lelands and his type auctions should be made illegal

[sflayank]

lelands sent me an outbid notice at 4:13 a.m
yeah like i should stay up...consigners in this type of auction and bidders only can get screwed...put in a big bid and go to sleep and you can be sure that miraculously youll win your item at the top end of your bid...if you keep in your decent hi bid you can be sure one person will outbid you right at the close
probably a friend of the auction house
BAN ALL BIDS EXCEPT 1 INCREMENT BIDS AND CLOSE ANY LOT THAT DOESNT GET A BID FOR A HALF HOUR
THE CONSIGNOR LOST OUT ON MAYBE ANOTHER $5000 HAD I BEEN ABLE TO BID AGAIN, AND DONT TELL ME I SHOULD HAVE BID $5000 MORE WHEN I WENT TO SLEEP THEN I WOULD HAVE WON FOR THE MAX...YOU CAN COUNT ON IT...FROM A SHILL

[yanks12025]

That's the reason i never bid in any auction because of how the lot's close, i like Huggins & Scotts 10 minute rule.

[sflayank]

absolutely
every auction should close each lot individually
whether it be 10 minutes or 30 minutes
no time limit we will close when we feel like it is a joke

[Leon]

If you wanted it you should have stayed up. Many auction houses end at very late (or early morning) times. It's been going on for years. If there is something I can't live without then I stay up and bid or put in my max and hope it doesn't get run up. Sour grapes don't taste good. regards

ps...btw, some auction s/w won't allow auctions to close individually, and I am not sure that is best for consignors anyway....As a consignor I want the auction to stay open so people can continue to bid on my stuff.....it is debatable though.

[sflayank]

thats 100 incorrect..no sour grapes here
i received email at 413 am saying i was outbid and the auction closed according to net54 post at 413 am
so they didnt want to sell at that price
ill bet every card i own that that lot went to a friend of the auction house..i just happened to get outbid at the second it closed? so if that person would have waited 1 minute longer i would have won it?
i dont think so...i was willing to pay $8500 + the buyers and it went for 4500 + the buyers
so who got screwed... i would say the consignor
i would also be willing to bet that this item appears in another auction house within 1 year...that prediction has come true so many times its laughable....if u ask y i didnt put in 8500 when i went to sleep...because unquestionably i would have woke up and won it for 8500 because of shill bidding...thats why allowing bids past the increment should be outlawed

[ajg]

I didn't bid in Lelands but the way they end their auction leaves the door open for fraud and chicanery. All these big auction houses have larceny in their heart. I am a 47 year old man w a family and I am not gonna stay up until 4am (or later) to bid on a baseball card. It is stupid. Close the lot after 30 minutes or so. Im not saying Lelands or any other big auction house are crooks but............hmm.............

[Leon]

So if you wanted it that badly why didn't you just stay up and bid or ask for a call in bid? I do understand your concern about shilling as it's rampant in the hobby. I have bid in 100's of auctions and never had an issue as you had. If I want to bid more, I do. It's really that simple. As far as "outlawing" some form of bidding......sure. To me that is an insane statement. But you are certainly allowed your opinion. I am sure my opinion seems crazy to you .

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ajg

I didn't bid in Lelands but the way they end their auction leaves the door open for fraud and chicanery. All these big auction houses have larceny in their heart. I am a 47 year old man w a family and I am not gonna stay up until 4am (or later) to bid on a baseball card. It is stupid. Close the lot after 30 minutes or so. Im not saying Lelands or any other big auction house are crooks but............hmm.............

I am a 48 yrs old man with a family and if I want something that bad I will stay up until the next weekend. Many auctions end their way so either you bid or don't. If you think staying up to bid is stupid I think bitching about not staying up is stupid....and I walk away with the cards I want and you don't. No big deal. take care

[sflayank]

as far as i know shill bidding is against the law
it simply cannot be regulated
maybe if lelands or any auction house wants to prove its honesty they should post the names of all the bidders
i can only imagine the good laugh we would all get then
AND BTW what difference would it have made if i stayed up
they have the right to close the auction anytime they want
2 seconds after the outbid notice auction was closed...so the only way for me to win the lot would have been to put in a max bid and watch the shill go to work
thats what they want...they want people to put in max bids because that enables them to screw the max bidders out of the most money...thats the goal of max bids...no one should EVER put in a max bid
youre basically telling them to go ahead and screw you

[barrysloate]

An auction house can't post the names of the winning bidders. Those bidders are entitled to their privacy. And poster ajg shouldn't really be saying what he did anonymously.

I would have left the 8500 bid and taken my chances. Maybe you would have gotten it for 7500 and been pleasantly surprised. Maybe it would have gone for 9000. Who knows? I know it's frustrating but what can you do?

[sflayank]

what u can do is go the way of the other auction houses no bids for 10 minutes 20nminutes 1/2 hr whatever lot is closed
if someone is hi bid for 7 hrs after auction closing time
i think they should win the lot

[barrysloate]

That's reasonable Larry but we've had many debates on the board regarding what the best or the fairest system is for closing bids. Bottom line is not everybody agrees. Some like closing all the lots at once better, some prefer closing each one separately. There has never been a consensus.

[sflayank]

closing all lots at an announced time is ridiculous as everyone would wait to snipe like ebay
closing all lots when you feel like it like lelands does is ludricous as the door for dishonesty is wide open..thats not saying theyre dishonest just saying the door is WIDE open
you can close an auction at midnite with a 1/2 hr no bid per lot rule and every single person in the country has the ability to bid on that lot and can watch the clock countdown on their lot and jump in again if they chose...no max bids allowed eliminates shilling as the auction house wont know how hi youre willing to go,,if a shill outbids you theyre taking a chance that youll bid again when u may not

[Jim VB]

This is the silliest thread ever, even considering the source. Every auction house sets, and publishes their own rules for bidding. If you don't like them, don't use that house. You said it yourself, many items show up in future auctions anyway.

