Vintage Cards Vs Vintage Patch Cards

[Moonlight Graham]

Hi-me again! I have another question that's been bothering me for quite awhile. Do vintage card collectors collect modern patch cards of vintage players? I notice all the time on ebay shoeless joe jackson bat cards for 100.00 or less and i'm blown away! Do collectors feel that these cards are fake? By that i mean do they feel the piece of bat or uniform is generic and may or may not belong to that player. Do you guys think that baseball card companies really have all these MLB bats and uniforms? Some of these cards are pretty cool i think but i wish the card companies would make these cards look more vintage instead of all these different color foils. What do you guys think? Thanks!

[vintagetoppsguy]

I personally don't like them and think it's a travesty to destroy a piece of baseball history like that.

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I personally don't like them and think it's a travesty to destroy a piece of baseball history like that.

I agree with that. However, i'm also surprised that such history is so cheap these days.

[rdixon1208]

Do the card companies even profess that the patch/bat or whatever actually belonged to the player on the card? I'm thinking they don't.

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

Do the card companies even profess that the patch/bat or whatever actually belonged to the player on the card? I'm thinking they don't.

i think they say something like "personally used in a major league game" and "relics of" (like relics of babe ruth, etc)

[vintagerookies51]

Do they just use pieces of an actual game-used jersey/bat? This might sound like a stupid question, but I would think there would be a lot more game-used full pieces if there weren't all these patches. Is that why there's usually only 1 game used jersey for a player?

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by vintagerookies51

Do they just use pieces of an actual game-used jersey/bat? This might sound like a stupid question, but I would think there would be a lot more game-used full pieces if there weren't all these patches. Is that why there's usually only 1 game used jersey for a player?

yes-they just use tiny pieces and i think maybe they are able to produce 300-500 cards from it.

[Big Ben]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I personally don't like them and think it's a travesty to destroy a piece of baseball history like that.

+1

[doug.goodman]

Disgusting is a word that comes to mind.

Forgetting about the obvious issues of proving that the people who make these pieces of crap used an actual piece of equipment used or worn by the people they claim, I doubt that ANYBODY who is an actual fan / collector would have ANY interest in owning a piece of bat / jersey / helmet / right arm that belonged to _____________ (fill in legendary player name), if the only way to do so was to destroy the bat / jersey / helmet / right arm. Seeing it in a museum, or knowing that it is owned by somebody who loves it is plenty for me.

Doug

[thenextlevel]

Yes, I collect both vintage cards and vintage patch cards of most of the bigger name players. I actually have no problem with it, as long as they are not cutting up one of a kind items.

[fkw]

to be blunt I think of it all as modern gimmick garbage..

even if that sliver of wood or piece of cloth is from the Era, its not in its original form and has been altered significantly that you would never know what it was unless they told you.

The gimmick card it is attached to is "brand new" as well

the only one I can see maybe being somewhat OK, its the cut autograph cards, but then again they cut it from its original form and lost much of the story behind the autograph ie someones autograph book or maybe a letter...

a cut autograph is the lowest form of all autographs, yet this crowd that collects these pay far more for them because of the hype surrounding the pseudo-rarity... intentially "Limited Edition" (ie 1/1) is not rare, in the same case as something that has survived use and abuse over 50++ years and became rarer naturally over time or by natural limited supply.

those things are not even comparable IMO....

[novakjr]

Don't like the patch/swatch cards one bit...Well, at least for vintage. These are/were pieces of history. With modern players, I don't mind them as much, those jerseys or whatever are a dime a dozen. Hell, the players are probably given more jerseys to wear, just to account for these cards..

[ScottFandango]

i guess im in the minority but holding the ABSOLUTE MEMORABILIA Babe Ruth Card in your hand and feeling the wool with your fingers is magical....it evokes a timeless feeling, a feeling of nostalgia, and a feeling of GREATNESS...no joke...

much better for 500 people to enjoy this than 1 person who owned the jersey....

its not like the jersey is burnt away and destroyed, if anything the card preserves and displays the piece of jersey very nicely...

[steve B]

They can probably get 3000+ pieces of wood out of a bat, maybe more depending on how they do it.

I really dislike the cutting up of old stuff. I'd ratehr have a longer shot at a redemption card for the entire item.

If it's from a current player or one who was playing within the last few years I think it's silly but ok. The curent guys can just use a bat for one at bat, or a jersey for one inning and turn it over to the company. And I'm sure the big names of the last 5 years or so probably "used" several of each.

