paying for USPS fault

[zljones]

This has not happened to me yet as a seller, so I am simply asking because I have always wondered what others think about what a policy should be if a seller ships out an item with a tracking number, and scans are shown as moving through sort facilities then the item suddenly falls off the face of the Earth and is never delivered. Let's also say that the seller used the exact correct postage amount, packaged it right, and shipped to the correct address that was provided and did absolutely nothing wrong. Also I am not including situations where there was never a scan to any delivery facilities, in that case a refund I think should be issued, so let's leave that issue out.
Do you think the seller should be responsible to refund the money in this situation, even though it is clearly the post office's fault? Does the seller have a moral obligation to issue a refund even though they are not at fault? Poll attached

[CardTarget]

Of course. Until the goods are delivered to the buyer it is the seller's responsibility to fight with USPS (after giving a refund).

[brookdodger55]

One Word: Insurance

[usernamealreadytaken]

Depends. Did this happen to me as a seller or as a buyer?

[36GoudeyMan]

... this weekend because Paypal/USPS gave me a tracking number that wasn't correct or link-able, and the USPS picked up (and lost) the package.. 9 years of perfect feedback, gone in an instant....

[Leon]

Here is my take on it. IF the buyer and seller didn't talk about insurance at all then it is on the seller to get the package to the buyer, period. Just as it is on the Buyer to get the money to the seller. It doesn't matter if it's WWIII, the seller has the obligation to get the buyer his card. Now, if the buyer was offered insurance and turned it down then that is another story. I voted no on the refund but am not sure I didn't get it twisted around? So, I actually do think the seller should give a refund if the buyer never got the goods, regardless of who's fault it is, UNLESS the buyer turned down insurance. If nothing was said, each party should be obligated to the other party for their part of the deal.

[smtjoy]

Its the sellers problem, the buyer purchased a card that did not arrive. Seller could have purchased insurance if they wanted to cover any possible shipping issue. Mail does get lost and will sometime show up down the road, its happened to me twice, I once had cards show up that I purchased 8 months prior that were lost, I have sold and refunded only to be contacted by the buyer 5 months later that they showed up and they sent them back to me. I think the USPS does a good job as these are the only 2 times I have had this happen to me from over 2000 transactions.

To me I see it as the risk you take as a seller and its your choice if you want to buy insurance to cover that risk or not.

[Bicem]

maybe they should share the cost of the loss and split it since neither was truly at fault?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bicem

maybe they should share the cost of the loss and split it since neither was truly at fault?

So if I send you a $5000 card and it gets lost you will eat $2500? Sweet.....

(though I am sure you and I would just meet at Starbucks or you could swing by the house, most folks aren't in close enough range for that though)

[greenmonster66]

This just happened to me last week. USPS emailed me saying item was delivered and got DC#. I then received few emails from buyer saying he never received item and was pissed at me. He later filed an EBay case against me and he even took one step further by leaving me negative feedback. First off, I do not think it is right for a buyer to leave seller negative feedback while an open case is pending. I fully explained my self to buyer and even went ahead to make a personal phone call to him. Bottom line I did my part as a seller and don't feel I am responsible any more.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Leon

So if I send you a $5000 card and it gets lost you will eat $2500? Sweet.....

(though I am sure you and I would just meet at Starbucks or you could swing by the house, most folks aren't in close enough range for that though)

maybe, IF I never asked for insurance.

[brob28]

I said, yes with a big assumption that the seller did not offer insurance. If seller offers insurance and buyer refuses, I say no. The key to me is that the item is tracked within the USPS system and then falls off.

[Piratedogcardshows]

Tough question and while I feel the Seller in a situation such as this has done everything right it is still there responsibility to get the card to the buyer in the end.Hopefully no one would send a card over say 250 without insurance.I would feel pretty silly to lose money over the few dollars it takes to insurance an item.

[howard38]

,

[olrac44]

It happened to me earlier in the year. In April, I met up with a large PSA dealer at a show, he was busy and trying catch a flight home. He gave me a bunch of cards and said to mail him back whatever I didn't want to buy.

