sell.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

42 bids on 23 items. 100% of the activity, pretty much says it all.

I find it funny that some just gloss over stats like that or just dont care. I am guessing those are the collectors who only plan to part with their collection when they die so the price they pay makes no difference to them.

It does matter to me as someone who buys and sells various parts of my collection. I didnt really understand how much the whole shilling thing is a factor till I tried to sell some of my cards and well I got crushed. Then looking over my purchase log of who and when I purchased the cards and the ones I was losing the most money on all seemed to come from a couple of the big sellers. If it had happened on a few cards then fine its just a bad day selling but after selling over 500 cards and these trends were still going strong you realize just how much stilling is affecting prices. Also I really think shilling is used more to prop up the value of cards vs to increase value, so a comment like I though prices were normal or near VCP can also be very misleading. Like I said sell a couple cards and see how you do, it was an eye opening experience. Also when I sell cards I can hardly get any early bidding at all but somehow certain consignment houses initial bidding always seem to be run up to near 80% of VCP on every card. Again if it happened here and there fine but not nearly everything they sell.

Well said Scott. It is quite obvious what the bidder is up to shown in the first post of this thread. There is almost 0% chance a person with a feedback of 1, and all of those other bad signs, is just a coincidence. Sorry, I am not buying it. If that bidder were bidding on my stuff he would have a lot of explaining to do.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Have I ever placed 42 bids on 23 lots exclusively with a single seller? No, I have not. I have never bid that way nor heard of anyone else following that pattern. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

I respectfully disagree. I have sold many times on Ebay and have had people like something of mine and then they search through my other items and they like most of what I have and bid on many items. I have had many people actually contact me in the past and ask my permission to bid since they have such low feedback. Most of my items back then were not baseball related, but that really does not change anything.

[sdkammeyer]

Yup, smells fishy to me as well.

Also, having too many auctions to keep track of who is who and what is going on is NOT a viable excuse. (Probstein posted something about that in another thread, and it's popped up again concerning this seller).

I had to call eBay the other day to have my limits raised ..... again .... 3rd time in 3 months. I understand this because I am new. But one is only "new" for so long. This time I asked what these limits were all about and when would they be lifted. I have had over 400 transactions in the last 3 months with 100% positive feedback, a GREAT DSR, and I just got the "power seller" icon (which means, amongst other things, that I have shipped over 90% of items within 24 hours of payment receipt). So I am thinking that I don't need limits. I have paid eBay over $2,000 in fees in the last 90 days, my poop is in a group, let's just lift the limits altogether.

They told me that EVERYONE has limits. No matter who you are. Their explanation was "so that we can be sure that you are not getting overwhelmed and you can keep everything under control as your eBay transactions rise". Ok, I get that ......

If I sell too much stuff this month and cannot keep things straight, forget to ship items, or start sending items to the wrong people (you get the idea) then maybe I really am selling too much on eBay and the limits are in place to help keep that from happening. The same should apply for shilling. If I'm selling so many items that I cannot see that my auctions are being shilled by one particular person then I have probably overstepped my boundries, I am selling too many things, and my limits need to be lowered.

IMO if it's not up to eBay to make sure all my packages get sent out in a timely manner to the right people, then it's not SOLELY their responsibility to make sure my auctions aren't being shilled.

I don't take consignments so obviously I am using myself as an example there .... but I hope my point came across.

[D. Bergin]

Has anybody contacted the seller to find out if the bidder is also a consignor of the items he is bidding on?

I don't think I recall ever saying it was a valid excuse to ignore a consignor shilling your auctions, because a particular seller is too big. I think I alluded that because the seller has such a large number of items up for auction at any given time, It's very possible a newbie never left that sellers page to bid elsewhere. Maybe because of budget, time, trust issues, familiarity or any number of other issues.

I do have a hard time believing nobody on here has picked one particular auction or seller to buy from in a one month period and not bid anywhere else. Must be a lot of deeeep pockets.

That's assuming this guy hasn't bought anywhere else. That is just one seller on Ebay he is following. Ebay is only one venue that happens to have lots of different sellers.

I've funneled lots of buyers to Ebay through my two retail websites, who were not previously Ebay bidders. It probably hurt me in the long run, but a lot of them started bidding on MY auctions first, because they were familiar with me, or my material.

I don't have a horse in the race, and I don't know if this seller is a serial shiller, he may very well be. If he is you should be making very loud noises about it and getting his attention.