Some items are less clear. My Fenway seat was removed by one of the construction guys in the early 70's. The cutting to remove it from the row wasn't at all neat so I have an end seat with 3 slats sticking out 8-12 inches on the left. Sometimes I'm tempted to trim it a bit......Last year would have been the time, assuming I could have found a buyer at Topps.

Steve B

Steve B

[Moonlight Graham]

I think the one big thing that bothers me is if it is a card with a real piece of babe ruth's game used jersey why are the prices so cheap now? i know there are some sellers on ebay asking astronomical amounts for some but for the most part they're pretty cheap. i just wish i knew how real these pieces are and how game used they are.

[bbcard1]

I have a confession to make...I do collect some shiny stuff. My collection is mostly serial numbered cards, first or last cards, like number 001/100 or 250/250. I got a nice George Sisler bat card numbered 25/25 for about $12 the other day... how do you pass on that?

[tbob]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I personally don't like them and think it's a travesty to destroy a piece of baseball history like that.

+2

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by Moonlight Graham

I think the one big thing that bothers me is if it is a card with a real piece of babe ruth's game used jersey why are the prices so cheap now? i know there are some sellers on ebay asking astronomical amounts for some but for the most part they're pretty cheap. i just wish i knew how real these pieces are and how game used they are.

cheap?

the ruth big Absolute memorabilia jersey swatch card goes for over $1000
the smaller swatches go for over $300...

even his bats chip cards (much more common) go for over $150....

some of these modern Ruth Jersey cards go for more than Ruth Baseball cards!

[yanksfan09]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I personally don't like them and think it's a travesty to destroy a piece of baseball history like that.

+3

Also, they're cheap because I think most vintage collectors feel this same way. Plus, the supply gets so watered down from them making 500+ ? cards or more from a single jersey or bat....Then to top it off, they encase these pieces with a glossy, shiny, foily modern frame, that's just ugly...

I have no issue with the modern player cuts, because the supplies aren't limited at all, the market is flooded with extra bats and jerseys to account for these cards. Just leave the vintage player stuff alone!

That being said, feel free to snatch them up if you feel they are genuine bargains. I feel like sometimes they go for the low prices they do because they make some people want to vomit....

[calvindog]

Gee, maybe they're cheap because they're not real?

[ScottFandango]

is $1000 cheap? im confused

you can get a bunch of ruth cards for less than that....

anyone ever see the Jim Thrope Jersey card? another card that is AWESOME to touch and feel!!!

[yanksfan09]

Yeah I got my Red Goudey #149 graded fair for about that price with nice eye appeal....Would I trade that for a cut up piece of unverified cloth surrounded by a cheesy modern cardboard frame......tempting....

[ScottFandango]

well, the market has set the value on these ruth cards and they have only gone WAY up since they were issued, not to mention you dont see them for sale very often anymore...

so even though most on this board will HATE these cards, the market has provided a significant value to these cards (also meaning that the general buying public believe these to be real)

[calvindog]

25% of the general public also thinks 9/11 was an inside job.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

25% of the general public also thinks 9/11 was an inside job.

The same 25 percent also thinks there is still an ongoing grand jury investigation into shill bidding.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Gee, maybe they're cheap because they're not real?

What, they might not be fake? No way.......You must have missed all of the people having legal issues lately in the sports memorabilia field? I have a laundry basket of rags too......just think, I could be rich, rich, rich (yes, Iggy, that kind of rich....Rich Luckey ........)

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...s-in-evidence/

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...ed-with-fraud/



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[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by calvindog

25% of the general public also thinks 9/11 was an inside job.

i hope this is just a bad /tasteless joke on your part...surely you cant believe that...


and to clarify
I DONT COLLECT PATCH CARDS, i havent bought one in many years, its just i have a few RUTH, Gehrig, Thorpe Jersey cards that i like to break out every now and then...

guess what cards interest my non- collecting friends and family more, YUP the patch cards are way more a hit than some E90-1 SGC slabbed Hofer..

there is just something special when you can touch and feel the 100 year old wool that plastic cant match!!!

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

well, the market has set the value on these ruth cards and they have only gone WAY up since they were issued, not to mention you dont see them for sale very often anymore...

so even though most on this board will HATE these cards, the market has provided a significant value to these cards (also meaning that the general buying public believe these to be real)

actually, i see these cards on ebay and some have huge prices but never sell. and these 1/1 schemes are incredible! just because these modern cards are stamped 1/1 people think it's super rare-just crazy! i think they should have each card with a patch in it psa/dna certified-at least those of the vintage ballplayers-if not psa/dna than mears or some other reputable third party-jmo

[68Hawk]

I like the vintage ones, particularly material from tougher to find HOF players because of their relative scarcity (the majority of whose memorabillia is intact, tightly held privately, and not nearly as unique as is made out). I wouldn't collect a ton of the modern stuff because then they do tend to take on that cheap dime a dozen feel...