I sent the cards registered mail, which allegedly, a USPS employee is supposed to sign for the package from the origin to the final destination so it shows a chain of custody. Well, 4 days go by and the tracking information says it's still at the post office that I dropped it off!!! I go there and they can't find it. The dealer calls me looking for the cards.

The package arrives that day but the USPS failed to perform a chain of custody for the cards.

Way to go USPS!!

[honus94566]

Don't ship expensive cards USPS, period. Send them with FedEx or UPS, insured, delivery signature required. Then nobody has any worries, and the shipper gets a full value refund in the highly unlikely event the card is lost.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by howard38

But the seller also turned down insurance when he was at the post office mailing the package so why put it just on the buyer? Ultimately it is the seller's responsibility to get the card to the customer and therefore his responsibility to insure the package. If insurance is too much of a financial burden he can include it in his original shipping charge.

We are in agreement. That is why I said I think I voted backwards. It is the sellers responsibility, without any other agreement, to get the card to the buyer.. Again, that is what I said.

[rainier2004]

The seller has the responsibility to get the package to to the buyer. According to ebay in response to this question:

"Sellers aren't permitted to charge buyers a separate fee for insurance, either optional or required. In other words, buyer should see no separate line item for insurance fees within an item description or checkout. If a seller has chosen to purchase insurance to protect themselves, they can recover the cost of insurance within the handling fee or item price. Accordingly, sellers are permitted to state within their listings that the handling fees include insurance, or that shipping costs include insurance. However, there can be no indication of a separate insurance fee or an option to purchase insurance at checkout. By removing optional or required shipping insurance, we are adjusting tohelp meet buyer expectations for ecommerce and aligning with industry standard practices. In most circumstances, buyers do not expect to pay for the cost of shipping insurance. This change also reflects the industry - and eBay - standard practices that sellers are responsible for their items until they are safely in their customers' hands. I would suggest for you to request a cancellation of the transaction if you and the seller not agreeing the terms and condition rather than to continue with it. Thank you for being a valuable member of the eBay community. Have a wonderful time shopping and selling on eBay! Sincerely, Alice M. O. eBay Customer Support"

I offer insurance to net54 members, and feel if they turn it down the responsibility is now on them. Morally, you should do your best to communicate to the buyer the plan of safe arrival and live up to it. I have received cards from net54 members that I paid $1k and $650 for that were not insured. I wonder what those 2 members would have done if I had never got my cards? I guess I need to post my name on this one-
Steve Suckow

[sb1]

Originally Posted by honus94566

Don't ship expensive cards USPS, period. Send them with FedEx or UPS, insured, delivery signature required. Then nobody has any worries, and the shipper gets a full value refund in the highly unlikely event the card is lost.

I believe if you tell UPS or FedEx that your paper collectible got lost in their service they will deny any claims, unless you had private insurance. I have had Fedex refuse to even ship a box once they learned it contained baseball cards, they term them as paper collectibles(even though they were slabbed) and treat them as perishable items and will not cover them.,

I have only had one or two incidents of loss with the USPS in over 30 years and each time was paid promptly and in full for the loss, once with USPS insurance and once with CIA insurance.

Edited to add, that USPS Registered mail is virtually loss free, the above post noted that they did not track the exchange's but in my experience you never see that on the USPS system until the package is delivered, the rest is internal with the USPS. A USPS employee told me that 99.99% of Registered's get delivered, you lose one and you're looking for a new job, also USPS Overnight is extremely reliable has to be signed for, sees very few different hands and is in the system so short and sweet the delivery rate is again nearly 100%, although not everywhere is guaranteed 1 day service. We use USPS for all of our auctions and use a lot of priority large and small boxes and do not charge exceedling high charges, enough to cover the USPS charge and a small amount for our private insurance.

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by CardTarget

Of course. Until the goods are delivered to the buyer it is the seller's responsibility to fight with USPS (after giving a refund).

+1. Legally the transaction is not complete until the buyer takes receipt. All that garbage sellers used to toss up in eBay about not being responsible for loss/stolen items, or if insurance not taken wouldn't hold up in any dispute if it ever came to that.

