T-206 Honus Wagner

[e107collector]

I figured I would try to get other board members thoughts on this subject.

Lets suppose that Honus never had his card pulled from production, and that the population of the card was similar to the other HOF's in the set. What do you suppose the value be? Similar to a Ty Cobb T206?

If this was the case, what then would be the "Holy Grail" of baseball card collecting? The Baltimore News Babe Ruth would be my guess.

Any thoughts?

Tony

[Matt]

Originally Posted by e107collector

I figured I would try to get other board members thoughts on this subject.

Lets suppose that Honus never had his card pulled from production, and that the population of the card was similar to the other HOF's in the set. What do you suppose the value be? Similar to a Ty Cobb T206?

If this was the case, what then would be the "Holy Grail" of baseball card collecting? The Baltimore News Babe Ruth would be my guess.

Any thoughts?

Tony

Tony - interesting question. IMO the BN Ruth wouldn't make it as it wasn't well known enough and it's from an obscure issue. Perhaps the T206 Plank would take over the T206 Wagner's spot. IMO the M101-5 Ruth would have a better shot then the BN Ruth.

[vintagecpa]

If the T206 Wagner card wasn't so famous, then all of the Wagner cards would trade at lower levels. He trades at a premium because whenever one of his cards sell, it hits the media. Many people pay a premium simply to own one. I would speculate that his value would be less than the Cobb, and somewhere around the next lower tier of Hof'ers.

The 1914 Ruth is a tough one to beat. Perhaps the 1933 Goudey Nap would gain ground.

I would say the Plank. Since there is less than the Wagner anyways I think the Wagner is over rated.

Do we know the real reason, not theory, behind the Wagner and Plank being so short printed???

[vintagecpa]

Now that I think about it, I just don't see Plank or Lajoie having the name recognition to become the hobbies holy Grail card. Perhaps the 1914 or 1916 Ruth would simply become that card. I believe the T206 Wagner plays a large part in driving up the price of the T206 Plank.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

The 1914 Ruth is a tough one to beat. Perhaps the 1933 Goudey Nap would gain ground.

This is probably sacrilegious of me to say, but I think the rarity of the Goudey Lajoie is a tad overblown. Compared with other cards from the set, obviously there are less Lajoies. But when talking about the hobby's great rarities, I don't think the Lajoie holds up. The opportunity to buy one presents itself on a fairly regular basis; it's often just a matter of having the money. And in my opinion one of the factors that drives the price is the fact that, because the cards were distributed by mail instead of in packs, there are so many more of them in high grade than what would otherwise be typical.

[x2drich2000]

I would probably put the Wagner at a similar price as Cobb. However, I think that would also depend if any other Wagner poses would have been made available. If it stayed a 150 only subject, I could see the Wagner's being more than Cobb. As for the "holy grail" of cards, I would guess based on popularity a high grade 52 Mantle would be near the top, but lacks the rarity.

dj

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I would say the Plank. Since there is less than the Wagner anyways I think the Wagner is over rated.

the wagner sells for more each time it goes up for sale, that's like the opposite of "overrated". if anything it's underrated at this point as collectors whine and complain about its value in relation to its scarcity.

[DixieBaseball]

I always cringe when I see the media or anyone describe the T206 Wagner as rare. (I know this board has debated the term "rare" and there is a wide variance of opinion) With around 70 or so Wagners, I can only see this card as some what scarce. The Wagner is probably the most over hyped card in the history of collecting and in my humble opinion is grossly overvalued. There are a few Wag's I would much rather own than the T206. I am not a hater of this card, but just have never understood the fascination and would much rather take a quarter million+ and buy some trully rare pre-war stuff! The card sort of took on a life of its own decades ago and has been climbing the staircase ever sense. Do I like this card ? Sure. Does it excite me ? Absolutely not. (To each his own...)

[Fred]

I'm just going to toss it out there... the holy grail could have come from the 19th century.