I know I'm just small fry, but I would be very upset if somebody publicly accused ME of shilling. It's a serious accusation but the word seems to be thrown around at the slightest hint of a particular bidder not fitting into whatever a persons pre-conceived notions of what a bidders psychology should be.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by wolf441

I wasn't aware of the seller until the last post because I can't log onto ebay from work, but having watched quite a few of the PWCC T206 auctions over the past week, the ending prices don't seem to be out of line with what I'd expect for cards with the grades presented. A few of them seemed high, but there were some that finished lower than I thought they would. I didn't see any evidence of the type of obvious shilling that has been evident on some other large ebay sellers' auctions...

Shilling involves the artificial raising of a bid price. Regardless of where the item ends up selling (relative to historical sales), it is illegal in some jurisdictions and unethical everywhere.

[sdkammeyer]

My apologies ... if this comment was directed towards me

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I don't think I recall ever saying it was a valid excuse to ignore a consignor shilling your auctions, because a particular seller is too big.

I simply meant that since it has been mentioned in this thread that the seller has 2,000 auctions going right now, in my opinion, that's no excuse for said seller to say "oh i have too much going on to notice those things"

Again, my apologies if I came across the wrong way, or if you took it the wrong way. It seems that we agree on my points.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sdkammeyer

I simply meant that since it has been mentioned in this thread that the seller has 2,000 auctions going right now, in my opinion, that's no excuse for said seller to say "oh i have too much going on to notice those things"

Again, my apologies if I came across the wrong way, or if you took it the wrong way. It seems that we agree on my points.

Yep, if he's somehow managed how to make a living with straight auctions, when almost no one else can (and ebay discourages that business model), then he knows what's going on.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by sdkammeyer

My apologies ... if this comment was directed towards me


I simply meant that since it has been mentioned in this thread that the seller has 2,000 auctions going right now, in my opinion, that's no excuse for said seller to say "oh i have too much going on to notice those things"

Again, my apologies if I came across the wrong way, or if you took it the wrong way. It seems that we agree on my points.

No Steve, absolutely no offense taken, and I don't think you were the only one to mention it. It wasn't directed at you in particular.

I do think, if the seller knows of a consignor who is shilling his auctions, he should be able to sniff that out, no matter how big they are. If it takes somebody else bringing up their suspicions with them, they should do their due diligence and follow up on that.

I do know from experience that every oddball bid or bidder doesn't always make a shill. Bidders are strange sometimes, and to pretend to predict how they all act, based on your own bidding history, is not quite in touch with the reality, much of the time.

There's things Ebay can do to make bidders more comfortable in their experience, that they refuse to put into practice. I'd like Ebay to limit the number of bid retractions one is able to place. Maybe one or two every couple months for legitimate mistakes. Serial bid retracting hurts both bidders AND legitimate sellers. If somebody has a lot of retractions they are either shilling auctions, or interfering with auctions of other sellers for their own amusement or curiosity. Unfortunately Ebay thinks every bidder is a good bidder and good for their bottom line, no matter how much chaos they create.

[T205 GB]

I do believe the seller is a board member. I hope he chimes in

[sdkammeyer]

Thank you Dave ... I honestly didn't mean to offend anyone. My purpose was to point out that eBay puts these restrictions/limits on sellers to make sure they (sellers) can keep their sh*t straight..... and although I do not buy a whole lot from eBay I applaud them for that.

And .......

Originally Posted by T205 GB

I do believe the seller is a board member. I hope he chimes in

I hope they do!!

Shilling is one reason I (personally) will NEVER buy from anyone who takes consignments and sells on eBay.

If you are taking consignments, get yourself an auction house and quit exploiting eBay. That's my personal opinion, it is up for debate, but it is what it is. I tend to spend quite a bit (lately) on my collection but I refuse to buy from an eBay seller that is selling on consignment.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by sdkammeyer

Thank you Dave ... I honestly didn't mean to offend anyone. My purpose was to point out that eBay puts these restrictions/limits on sellers to make sure they (sellers) can keep their sh*t straight..... and although I do not buy a whole lot from eBay I applaud them for that.

And .......




I hope they do!!

Shilling is one reason I (personally) will NEVER buy from anyone who takes consignments and sells on eBay.

If you are taking consignments, get yourself an auction house and quit exploiting eBay. That's my personal opinion, it is up for debate, but it is what it is. I tend to spend quite a bit (lately) on my collection but I refuse to buy from an eBay seller that is selling on consignment.

Well, for transparency sake let me be the first to tell you that I do regularly sell consignments that are sent to me to sell on Ebay, though they are probably not items in your field and I don't exactly deal in a high volume.

Ebay, IS an auction platform, and it's a tool meant to be "exploited" as you say.

I'd be curious as to why you hold that stance on the matter?