[packs]

Can UPS really ask you to identify what was in an insured package when you file a claim? It seems like if they sell you the insurance they are accepting coverage for any damage to that package, regardless of whats inside.

[Buythatcard]

As a seller, this has happened to me several times where the package just disappeared off the face of the earth.
That is why I insure most cards that I ship. I don't ask the buyer whether they want insurance or not, I just insure it to protect myself.
After settling with a buyer, I always ask them to notify me in the event that the package arrives after they collect the insurance claim. As of today, I have never heard from a buyer stating that.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by packs

Can UPS really ask you to identify what was in an insured package when you file a claim? It seems like if they sell you the insurance they are accepting coverage for any damage to that package, regardless of whats inside.

There are a laundry list of exclusions and you are expected to know them prior to shipping. I have often had UPS, Fed Ex and the USPS ask me what it was I was shipping/insuring. IF it is on the no no list, most clerks will deny the package.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

Can UPS really ask you to identify what was in an insured package when you file a claim?

Absolutely and they will also ask for proof of value, like a print out of the E-bay auction page or an invoice, etc.

Been through this many times at my job.

[Texxxx]

I would NEVER ask a customer of mine to ever pay for something he did not get. It is my responsibility to get him what he paid for. If I feel insurance is justified then I get it and figure the amount in the price. Insurance is for the seller not the buyer. If you don't work that way then customers will start avoiding you as a supplier. JMO

[rp12367]

I just had a problem today. Won a card off e-bay, seller shipped, gave tracking number. USPS said card was out for delivery on Saturday 9/1. Card never was delivered, status was still out for delivery until yesterday, last night status said, rerouted for international delivery, whatever that means, also showed 9/1 as date even thought it was 9/3. Then all of a sudden today USPS said card delivered 9/1 and international thing is just gone. Today 9/4 no card, talked to mail lady this afternoon (who is a temp for past 3 days, regular mailman on vacation) says she hasn't seen it and maybe it will turn up. Im going to post office tomorrow to talk to them, but I'm sure I will get a run around. As far as e-bay and seller are concerned it shows I got it so I guess I'm outta luck. Hopefully if it got delivered to wrong address the people are honest and put back in mailstream. I wouldn't expect seller to make good on it, it was post office screw up, and even if it was insured USPS says it got to me.

[packs]

USPS being able to ask for proof of value AFTER they sold you insurance and lost your package seems strange to me. If they sell you insurance to me that infers that they are agreeing to protect whatever is in that package for that amount, since they are free to consider not insuring the package prior to sale.

Alternatively, what if you insured an item for less than it was worth? Will USPS pony up more money in that situation? Doubt it. Seems unethical to me all around.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by usernamealreadytaken

Depends. Did this happen to me as a seller or as a buyer?

+1

[jcmtiger]

I require insurance on items over $50.00, otherwise I am responsible as a seller.

Joe

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by honus94566

Don't ship expensive cards USPS, period. Send them with FedEx or UPS, insured, delivery signature required. Then nobody has any worries, and the shipper gets a full value refund in the highly unlikely event the card is lost.

FedEx will deny refunds for collectibles. USPS doesn't really ask questions when a file is claimed, other then an invoice for the item in the package showing the amount of the transaction. They don't really care what it is.

[Batter67up]

If you pay through Paypal, they require the seller to have signature confirmation not just delivery confirmation. If a dispute is opened by the purchaser, the seller must provide a signature confirmation or they will be required to refund the buyer the purchase price.

[BlueDevil89]

For any purchases of $40 or more from my website, I automatically include insurance. I've included the cost of shipping, insurance, and Delivery Confirmation into the prices shown on my website. It may make the prices on my website appear slightly higher than those of competitors who do not include such fees (or simply break those out separately), but it keeps the transactions safe and simple. On my HOW TO ORDER page I note that buyers may purchase insurance for the price of $2 for orders under $40. This way, if ever a dispute arises, it should involve a relatively small dollar amount. Closest to an incident I ever had involved a $9 card. I asked the buyer to bare with me as I worked with the USPS to resolve the matter, and informed him during the very first communication on the subject that he would be refunded his money if the card did not arrive. Two weeks later the USPS found the package and made the delivery.

