The Georgia Peach Stumped by the Storyteller

[iggyman]

A bit O/T and probably should go in the memorabilia side, but fantastic article relating to Ty Cobb, Al Stump and Barry Halper. It's a longgggg read, so close the office door and grab a cappuccino. It will be well worth it!

http://haulsofshame.com/Final%20SABR...ished_6744.pdf

And for those that like to know the end of a movie before watching it, here is the conclusion (and I quote....)

"There is no doubt that Al Stump is a proven liar, proven forger, likely thief, and certainly a provocateur who created fabricated and sensationalized stories."

Ouch! Nice words to have on your tombstone.


My thoughts on the article run in a different direction. It appears that Barry Halper knew he had some bogus stuff in his incredible collection, but he did not seem to care .......

Lovely Day...

[Anthony S.]

Very interesting read. Thanks for posting it.

[calvindog]

Iggy, that is an incredible article you linked. Any Cobb fan or anyone interested in reading a carefully researched article dispelling many myths about Cobb should give it a read. Thanks.

[Zach Wheat]

Iggy, thanks for the post. Interesting read....puts Al Stump's greatest work (his book on Cobb) in an entirely different light.

Zach

[rhettyeakley]

Ever since I first read Stumps "book" on Cobb I have had SERIOUS doubts about the validity of nearly everything he wrote,especially when compared to other writings on Cobb. Certainly Cobb was no "peach" but Stump's writings were so far out there that I had largely dismissed his claims as fantasy. Nice to see that this is coming out, a lot of that information was new to me and VERY eye-opening. It makes me want to revisit what is the truth vs. fiction about the man.

Tanks for the link!
-Rhett

[byrone]

From the actual content of legit Cobb written letters, he does not come across anyways near as crazy as his long-standing reputation. And with the decent supply of legit Cobb autographs, he must of been at least somewhat decent to most folks.

[mr2686]

Brian, I agree with your theory 100 percent and actually stated that several months back on another thread, but was pretty much dismissed. I agree that he was probably no peach, but I do think there were two sides to him...one on the field and one off, and most of the people that dealt with him on the field we're pretty much turned off enough to not want to deal with him off the field.

[insidethewrapper]

Thanks for the article link. I printed all 18 pages.

In 1912, the entire Detroit Tiger team would not play and went on strike in support of Cobb ,this was after he was suspended for going into the stands after a heckler. It seems like strong support from teamates. They had to like or respect him to back him to this extent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Superb piece. Stump's story certainly seemed exaggerated without knowing any of this, particularly the wild drives through snowstorms, the casino scenes, etc.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Superb piece. Stump's story certainly seemed exaggerated without knowing any of this, particularly the wild drives through snowstorms, the casino scenes, etc.

Hopefully the ghost of Mickey Cochrane has introduced himself to the ghost of Al Stump. That is, if there was anything left after the ghost of Ty Cobb got through with him.

[Tom Hufford]

This is one of the best researched, and important, articles published in years.

It was written by my friend Ron Cobb (who says he isn't kin to Cobb - now that's being truthful, how many baseball fans named Cobb would not claim kinship!).

This is reprinted from "Baseball in the Peach State", the convention publication of the 2010 SABR convention, held in Atlanta this past weekend. All attendees received a copy in their goody bag, and all SABR members who couldn't attend will be receiving theirs in the mail as soon as the post office finds time to deliver them.

If you missed this SABR convention, you really missed something (but, I might be prejudiced since I was one of the convention organizers). Aside from over 40 terrific research presentations, committee meetings, attending the Braves-Giants game and seeing Tom Glavine's number retired, convention-goers had a chance to meet John Schuerholz, Bobby Cox, Phil Niekro, Mark Lemke, Ron Gant, and Pete Van Wieren, who were on the program (I had the priviledge of introducing all of them), and recent Marlins manager Fredi Gonzalez, who came to hear the presentations on RISP hitting, the effect of pitch counts, etc.

If you're not a SABR member, you need to be - see www.sabr.org

[insidethewrapper]

It appears from the article that John Thorn, a SABR member, didn't want to discuss the pistol/shotgun issue. I thought John was a person who always wanted to set the facts straight and did great research. Why didn't he want to discuss this issue with the museum board members of the Ty Cobb Museum ? It also appears that Mike Gutierrez, according to the article, continued to sell fake Cobb autographs, even when it was known they were fake.

[Tabe]

I recall reading a couple years back about Stump selling or auctioning a pair of *pink* pajamas that he claimed had belonged to Cobb. The authenticity of them was questioned along with a bunch of other items as well. So seeing Stump shredded as he in the SABR article is not a surprise. However, it IS nice to see something so well-researched that finally puts to rest so much of the garbage that Stump spread about Cobb.

Tabe

[Anthony S.]

Should I be concerned about the authenticity of my Ty Cobb signed "Field of Dreams" movie poster?

[iggyman]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

Should I be concerned about the authenticity of my Ty Cobb signed "Field of Dreams" movie poster?

Nope, you are fine....although, my affirmation is subject to a tiny ittsey-bittsey disclaimer.

Lovely Day...


1. As long as "Roaches Corner" is in buisness.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

It appears from the article that John Thorn, a SABR member, didn't want to discuss the pistol/shotgun issue. I thought John was a person who always wanted to set the facts straight and did great research. Why didn't he want to discuss this issue with the museum board members of the Ty Cobb Museum ? It also appears that Mike Gutierrez, according to the article, continued to sell fake Cobb autographs, even when it was known they were fake.

John is a member of Net54 so maybe he will chime in about that.

[iggyman]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

It also appears that Mike Gutierrez, according to the article, continued to sell fake Cobb autographs, even when it was known they were fake.

