1907 W600 Cobb

[ls7plus]

The 1907 W600 Ty Cobb, graded PSA VG in the recent Mile High auction, just went for almost $56,000, with buyer's premium. The combined PSA and SGC pop reports total just 3, per Brian. His lot description also contends that as few as 5-6 exist, although other estimates of 10 or more may also be realistic. Since these cards were originally sold individually upon fan request, the great players of the day were more commonly requested than the commons (pun intended). This was the year of Cobb's first batting title, at .350. Given that fact, and the notation on the back of both the 1907 Dietsche Batting and Fielding Position Cobbs that old Tyrus is "recognized all over the country as one of the most sensational players the game has ever had..." etc., what do you dedicated Cobb collectors out there think of Brian's estimates as to how many exist? Wouldn't there have been quite a few requests for Cobb from Sporting Life by the time the card was available? Any opinions as to raw copies still out there?

This Cobb fan thanks you for your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Larry

[jcmtiger]

I can't help, don't know, but there are too many Cobb Collectors out there.

Joe

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

The 1907 W600 Ty Cobb, graded PSA VG in the recent Mile High auction, just went for almost $56,000, with buyer's premium. The combined PSA and SGC pop reports total just 3, per Brian. His lot description also contends that as few as 5-6 exist, although other estimates of 10 or more may also be realistic. Since these cards were originally sold individually upon fan request, the great players of the day were more commonly requested than the commons (pun intended). This was the year of Cobb's first batting title, at .350. Given that fact, and the notation on the back of both the 1907 Dietsche Batting and Fielding Position Cobbs that old Tyrus is "recognized all over the country as one of the most sensational players the game has ever had..." etc., what do you dedicated Cobb collectors out there think of Brian's estimates as to how many exist? Wouldn't there have been quite a few requests for Cobb from Sporting Life by the time the card was available? Any opinions as to raw copies still out there?

This Cobb fan thanks you for your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Larry

Larry, I agree with everything you wrote. I feel the question that's begs to be asked is "how many do you think have survived in the last century?"

[bcbgcbrcb]

Another thing to keep in mind about relative scarcity of the W600's besides common vs. star players is those players that were first issued much later in the series than the earliest from 1902. This makes HOF'ers such as Cobb, E. Collins, Baker, etc. that much rarer than other W600 HOF'ers.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Another thing to keep in mind about relative scarcity of the W600's besides common vs. star players is those players that were first issued much later in the series than the earliest from 1902. This makes HOF'ers such as Cobb, E. Collins, Baker, etc. that much rarer than other W600 HOF'ers.

Phil is absolutely right. Cobb was one of the last HOFers to be offered by the Sporting Life. His card was not offered until October of 1907. The only other HOFers to be offered after that are Collins and Baker. Duffy, who was first offered at about the same time as Cobb is not even known to exist.

I think that the Sporting Life Cabinets were very popular when for the first few years that they were produced (1902-05), but quickly lost popularity as time went on since they basically just reissued the same card every year while adding some new players.

I know of 6 examples of Cobb in the hobby and doubt that more than 10 are known to exist. He is definitely one of the more difficult HOFers to find and his popularity definitley makes is a very desirable card.

FWIW and for the rookie card collectors out there, the HM Taylor, Wolverine and Dietsche postcards of Cobb were issued before his W600 card. Additionally, the 1906 Sporting Life Detroit team postcard was issued before all of them.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin, but Branch Rickey was another HOF'er that was first offered on Sporting Life checklists around 1907 but no known copies are believed to exist.

[ls7plus]

Thanks, Phil and Kevin. The release of Cobb much later in the run was a factor I hadn't considered. My personal feeling is that all of his cards from 1907, regardless of which was issued first during that year, will stand their ground as rookies (I don't believe that multicplicity is in conclict with the notion of a "rookie" card). IMHO, the 1906 team card doesn't qualify any more than does the 1967 Topps Mets team card, which, going by memory, does include Nolan Ryan, although the 1906 Sporting Life postcard will certainly always be a valuable card. But, we've had these discussions before, and probably the real question will be what the market decides the relative values are to be between the W600 and the team card in the future. Certainly either card would be one of the cornerstones of any great collection!

Best wishes to all the dedicated collectors out there (but I doubt that I'm going to find a new hobby),

Larry

PS: Greg, you're certainly right that attrition would have been a factor in the card's ultimate rarity, not just due to time, but the fact of paper drives associated with each World War.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin, but Branch Rickey was another HOF'er that was first offered on Sporting Life checklists around 1907 but no known copies are believed to exist.

Rickey was first issued at the very beginning of 1906. AFAIK, there are no known examples of him.