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by NashvilleBaseball

I always cringe when I see the media or anyone describe the T206 Wagner as rare. (I know this board has debated the term "rare" and there is a wide variance of opinion) With around 70 or so Wagners, I can only see this card as some what scarce. The Wagner is probably the most over hyped card in the history of collecting and in my humble opinion is grossly overvalued. There are a few Wag's I would much rather own than the T206. I am not a hater of this card, but just have never understood the fascination and would much rather take a quarter million+ and buy some truly rare pre-war stuff! The card sort of took on a life of its own decades ago and has been climbing the staircase ever sense. Do I like this card ? Sure. Does it excite me ? Absolutely not. (To each his own...)

The T206 Wag is so popular and expensive simply because the T206 set is so tremendously popular. You can't forget about demand and just think about supply, its half the equation. And the T206 set is popular in part because its cards are widely available.

And in my opinion it is very correct for the media to say the card is rare. They are writing to communicate with non-collectors, and the word rare absolutely conveys the proper meaning to 99.99999999999% of the public, which would, for example, classify any card with under a thousand copies as "rare."

[E93]

So the T206 Wagner is not the rarest card in the hobby. So what? I don't collect stamps or coins, but I would guess the holy grails of those hobbies are not the rarest coins or stamps either.

The reasons the Wagner is, and always has been the holy grail of the hobby are many (most popular pre-war set, arguably the best player ever, great story explaining its rarity, by now it is a part of American mythology/history - many Americans know of it, etc.)and scarcity is only one of those factors. Does it have any competition for its position as the holy grail of the hobby? No. Will it in the foreseeable future, if ever? No.

The question is an interesting one, but the lack of a clear runner up only underscores the status of the Wagner.

There are a number of cards that would vie for the position if the T206 Wagner did not exist. To me, some of the possibilities are: N172 Anson in uniform, Just So Kelly, Just So Cy Young, T206 Plank, T210 Joe Jackson, Baltimore News Ruth, 1933 Goudey Lajoie, and '52 Topps Mantle come to mind immediately. The first three are probably too rare to ever achieve holy grail status. I think a card needs to have enough examples out there to at least be a possibility - to be somewhat attainable. Cards with only one, two or four known examples, all tucked away in old collections don't circulate enough to be on most collector's radars. The holy grail must be widely known. It must be rare, but not too rare.

JimB

[CW]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Lets suppose that Honus never had his card pulled from production, and that the population of the card was similar to the other HOF's in the set. What do you suppose the value be? Similar to a Ty Cobb T206?

I'd guess he's sell for a little less than Cobb's cards, but a little
more than Johnson/Speaker/Mathewson's.

While I agree with vintagecpa about Wagner's other cards commanding
a premium due to the hype over his T206, Wagner was on par with Cobb
back in his day both in terms of skill and popularity. While his cards would
trade at lower levels without the support of the famous T206 grail, you would
not see a huge drop-off in price on other Wagner issues

Originally Posted by e107collector

If this was the case, what then would be the "Holy Grail" of baseball card collecting? The Baltimore News Babe Ruth would be my guess.

I'll throw another possibility out there....

T210 Shoeless Joe?

[alanu]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

If the T206 Wagner card wasn't so famous, then all of the Wagner cards would trade at lower levels. He trades at a premium because whenever one of his cards sell, it hits the media. Many people pay a premium simply to own one. I would speculate that his value would be less than the Cobb, and somewhere around the next lower tier of Hof'ers.

The 1914 Ruth is a tough one to beat. Perhaps the 1933 Goudey Nap would gain ground.

I agree that all Wagners issues would trade at lower levels if it wasn't for the T206, part of his fame in the card world is due to the T206.

As for the holy grail, it might be the T210 Jackson (kind of ironic) or the T206 Plank, since it's from the most popular T206 set.