Here is the excerpt in the article relating to Mike Guiterrez.....

"Josh Evans, a widely respected memorabilia expert
and principal in the very successful Leland’s Auctions,
has a much more serious indictment of Al Stump.
Evans, a young collector and authenticator in the mid-
1980s when Al Stump was actively trying to sell Cobb
memorabilia, worked with Mike Guttierez on selling
the Cobb items that Stump supplied. Many of the
items were sold to Barry Halper, one of Evans’ best
customers. After seeing multiple batches of purported
Cobb items arrive from Stump via Guttierez, and
becoming ever more suspicious with each batch,
Evans notified Guttierez that, in his judgment, the
items were all fakes—not just the now-infamous
Stump letters on Cobb stationary, but many other personal
items that had supposedly been owned by Ty
Cobb. In a recent interview, Evans stated: “The Cobb
stuff that was coming to me through Gutierrez all
looked like it had been made yesterday. It seemed that
Stump was buying this old stuff from flea markets, and
then adding engravings and other personalizations to
give the appearance of authenticity.” Young Evans was
so distressed by the fake Stump material that Gutierrez
continued to sell that he first told Barry Halper of his
suspicions and then contacted the FBI in an attempt
to get an official investigation of Al Stump started."


I realize I'm nitpicking but a perplexing question that I have, is the moment it was established that Al Stump was a fraud, and the moment that Barry Halper was notified by Josh Evans that he was buying questionable Cobb material. Wouldn't Halper seek a refund and return all the bogus stuff??? Perhaps, he was too busy or didn't care to bother with a refund. But why did he keep all that stuff and actually tried to include it in his 1999 sale? Had he forgotten about its origin? Heck, I would venture to speculate, that if Halper would have made a big stink about it, the second Al Stump book would have never been made, nor would we have a Ty Cobb movie based on a now fictional book.


Robert Lifson,
the memorabilia expert who managed the 1999 sale of
the Barry Halper collection, examined dozens of Ty
Cobb artifacts and Cobb-signed documents sourced to
Al Stump, many of them identical to those described
by Stump in his 1981 correspondence with Howard
Smith. Lifson said in a recent interview that all Stump
items in the Halper collection became suspect after it
was proven conclusively that a Ty Cobb game-used bat
that Stump supplied to Halper was not authentic,
based on the dating of the bat by detailed analysis. Of
the large number of Ty Cobb documents from Stump
that came to Sotheby’s, practically all were judged by
Lifson to be fraudulent. Lifson went on to say, after
reading the content of these letters and examining the
forged signatures, that “Stump must have thought that
he was creating history, or something.” His faking of so
many Ty Cobb documents “must have been a pathological
issue with Stump, something deep-seated within
him. It was just crazy how Stump went to such elaborate
lengths to create the forged Cobb documents.”

Lovely Day...

[martyogelvie]

That was an excellent read! Thanks for sharing!

[iggyman]

W. Ron Cobb (the author of "Stumped by the Storyteller") should really really really be in charge of our new "hobby trade association"...........step aside, Marshall.............there's a new sheriff in town!

http://www.ajc.com/sports/ron-cobb-a-man-584100.html

Lovely Day...

[ChiefBenderForever]

Wow, amazing article, the real truth is Al Stump is a P.O.S. !!

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

Wow, amazing article, the real truth is Al Stump is a P.O.S. !!

So I guess that means I move my copy of Cobb by Al Stump to the fiction section of my library.

Zach

[iggyman]

Zach,

Absolutely, positively, YES! Without Cobb around to validate any of the stories in Stump's book. It will now forever be known as a work of fiction. Heck, if some old dictator decided to burn some books, I don't think you would get many complaints if it was thrown into the pile. The really sad part of this revelation, is that good old Al had a once-in-a-lifetime chance to make a fantastic book about Ty. But he blew it! Stump's version might have made him some money and a little fame, but he threw away his integrity in the process (albeit, 50 years later)...

Lovely Day...

[jthorn]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

It appears from the article that John Thorn, a SABR member, didn't want to discuss the pistol/shotgun issue. I thought John was a person who always wanted to set the facts straight and did great research. Why didn't he want to discuss this issue with the museum board members of the Ty Cobb Museum ? It also appears that Mike Gutierrez, according to the article, continued to sell fake Cobb autographs, even when it was known they were fake.

Ron Cobb just sent me an email and requested that I post it to the board in response to the quoted query. I provide without edit or further comment.

john thorn

John,

I read today a post to the net54baseball forum about my recent Ty Cobb article that mentions the 2006 email exchange on the shotgun, and questions why you declined to discuss it. I am very concerned that this reflects negatively on your decision not to pursue that email exchange further at that time. It definitely should not reflect negatively on you, and I did not intend my article to do so. I feel strongly that this should be clarified, so I would greatly appreciate your posting this email to the forum for clarification.

I should have made clearer in the article that the email exchange about the shotgun in 2006 was not with me, but with another museum board member, and that I had been forwarded the emails after the fact. That email exchange was begun with an emotional and argumentative email to you, which was perhaps illogical as well, and it lacked the basis on which a fruitful discussion could be pursued. You were certainly justified and correct to decline to discuss the subject further when approached that way.

Fortunately, you were gracious enough to overlook the unpleasantness of that email exchange when I asked earlier this year if you would review my article prior to it's publication. I certainly thank you for your review and for your comments, which were very insightful, and I hope that the posting of this email will clarify this matter completely.

Ron Cobb

[teetwoohsix]

Stump was a chump !!!

Serious though, thanks for the article-a very interesting read for sure.

Clayton