I voted YES, the seller should issue a refund if the card does not arrive. Ultimately, I feel the Seller has the obligation to make delivery. I view insurance as protection for the seller, not the buyer.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by sb1

I believe if you tell UPS or FedEx that your paper collectible got lost in their service they will deny any claims, unless you had private insurance. I have had Fedex refuse to even ship a box once they learned it contained baseball cards, they term them as paper collectibles(even though they were slabbed) and treat them as perishable items and will not cover them.,

I have only had one or two incidents of loss with the USPS in over 30 years and each time was paid promptly and in full for the loss, once with USPS insurance and once with CIA insurance.

Edited to add, that USPS Registered mail is virtually loss free, the above post noted that they did not track the exchange's but in my experience you never see that on the USPS system until the package is delivered, the rest is internal with the USPS. A USPS employee told me that 99.99% of Registered's get delivered, you lose one and you're looking for a new job, also USPS Overnight is extremely reliable has to be signed for, sees very few different hands and is in the system so short and sweet the delivery rate is again nearly 100%, although not everywhere is guaranteed 1 day service. We use USPS for all of our auctions and use a lot of priority large and small boxes and do not charge exceedling high charges, enough to cover the USPS charge and a small amount for our private insurance.

Interesting. Beckett uses Fedex.

I bought a card in the past that was scanned as delivered to my house approx four hours prior to the approx time the mail carrier enters my neighborhood (routinely). A few weeks after not receiving the card, I emailed the seller, and he said tracking showed it delivered a week or so prior. He started a thread here asking if he should refund my money, to which I replied. As it turned out, an entire crate of local packages were scanned as delivered residentially when they were in fact at the post office.

Waste Management rode by while I commented here, spilling garbage out while the driver was reclined in the seat. An elderly female followed in an effort to prevent more littering. I likened USPS to Waste Management in their lack of dilligence at the time. And when I arrive home to find the green dumpsters littering the street, I'm reminded of that E90-1.

[steve B]

When I was selling a fair ammount of stuff on Ebay I usually paid for the insurance on anything expensive or fragile. The $5 cards I didn't bother figuring if it went missing I'd just take the hit and refund.

I have had UPS refuse packages even without insurance. One was a barn find computer that was collectible, they insisted on it being shiped in the original styrofoam. Even after I explained that the original packaging was likely tossed over 20 years ago and wouldn't be of much use anyway and that the computer was obviously good only for parts- It had hay sticking out of the empty drive bay. Nope, wouldn't take it at all. They also refused the half a victrola because it was an antique and didn't come with an appraisal.
Thanks UPS for making me carry 120Lbs of stuff into the shipping center then rejecting it with unannounced policies.

The post office accepted both, and charged less.

I haven't had to deal with UPS or Fedex on lost/damaged packages except for while I was shipping stuff for work through a commercial account. But I have helped a friend with a damage claim through USPS, and the process went smoothly. He had to show the packing and the damaged item - An Edison cylinder player- To someone at a main post office, as well as an estimate for the repair from an expert or two. There was only one local repairer, so being a fixit guy I wrote one out for him. I just matched the experts quote. His price was very reasonable, and I doubt I could have done as well for as little. USPS paid in a few weeks, pretty much as they said to expect.

Steve B

[glynparson]

I would assume they have outside insurance that allows for fed ex. I know many do.

[buymycards]

Yes I would refund the money for the item. Here is my take on it from a Postal employees perspective and I deal with this all day long. I know that not all post offices run like this, but this is the way it happens at my po.

1. We pay very close attention to our scans. When they come in on the truck we scan each package as "Arrived at Unit". We expect the carriers to scan every parcel as "attempted", delivered", etc. Each carrier has a scanner with it's own unique serial number. Each day I compare the number of scans that are made by the carriers to number of parcels that arrived at our office. If I see a parcel that wasn't scanned correctly I talk to the carrier about the missed scan and they need to have a good reason. "I forgot" isn't a good reason. 99.1 % of our parcels are scanned and delivered on the day that we receive them. Once in a while a new carrier will scan a parcel as delivered, but deliver it to the wrong house. Once in a while the barcode will be smudged and we won't be able to scan it. Once in a while the parcel will have an incorrect address and a new carrier will deliver it as it is addressed instead of getting it to the correct address. I tell our carriers that 99.1% is pretty good, unless you are part of the 0.9% whose packaged didn't get handled correctly.