I also have never seen an example of Baker, though I have been told that it does exist. I believe that I have seen images of all of the other HOFers.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Thanks, Phil and Kevin. The release of Cobb much later in the run was a factor I hadn't considered. My personal feeling is that all of his cards from 1907, regardless of which was issued first during that year, will stand their ground as rookies (I don't believe that multicplicity is in conclict with the notion of a "rookie" card). IMHO, the 1906 team card doesn't qualify any more than does the 1967 Topps Mets team card, which, going by memory, does include Nolan Ryan, although the 1906 Sporting Life postcard will certainly always be a valuable card. But, we've had these discussions before, and probably the real question will be what the market decides the relative values are to be between the W600 and the team card in the future. Certainly either card would be one of the cornerstones of any great collection!

Larry - I totally agree with you about Cobb's different 1907 rookie cards. I am certainly not trying to define what is or is not a rookie card - cabinet card, postcard, team card, etc. I was just trying to give collectors a timeline of when Cobb's different rookie cards were first issued.

I am very fond of the 1906 Sporting Life postcard set of 16 teams and feel that since the players are each represented by a recognizable portrait and are individually identified that it is much more substantial than a 1967 team card, but I certainly understand why others would disagree.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Larry - I totally agree with you about Cobb's different 1907 rookie cards. I am certainly not trying to define what is or is not a rookie card - cabinet card, postcard, team card, etc. I was just trying to give collectors a timeline of when Cobb's different rookie cards were first issued.

I am very fond of the 1906 Sporting Life postcard set of 16 teams and feel that since the players are each represented by a recognizable portrait and are individually identified that it is much more substantial than a 1967 team card, but I certainly understand why others would disagree.

I completely agree with you there, Kevin. It's a lot like coin collcectors preferring the sheer size of double eagles as opposed to more dime-like gold dollars, or why Morgan silver dollars have proven popular. Bigger is better, and the size of the Cobb portrait postcard gives it a totlally different feel than the '67 Topps Mets team picture. It is simply a great card, classified as rookie or not.

May all the collecting winds be at your back, sailing you right to your goals,

Larry

[paul]

Were the players that were offered early on -- like 1902 -- offered for the entire print run? In other words, was Delahanty still available in the 1907-10 time frame?

Paul

[bcbgcbrcb]

Paul:

My guess would be yes although interest in retired players likely would have dwindled within a couple of years.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by paul

Were the players that were offered early on -- like 1902 -- offered for the entire print run? In other words, was Delahanty still available in the 1907-10 time frame?

Paul

The Sporting Life continued to offer players after their playing days until their supply of that player ran out. In the case of Delehanty, the SL offered his card through October of 1903 - three months after his death.

Other players, such as Louis Castro, were offered for years after they played baseball. Castro's last year in the Majors was in 1902, but the SL was still offering his card as late as 1907 - the last year that I have records for. Obviously, he was not a popular choice by the readers of the SL.

When the SL offered their cards, they organized most of the players by their current team. In September of 1903, they began offering "Other Noted Players" which consisted of retired players.

[sb1]

It would be hard to believe that only 6 or perhaps even 10 Cobbs are all that exist. In the last 15 months four different ones have been sold, and I am aware of at least two others. Surely there are more out there than 6-10??

As Kevin and others have alluded to the W600's offered changed on an ongoing basis. Many players were offered for several years, others only a short time. As late as 1913 they were stilling offering left over stock.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by sb1

It would be hard to believe that only 6 or perhaps even 10 Cobbs are all that exist. In the last 15 months four different ones have been sold, and I am aware of at least two others. Surely there are more out there than 6-10??

Scott - you would surely know more than I. I only remember seeing 2 in all of my years of collecting and dealing until the recent 3 "new" examples hit the market - I believe that the other one was previously offered before. I know of another example, so that makes 6. There are probably more than 4 more in private collections that I am not aware of.

[paul]

Kevin, thanks for answering my question. That's very interesting. I always assumed the W600s were "made to order." I guess I was wrong about that since the SL obviously had a stock of retired players lying around. But it sure makes me wonder why a stash of unpurchased Branch Rickeys have never been found. He may have been unpopular, since he wasn't a great player. But SL must have made a few of them for its inventory. Maybe they were all destroyed when the promotion ended.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Any theories on why the Johnny Evers is so hard to find? I believe that he was first issued in 1903 so he would have been one of the longest running players. I have been actively looking for one since 2004 and have never seen for for sale or auction. I believe that a board member has one example and that is the only one that I know of.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Any theories on why the Johnny Evers is so hard to find? I believe that he was first issued in 1903 so he would have been one of the longest running players. I have been actively looking for one since 2004 and have never seen for for sale or auction. I believe that a board member has one example and that is the only one that I know of.