[ethicsprof]

I like Prof. Blumethal's point:
i think a card needs to have enough examples out there at least to be a possibility---to be somewhat attainable.
This explains in part why a card such as wagner with 70 or whatever out there still is the holy grail.
I have a couple of uniques(one of a kind cards) which are worth nothing compared to the wagner's millions in part because of the impossibility of 'the
chase', 'the search' for another.
wagner is the grail for me---because it is attainable---one of you folks on this thread sits at home with one even now methinks!!!!

best,
barry

[Bilko G]

He would way below Cobb in value if he hadn't had the T206. I don't think the Babe BN would be "The Baseball card", as its just to rare and obscure. How many non collector know of the Baltimore News? Not many. A Ton of non collectors know about the T206 Wagner, hell it even made its way into pop culture.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

If the T206 Wagner card wasn't so famous, then all of the Wagner cards would trade at lower levels. He trades at a premium because whenever one of his cards sell, it hits the media. Many people pay a premium simply to own one. I would speculate that his value would be less than the Cobb, and somewhere around the next lower tier of Hof'ers.

Wow - I can't believe someone said this and that several other people seem to agree with it.

Does anyone remember the inaugural vote for the Baseball Hall of Fame? Yeah, the one where this Wagner character got the second most votes of any player in the entire history of baseball (and the same number of votes as Babe Ruth, who had recently finished rewriting the baseball record books).

Any suggestion that Wagner was a second-tier Hall of Famer (or for that matter anything but one of the very greatest players of all time) is preposterous to me.

Now, let's leave the baseball world and go to the card-collecting world. Forget about the T-206 Wagner for a second...it is WAY tougher to get a Wagner card than a Cobb card. Wagner appears primarily in candy sets with much lower populations than the tobacco sets where Cobb is a huge presence. My guess (I have never done the math on this, but it would be worth doing) is that the total number of specimens of Wagner cards out there in the world would be about 1/3 or less (probably less) than the number of Cobb cards out there.

I don't think Wagner cards are a bit overpriced. And it has nothing at all to do with T-206. It has everything to do with Wagner being one of the very greatest ballplayers in history, a tough card subject for such a great and beloved player...and a fine human being to boot.

Cheers,
Blair

[3-2-count]

If the T206 Wagner survived this latest economic tumble we've been in, (which it has) it can survive anything and has proved it's a main stay in our hobby. As Jim B stated
it's simply a part of American mythology/history. In regards to what card would have taken it's place if not for it's rarity. I would have to lean towards the T206 Plank.

[e107collector]

Very interesting points so far.

Some have stated that the BN Ruth maybe too rare and unknown to be a Holy Grail. Wouldn't the T210 Jackson fall into the same category? I believe only 10-12 examples exist of each one.

Had Wagner not pulled his card, I would more than likely already have one in my collection. Ahh to dream....

Tony

[T206Collector]

I think you have to seriously consider the impact of Wagner on collecting in general over the past 100 years. So many people got into card collecting because of the value component, which has always been accentuated by the Wagner card and its improbable value going back at least to the 1930s. My guess is we'd have a very very different looking hobby without the history and grandeur behind it...

It's like asking who would have been the best player if Ruth never played. The answer is, maybe we would have stopped watching baseball after 1919 without him.

[vintagecpa]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Wow - I can't believe someone said this and that several other people seem to agree with it.

Does anyone remember the inaugural vote for the Baseball Hall of Fame? Yeah, the one where this Wagner character got the second most votes of any player in the entire history of baseball (and the same number of votes as Babe Ruth, who had recently finished rewriting the baseball record books).

I'm not saying that Wagner cards would all-of-a-sudden be selling for $100. If there were as many Wagner T206's available as Cobb T206's, there is no question Cobb is a bigger name to the general public and would sell at a higher level under the proposed scenario.

Honus Wagner simply wouldn't be a household name if it wasn't for the T206 media coverage. I believe Wagner would fall into this category similar category of a Matthewson or Johnson. My wife has heard of Cobb, but not Matthewson or Johnson. Not a large sample-size, but all I had available. I would speculate that a $1000 Wagner card at today's market would maybe sell for $700 if there were plenty of T206's available. Obviously this would change if his card was short-printed with certain sets.