2. When I receive a call about a missing package or if someone calls and says their package is showing as delivered but they didn't receive it, I start out by talking to the carrier. Does the carrier remember delivering this package? Where did you put it? Was it too large to fit in the mailbox and you put it somewhere else? Has the customer moved and the carrier delivered it to the old address? Was the package addressed correctly? Then I talk to the customer: Did you look on the porch? Were your kids home? Who brought the mail in from the mailbox? You would be surprised how many times the kids brought in the mail and put the package somewhere and the parents weren't aware of it. Or the package may be on the porch. Or the people recently moved and didn't file a change of address card and the package was mailed to their old address. 9 times out of 10 the problem is with the customer and about 1 time out of 10 the carrier is at fault. Last Xmas we stopped package delivery at one of the trailer parks because someone was stealing USPS and UPS packages as soon as they were delivered. There are also many eBay scammers who make a living by saying they didn't receive their packages.

3. Most of the people who work for the Post Office are good, hard working people who are trying their best to do a good job. Sometimes they make mistakes but we try to find ways to limit the mistakes. Once in a while we run across a clerk or a carrier who just doesn't care, and then we have problems.

So anyway, yes, I would refund the money. Thanks for letting me ramble.

Rick

[Clutch-Hitter]

Rick, great work.

I should have concluded my response by saying that our post office has been top notch in their scanning since that incident involving my twenty-something dollar card nearly two years ago (around Christmas).

But more about that day for FYI only: Our mail carrier confirmed she could not have delivered the package to our neighborhood at that time of day and subsequently pointed at a house across the street from mine saying they had a package lost too. Well, unbeknownst to her, that was my in-law's house, and during a subsequent conversation with them, they did not have a package that had been lost. I spoke to several people at the P.O., including the very helpful post master. The seller did not refund my money and the card never arrived. The seller, who said he mailed the E90-1 in an 8 x 10 envelope, ceased posting when I became active in his thread. Someone, can't remember who, said he could have mailed a flyer or something and had it scanned. It was a good deal on a PSA 2 E90 at the time, so who knows.

And as for Waste Management, they've gotten better too, even got out of the truck on one occasion, possibly two. Several years ago I ran after one of their trucks with a large box, requesting him to stop so I could throw it in the truck. He reluctantly stopped, raised up from his reclined position, looked at me and said no, it would clutter up his truck. Your garbage truck, I asked, as I slung the box in the truck.

Sorry, very happy with the service from these two since, but a previous poster's account of his package getting scanned as delivered, after being re-routed or something, revived some memories.

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by 36GoudeyMan

... this weekend because Paypal/USPS gave me a tracking number that wasn't correct or link-able, and the USPS picked up (and lost) the package.. 9 years of perfect feedback, gone in an instant....

You may want to try and get the buyer to revise his feedback, if it means a lot to you. You could offer to send him something to compensate him for his loss of time and show him how he can revise the feedback.

[murcerfan]

"Don't ship expensive cards USPS, period. Send them with FedEx or UPS, insured, delivery signature required. Then nobody has any worries, and the shipper gets a full value refund in the highly unlikely event the card is lost."

that is total crap.

There is no more bombproof way to ship cards than USPS registered and with the compoklicated added insurance...and if you get into 5k plus cards it is also the most cost effective.

Of course the instant gratification factor might not suite you or the speedy-internetty flashy cool as big and exclamationy!!!!!

[Touch'EmAll]

I have lost as both buyer and seller. It is very, very frustrating. As seller, I have learned that ALL items valued less than $100. get delivery confirmation with tracking number. And all items over get full insurance coverage. Don't even bother selling unless you are willing to eat a couple bucks on shipping and send with tracking/insurance.

With near perfect feedback, ebay security will always side with buyer unless tracking/insurance - if proper tracking/ins. then ebay security will side with seller.