I actually think they look pretty good, though much like all cards it comes down to the design and aesthetic abilities of the manufacturer. In the same way I'm a fan of some vintage issues, and others less so.....

I also find myself in the less likely to believe camp of the need for the big card companies to use faked memorabillia, when they can buy the authentic stuff for not so crazy prices at auction, AND not run the risk of being found out with the subsequent death of credibility in an industry that struggles to create much confidence.

Anyways....here's a couple of mine framed up

[Orioles1954]

I can't believe this is even still a topic. HOF GU cards is so 2002.

[Orioles1954]

FWIW, a couple of companies have purchased GU jerseys from our auction for their upcoming products.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

i hope this is just a bad /tasteless joke on your part...surely you cant believe that...

Was what I wrote really that difficult to comprehend?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

i hope this is just a bad /tasteless joke on your part...surely you cant believe that...

He was just pointing out that a certain (large) percentage of the people we see every day when we venture out into the world are complete and total morons.

A point that fits well into this thread, in my opinion.

Doug

[thenextlevel]

Look at what the Donruss paid for the Ruth home jersey. I think in the mid 200s. Now add up the price to buy all of the game used made from that cut up jersey. You'll be paying a lot more than the jersey itself. The Absolutes go between 1-2k a piece. Now add up the buttons, tag, etc. In essence, it made that jersey more valuable, and allows for more people to own a piece of history. I mean it's not like they threw it into a fire.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

He was just pointing out that a certain (large) percentage of the people we see every day when we venture out into the world are complete and total morons.

A point that fits well into this thread, in my opinion.

Doug

Yes, you are the moron who doesn't respect other people's OPINIONS...

[Leon]

This one isn't vintage but is on topic otherwise. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy the whole jersey? That being said I do believe the buyer of this would at least be getting what they think they are buying, so it does have that going for it...plus since it's not vintage maybe less folks would have a problem with cutting the jersey up? I think it's kind of neat but a bit more than I would personally pay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-10-Uppe...-/180774568638




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[ullmandds]

Personally...I'm kind of a purist...I really don't like the modern cards that look like older cards...the Allen and Ginters...the T206ization of modern players, etc...I think it's lame that the card designers have to recycle old designs because they can't dream up exciting designs themselves...but this is present in most aspects of american design these days.

I like the fantasy creations of the helmar brewing company much better!!!!

Additionally...the destruction of rare and valuable old artifacts...as microscopic remnant containing chase cards is a good business decision in most cases...but a bad one for the hobby...in my opinion.

[Ease]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I like the fantasy creations of the helmar brewing company much better!!!!

+1

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

Yes, you are the moron who doesn't respect other people's OPINIONS...

Scott -

I in no way am referring to you or anybody else in this thread as a moron, and I completely respect the other opinions being discussed.

In hindsight I probably should have used a different word, but remember this portion of the thread started when reference was made to 25% of the public thinking that the events on 9/11 were some sort of conspiracy. Those people are definitely morons.

Obviously, equating 9/11 and cutting up jerseys is a bit of a stretch to say the least, but there you have it.

Again, I apologize to any on the board who I offended, I think that if anybody takes a look at my posts they will see that I, like most people on the board, are happy to discuss differing opinions on many hobby subjects.

But I still hate the grading companies. Insert smiley face here.

Doug

[68Hawk]

I think quite a bit of the attraction to memorabillia cards is their size, which for many collectors of regular baseball cards is a driver to their own mania.
Not many of us can create Dreier museums to house large scale displays of sporting memorabillia or even devote rooms or basements with a spouses blessing ;-).
In much the same way that many card collectors view their cardboard as 'mini mona lisa's' and artwork to be gazed at and inhaled, memorabillia cards work for alot of collectors who find yet another way to connect to the game and its stars.
When you will never be able to afford the bat, a bat sliver can still feel special and make you feel like your touching history.

In the same way, I have a small hood ornamet collection that displays beautifully without being attached to a radiator or 34' buick - and I feel no distress that it has been disconnected from its original partner vehicle or 'destroyed' through seperation.
Now, if it was a one off ornament connected to a rare example of motoring history I agree there is more beauty and symmetry keeping them connected. But when surviving examples are greater than say 5-10, I don't think you've ruined something that can never be viewed in its original state again.