peck & snyder help please

[Delray Vintage]

I see the Goodwin auction has a peck and snyder CDV labeled by SGC, but the back of the card has no reference to peck and snyder. REA has a cdv which is not sold as peck and snyder but SGC has it as a CDV 1869. Can someone tell me if all Peck and Snyder CDV cards omit a peck and snyder reference on the back? If it was a trade card used to push the sporting goods store, why no reference to it? Seems odd.

[GaryPassamonte]

Very few of the Red Stocking CdVs have a Peck and Snyder reference on the reverse. While it is possible CdVs without a Peck and Snyder advertisement on the reverse were issued by Peck and Snyder, there is no solid evidence to confirm they were issued by P&S.

[oldjudge]

Gary is exactly right. In fact, I would go so far as to say that they are not Peck & Snyders.

[GaryPassamonte]

Jay,
I think the population data I stated in the prior 1869 Cincinnati CdV thread is skewed. I said there were 22 graded with 17 being trade cards and 5 being CdVs. I believe in the grading world some of the trade cards are CdVs. The figure of 17 includes all P&S cards whether a trade card or a CdV. The 5 CdVs are either blank backed or may have the team line up on the reverse. Although the graded CdVs are still rarer than their trade card counterparts, the difference in population is less than I first stated.

[Delray Vintage]

So the designation as a Peck and Snyder in the goodwin auction is incorrect? It seems then that only the large size would be from Peck and Snyder. The CDV size would be from other stores or just a team photo not advertising anything. Thanks Gary and Old Judge.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Delray Vintage

So the designation as a Peck and Snyder in the goodwin auction is incorrect? It seems then that only the large size would be from Peck and Snyder. The CDV size would be from other stores or just a team photo not advertising anything. Thanks Gary and Old Judge.

No, there are also cdv's known with a Peck and Snyder advertisement on the back. They advertise the the sale of these cdv's in bulk - $.75/12 or $5/100.

I have always found it easiest to differentiate the cards by calling the larger Peck and Snyders "Trade Cards" and the referring to cdv's as just "cdv's."

From talking with several photograph experts, they feel that the cdv's pre-date the larger trade cards. This theory is also backed up with the fact that the cdv has an "Ann St." address for Peck and Snyder while the trade cards have a "Nassau St." address which was their later location.

[Delray Vintage]

Kevin is the Goodwin one a Peck and Snyder or is Sgc label a mistake?

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Delray Vintage

Kevin is the Goodwin one a Peck and Snyder or is Sgc label a mistake?

The one in Goodwin does not have Peck and Snyder advertising. It only has printing on the back that identifies all of the players. I do not know what the "bulk" cdv's that were offered for sale on the back of the Peck and Snyder cdv's look like on the back. They may have just been generic like the one in Goodwin's auction. No way to tell who issued it.

Through the years, out of error, laziness or for simplicty, all 1869 Cincinnati cards have been referred to as "Peck and Snyders' no matter the advertisement on the back, which is where the confusion comes from.

[Delray Vintage]

What is really confusing is that REA has a CDV without a P&S designation on the SGC graded card while SGC called the Goodwin one P&S.

[barrysloate]

I used to think the P & S trade cards predated the CdV's, but I agree with Kevin and now feel the CdV's are the true rookie cards. Of course, since several different establishments issued them it's pretty difficult to determine which one was the very first.

[GaryPassamonte]

I believe SGC may have given the Goodwin as well as the current Heritage Red's CdVs the P&S designation based on the print type and format. The Heritage example has a Chadwick advertisement instead of a P&S ad on the reverse, but the format is almost identical to the known P&S CdVs. The American News on 117, 119, and 123 Nassau St was the agent. It appears The American News was the printer and distributor of the P&S CdVs as well as others with a silmilar print style on the reverse. The Cincinnati team was very famous in America in 1869. The American News cashed in on this popularity.

[Delray Vintage]

Thanks Gary it sounds like a plausible reason for SGC label as P&S. I see the Heritage one has an address unlike Goodwin so typeface would be only way to attribute it to P&S. I only see one clear P&S reverse on a CDV sold by Mile High in 2010.