How is it any different then a seller offering their own stuff, but not consignments? I do think it's important to let your consignors know, that under no circumstances should they bid in their items in your auctions.

[sdkammeyer]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I'd be curious as to why you hold that stance on the matter?

How is it any different then a seller offering their own stuff, but not consignments? I do think it's important to let your consignors no, that under no circumstances should they bid in their items in your auctions.

I agree with the latter (obviously) that no consigners should be bidding on their own items. Enough said on that matter.

eBay opens the door for that (shilling) to happen and I'm pretty sure that it has been proven that it does in fact happen (probstein and others)

If there is ANYTHING that I wish to purchase for my personal collection, and it is listed on eBay by a seller that takes consignments, there is a 99.9% chance it will pop again from a "private seller" ..... or pop up off off eBay. I would rather get it then.

I am sure I am in the minority, but if there is even a hint, or one iota, of a possibility of a shill bid happening, I just will not do it. ESPECIALLY from a seller who is selling for someone else and stands to make more if the money goes bigger "than normal".

Yes, as a personal seller (mostly of bathroom exhaust fans and military surplus) I could hire people to shill bid my auctions ..... but the facts are the facts .... those who sell for others and take a percentage of the sale have a higher opportunity and a higher rate of shill bidding.

It's just the law of averages.

And, if you take consignments, good for you. I wouldn't recommend announcing that to others. Just my 2 cents. If that's only worth a penny to you or anyone else ..... well then that's fine. But that is why I, personally, will not buy from eBay sellers who announce that they accept consignments.

Again, these are only my personal opinions .... I am picky with my own money and will not give away one extra dollar if I do not have to ..... thats just me.

There is enough bullsh*t going on in this industry with fake cards/autos .... and people purposely "aging" cards to sell that I like things to be as up-and-up as possible.

If I personally have a nice card in nice condition, I will sell it myself. No need to pay someone to sell it for me. Again, that's my opinion, and we are all entitled to one

I have seen MANY MANY cards sold by brand-new eBay sellers that do just fine. And that happens every single day. In my own little mind there is no reason to consign a card on eBay. Again, that's just me.

I am pretty sure we can agree that auction houses are a bit different. Mr. Kissner is a friend of mine (Black Swamp Find.... yes I live in Defiance, Ohio and there are more than a dozen net54 members who can vouch for that)..... he knows nothing about cards, absolutely nothing. He was charged with getting the most out of those E98's as possible for his entire family and he did it the right way. Finding a specialist, taking their advice, and finding a private auction house that will promote "the find" the correct way. THAT ..... in my tiny mind, is the reason to consign a card/cards. If he would have asked me to sell them for him on eBay I would have declined.

Everyone has their own opinion.

[cobblove]

Does the bidding on the 1965 PSA 8 namath look ok? Same bidding with the 1961 Fleer Bill Russell PSA 9, he stoped bidding now that the head is maxed? And on a few other 1961s, he stops once the high bidder is maxed?
Great cards for sure.

0***n( 335)

[tschock]

Do you think the amount of sniping has any effect on shill bidding? If no one sniped, then the shill bidder has more of a chance to up the bid without getting stuck. If everyone sniped, then I would think the shill bidder's risk of getting stuck would be much greater since they have less information in which to gauge the amount of interest. Assuming of course that the shill bidder doesn't want to get stuck with the item.

[cobblove]

I think you can stick it to the guy bidding on the 1961 fleers by putting in a large bid right now and then just wait 1 hour for him to put his 10 bids in bidding you up. And then just retract your bid after he does that.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Fleer-B...item20cf04162b

[bjk4343]

Hi All,

First post here. This caught my eye because I ran into the same thing with a the same seller on a recent auction. Card went for double what is was selling at in Dec.... Maybe the consignor bidding up his own stuff? I had a max at $110 which was my cap on it. To add, I don't think PWCC is involved. I see it as a issue with any big consignment houses. It would be nearly impossible to track all the bids they get, and who they get them from.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350705589112...4.m1426.l2649=


http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...Buyer_ViewLink

Bryan

[Brent Huigens]

To all who have contributed to this thread:

First of all, I thank everyone for the detective work (honestly) and simply ask that folks PLEASE reach out to us directly when these concerns arise so we can act. Yes, we are members of Net54 but we do not follow the posts on a regular basis.

I do agree that the size of our auctions is no reason to avoid policing the bid, and we never have voiced this excuse. We are actively watching the bid but admittedly watch the higher dollar auctions more closely. Any help from the collecting community is greatly appreciated and we will respond to any flags which are forwarded.