Phil - Yes, Evers was first offered in the middle of 1903. I have no idea why he is so scarce. That being said, there are other HOFers that were offered in the same timeframe that are equally as scarce such as Burkett and Mack. As far as I know, there is no rhyme or reason for their scarcity either. Since they were only issued as premiums, I can only assume that they were not popular with the fans of the dayand not many chose them.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Kevin:

Burkett and Mack are good comparisons, maybe a possibility for those two was that their playing days were either over or winding down by that time and the fans were more interested in the star players of the era. However, that doesn't explain Evers, who was in his prime during those days and played on the best team of the era, the mid 1900's Chicago Cubs. Guess we'll never know.............

[jerrys]

I've seen six in some 25 years or so. Three professionally graded at recent auctions and three others. The others include two in terrible condition and the Copeland in near mint condition. It is not surprising that an exceptionally high auction price on a particular rare card will quickly bring out others. But the total of six for these cabinets made 100 years ago is quite low for a super-star player. I've heard speculation that others exist, and it may to be true, but I have never had evidence of any kind.

I've only seen two W600 Evers. One was a miss cut and the other was in the famous Tom Boblitt Collection.

Burkett and Mack – I’ve only seen one of each but no rumors attached to these.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thanks for the insight, Jerry.

Do you recall how bad the miscut Evers was? Just so I know whether it is worth pursuing or not (of course I may never get the opportunity anyway).

[HRBAKER]

Phil I would hold out for the one with Boblitt pedigree for sure.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Jeff:

Do you know where it currently resides and how likely it is to come up for sale/auction anytime soon?

[sb1]

Evers won't be available anytime soon, and No I don't own it, but I know where it is.

I have seen a Mack and have seen more then one Burkett, I do have one of him.

[paul]

Scott, anytime you get tired of that Burkett, please let me know.

Paul

[autograf]

Wow......the Boblitt pedigree....funny HR.....I'm not sure I want to go to dinner with you now at the Louisville Slugger auction......

Tried to get a Cobb but in the years I was accumulating W600s no Cobbs were offered. After I sold the lot in 2002, they started appearing.

I think Evers went to the place where scarce vintage cards go to never be seen again....or auctioned again, that is....

[Johnny Ballgame]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Other players, such as Louis Castro, were offered for years after they played baseball. Castro's last year in the Majors was in 1902, but the SL was still offering his card as late as 1907 - the last year that I have records for. Obviously, he was not a popular choice by the readers of the SL.

When the SL offered their cards, they organized most of the players by their current team. In September of 1903, they began offering "Other Noted Players" which consisted of retired players.

Originally Posted by sb1

As Kevin and others have alluded to the W600's offered changed on an ongoing basis. Many players were offered for several years, others only a short time. As late as 1913 they were stilling offering left over stock.

Here's a scan of the cabinet ad in the April 27th, 1912 issue of Sporting Life. I've tried to clean it up a bit for detail.

At that point, the players were listed in alphabetical order, en masse. Castro was still available, a full decade after his only year in the majors.

Wish I could go back and tell my great-great-grandpa to spend $2 on some premiums and take good care of them.

[paul]

Cobb, Evers, and Mack all were still available which makes their scarcity even more puzzling. Burkett was not available. Interestingly, George Van Haltren was available even though he hadn't played in about a decade. I hope my Van Haltren was actually made during his career.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by paul

Cobb, Evers, and Mack all were still available which makes their scarcity even more puzzling. Burkett was not available. Interestingly, George Van Haltren was available even though he hadn't played in about a decade. I hope my Van Haltren was actually made during his career.

Paul - what mount does your Van Haltren have? That will give you the approximate production date. FWIW, I do not ever remember seeing a Van Haltren with a type 4 back, which means that the latest that they were printed up is early 1904. My guess is that they printed up a quantity of one player at a time and continued to give them out until the were out. For example, in the case of Castro, I believe that all of his known cards come with a type 1 mount, which means that it was produced in 1902. I would guess that someone requested a Castro in 1902, the Sporting Life printed up a certain quantity of him which lasted them for the next 10+ years.

[paul]

Sorry for the low quality scan, but here is my Van Haltren. The caption says that he is a member of the New York team "of 1902".

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by paul

Sorry for the low quality scan, but here is my Van Haltren. The caption says that he is a member of the New York team "of 1902".

That is a Type 1 mount - it was made in 1902. Great card.

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by autograf

I think Evers went to the place where scarce vintage cards go to never be seen again....or auctioned again, that is....

Where?

[autograf]

Board member lurker......incredible collection.....