[dstraate]

Wagner was a heck of a player, so was the Babe. In this case though, the status is derived from it's issue. I feel the T206 Wagner is "the holy grail" specifically because its the most famous card in the most famous set.

It was interesting to hear from guy who surveyed his wife about names she'd heard of (I try that all the time to justify my purchases turns out baseball isn't everybody's national pastime)

You could try to ask the average sports enthusiast (non collectors of course) to name the vintage sets they've heard of. You'd probably hear about T206 and 52 Topps. Perhaps, to a lesser extent Goudey.

Therefore, in absence of Wagner, your grails are Plank, Lajoie, and Mantle. Secondary criteria being a well known HOFer with a back story as to why the card is difficult. Primary criteria being a "Big 3" issue.

[M's_Fan]

There is a poll on the SGC website asking what the hobby's "marquee" card is besides the T206 Wagner. The overwhelming choice was the 1952 Topps Mantle, with 63.8% of the vote. The BN Ruth and the T210 Jackson didn't even come close with 10% of the vote, the M101-5 Ruth got only 6%, and the 34 Lajoie got only 5%.

Like it or not, its pretty clear that the 1952 Topps Mantle is the Vice-President of the baseball card top-dogs.

It definitely doesn't seem that Plank had quite the top tier status as Wagner to generate the same amount of buzz, nor is the dropped printer plate story quite as interesting as the Wagner T206 story. But the Plank definitely would be worth more if the Wagner was common place.

[DixieBaseball]

I concur that the Wagner and then Mantle would be 1st and 2nd in popularity as that is what these cards are... Popular. They are both iconic and mean a lot to the hobby's big picture, but certainly are too overhyped and other quality issues not hyped enough.

[barrysloate]

Because the T206 set has always been popular, the Wagner has had the status it has even as far back as the 1930's and 40's. None of the other cards we consider rarities today- N172 Anson, Four Base Hits Kelly, Baltimore News Ruth, T210 Jackson, etc.- were even on the radar back then.

As a result, many of the buyers of a Wagner in the last twenty years very well may have heard stories about it in their childhood. So it's kind of been one of those cards that has always been out there as a "must have" item.

Again, it's supply AND demand. There may be 70 of them known but there are way more than 70 people who would love to own one. So I find it a little hard to call it overrated. It is what it is.

[steve B]

I think most of us that think of the Wagner as overrated are thinking overrated as a rarity. It's not really rare. Its rarity is constantly overstated, usually it's claimed to be the "rarest card".

It's certainly not overrated as the pop culture icon that represents the entire hobby.

The 52 Mantle is in the same category, being a double print hasn't hurt it at all. As a rarity it doesn't even beat other 52 high numbers, and it's not his rookie card as is often reported. (The whole "rookie card" defenition being weakened by becketts defenition, another whole thread in itself)

But each is a card of a great player from the set of the era. And each is fairly tough and has a great story to make it more popular still. All those sort of things add up to make for an expensive item in any hobby. Upside down airplane stamp, 1913 liberty nickel, you get the idea (The 1913 nickel is a poor example, actually being quite rare, but without the story to make it valid it would be just another backdoored pattern)

Someone else made the point that without the Wagner the entire hobby would be very different. I think that's a very important point, I'm a bit involved with a couple other hobbies that are a bit less mainstream. In one, there's no catalog, no real idea of what's out there, and very little money involved. In another, the hobby was literaly an underground hobby for a long time. Some oldtimers still worry about the FBI busting them. And in that one, a common item may have 75-100 copies available. Yeah, the common stuff is as scarce numerically as the Wagner. And many of those things sell for $50, maybe up to 200. There's some truly rare stuff, one to three copies known, and the biggest price is maybe 15K with most of it under 5000.

Between supply and demand, demand wins big every time.


Steve B

[e107collector]

Does anyone know if Honus Wagner had his own brand name tobacco? I know he endorse Hans Wagner cigars, but I'm not sure about tobacco.

If so, would it had been possible to get a Honus Wagner T-206 with a Wagner tobacco back?

Happy Thanksgiving!

Tony