In this case, the buyer in question did indeed participate with with only us for that month. These auctions were not manipulated in any way, and despite what some members think, we do have a good handful of buyers who bid largely with our auctions only and subsequently show 80%+ activity with only our user ID. The buyer was located in Singapore (we ship internationally) and they did buy 2 items in the #1 auction and have returned to buy another 5 items in our most recently #2 auction. Everything is legitimate.

What concerns me most is how negative things have become. Any time a curiosity is noticed, folks instantly jump to conspiracy. And for good reason... I do believe the hobby has some bad apples. That said, we are firmly against bid manipulation of any kind and are the only auction house (that I'm away are of) that actively policies their items and takes action against consignors if impropriety is noticed. Especially in recent years, we have tightened the ship considerably and can confidently say that our eBay auctions are the cleanest venue in the hobby.

Please, do not hesitate to reach out to me directly should any curious bidding behavior be noticed with any item in a future auction. Feel free to post any concerns to the Net54 board if you'd like... not trying to keep anything hidden. I just ask that we please be notified and given a chance to take action before an auction ends, which in our opinion is in everyone's best interest.

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions
brent@pwccauctions.com
510-725-7853

[thehoodedcoder]

Hi

1) how would the seller know anything about the eBay user without them winning.

2) why wouldn't they just have a friend or neighbor schiller for them?

Kevin

[T205 GB]

That's how to get cheap cards. Open a new eBay acct and bid with a large seller on a lot of items and you guys will say shilling and stay away and I will get cards cheaper. Thanks for the advice guys

[jbbama]

There is so much of this going on at EBAY its sickening......EBAY could care less, it drives up there fees and they just look the other way. Anytime i see a cosignor auction, i just keep going. EBAY knew exactly what they were doing blocking bidder id's.

[Runscott]

I know what type of response this is going to invite, but...

I'm still not seeing how this business model can work legitimately. Thinking about it as it applies to ebay, I'm also starting to wonder if I'm a bit naive when it comes to non-ebay auctions and consignor shill-bidding.

It's very obvious from reading some of the 'bidding stories' here, that bidders get caught up in the moment and bid more than they had planned (e.g-see underbidder post regarding the recent ebay Chicago Union Giants auction).

Certainly consignors are aware of the above, which is why shilling works. If consignor shilling is what makes the business model work, then the business is illegitimate.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

That's how to get cheap cards. Open a new eBay acct and bid with a large seller on a lot of items and you guys will say shilling and stay away and I will get cards cheaper. Thanks for the advice guys

+1. That is a funny idea.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

+1. That is a funny idea.

Except for the part where the cards aren't cheaper.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by jbbama

Anytime i see a cosignor auction, i just keep going. (

I completely understand the point you are making about the drawbacks of buying from consignors on eBay. The flipside, though, is that there are so many sketchy eBay sellers looking to rip buyers off through reprints, bait and switch, not shipping items, etc. that it has allowed the major consignors on eBay to flourish because people feel more comfotable buying from them.

I am not dismissing the problem of shilling with the consignor auctions, but there is just so much fraud or attempted fraud on eBay that people like PWCC and Probstein attract a sizable following for their auctions. At least when you buy from people like PWCC or Probstein, you know you are going to get what you paid for and what was advertised.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Have I ever placed 42 bids on 23 lots exclusively with a single seller? No, I have not. I have never bid that way nor heard of anyone else following that pattern. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

yep smelly fishy

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by jbbama

There is so much of this going on at EBAY its sickening......EBAY could care less, it drives up there fees and they just look the other way. Anytime i see a cosignor auction, i just keep going. EBAY knew exactly what they were doing blocking bidder id's.

+1

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I completely understand the point you are making about the drawbacks of buying from consignors on eBay. The flipside, though, is that there are so many sketchy eBay sellers looking to rip buyers off through reprints, bait and switch, not shipping items, etc. that it has allowed the major consignors on eBay to flourish because people feel more comfotable buying from them.

I am not dismissing the problem of shilling with the consignor auctions, but there is just so much fraud or attempted fraud on eBay that people like PWCC and Probstein attract a sizable following for their auctions. At least when you buy from people like PWCC or Probstein, you know you are going to get what you paid for and what was advertised.

Exactly. There are many periods where I'll find myself only bidding with PWCC and Rick and maybe a few other sellers of quality cards. Does this make me a shill? Of course not. I just like to buy stuff I know is legit and will definitely arrive. If I have to trample on some owner's shill bid with a snipe to get what I want, so be it. As long as a friend or fake account can lob in a shill bid, there will always be shilling. If one doesn't want to bid on a given auction, one doesn't have to. Personally I find it very easy to ask myself what my max is and snipe accordingly, then just let the chips fall.