In the meantime, you should inure yourself to the fact that those rules are written to be of maximum benefit to the CONSIGNOR, not to you. If getting maximum value for the consignor inteferes with your sleeping habits, so be it.

Coming on, a day after the auction, and saying you would have paid more, doesn't really make you a bidder.

[sflayank]

well in this case the consignor lost over 4000
so how does this system benefit the consignor
if there was a 10 minute per lot rule i would have been up and watching...when u tell me we'll close when we feel like it
you lose many many bidders not just myself and the consignor loses money

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by sflayank

well in this case the consignor lost over 4000

No he didn't, because your bid is mythical. You never made it. Anybody can come here and say what they want, but if you don't make the bid, it isn't factual.

The fact is that you were too lazy to stay up, or too distrusting to place a max bid, early.

The way I look at it, if you distrust the auction house so much (and I'm not saying you should or shouldn't), then you should probably not do business with them. Why would you spend your money with a company that you think is dishonest?

[sflayank]

its a simple fact that placing a maximum bid promotes a high probability of dishonesty
i guarantee you that dozens of bidders went to sleep before the auction ended that would have bid more on the items they wanted
but just said the hell with it
that shows they dont care about the bidders or the consignors only about themselves
lebron james mentality

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by sflayank

...that shows they dont care about the bidders or the consignors only about themselves

Ridiculous statement. They have no fiduciary responsibility to a bidders sleep habits. The consignors and the house have goals that are in line with each other. That is, to extract the most from the bidders (Not you. The real bidders. People who actually bid, not just talk about it.)

That fact that you are too lazy or too distrustful to actually bid in their auctions can't be controlled.


Sour grapes from a guy who lost an auction.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by sflayank

thats 100 incorrect..no sour grapes here
i received email at 413 am saying i was outbid and the auction closed according to net54 post at 413 am
so they didnt want to sell at that price
ill bet every card i own that that lot went to a friend of the auction house..i just happened to get outbid at the second it closed? so if that person would have waited 1 minute longer i would have won it?
i dont think so...i was willing to pay $8500 + the buyers and it went for 4500 + the buyers
so who got screwed... i would say the consignor
i would also be willing to bet that this item appears in another auction house within 1 year...that prediction has come true so many times its laughable....if u ask y i didnt put in 8500 when i went to sleep...because unquestionably i would have woke up and won it for 8500 because of shill bidding...thats why allowing bids past the increment should be outlawed

The auction went well past 4:13 AM. I was outbid on an item around 4:30. My initial post occurred while other lots were still going. I won mine early, because there were no competing bidders. Per Lelands' rules, if there is only one bidder at the time of the initial closing, the lot is closed.

I believe that the auction closed to ALL lots around 4:45 EDT. I also believe that whoever outbid you was not a shill bid, but a calculated bid from a real person who wanted the item as much as you did.

If Lelands' format was the same as Huggins & Scott's, that other bidder simply would have bid within the earlier parameters. You would have been outbid regardless. Perhaps you would have had more time to counter-bid, but the price would have been driven up either way.

With regard to ceiling bids... I have won many items with Lelands for less than my top bid. But I do understand people's hesitance to leave a ceiling bid, given the corruption and some of the shady people within this hobby.

Neither format is perfect... I have been frustrated many times by the Legendary/H & S system, where I am outbid and cannot jump to another lot (because it has closed). In my case alone, this has cost consignors thousands of dollars. I can't even imagine how much money has been left on the table, given the wider scope.

[Rob D.]

The simple truth is one can point to any auction format and say it is costing consignors money.

All the lots close at once? I won't stay up until the early morning. It cost the consignor money.

Lots close individually? I got outbid on an item late and couldn't go back and bid on other lots. It cost the consignor money.

The auction house accepts ceiling bids? I won't do that for fear of being shilled. It cost the consignor money.

It's a live auction and I need to place my bid by phone? That's too inconvenient. It cost the consignor money.

The auction house picks a time when the auction closes? Ridiculous and too undefined. It cost the consignor money.

The bottom line is that no system pleases everyone. I didn't even know Lelands had an auction that ended last night, and while looking online at the catalog today I saw an Indians item that I would have paid at least twice the amount it sold for. I guess by not making sure I knew about the auction, Lelands cost the consignor money.

[barrysloate]

What Rob said...and I'm raising my hand for crabs.

Let me also add that in almost every auction I ever ran, I would receive a call the day after it closed by some confused bidder who forgot all about it (even though he received at least several email reminders in the final 48 hours). He would ask what lot so and so went for, and when I told him his response was always guaranteed to be along the lines of "that went so cheap, I would have gone much higher than that." There is always someone who wanted something really badly but couldn't manage to make note of the closing time. Not exactly the same situation as here, but along the lines of the day after bidder.

[rhettyeakley]

I agree that some of these auctions are getting a bt ridiculous, I was also outbid on the lot I was going after at around 4am ET but I guess that is life. I guess I'm not sure why the bidders are waiting until 4am to throw out bids, and I'm not really sure what a solution would be but it just seems to get later and later (or earlier and earlier) with every passing auction. I prefer the all lots end at the same time format as I can re-allocate funds if I'm going after many potential items, but when I'm going after a single lot I love the individual lots ending (Seriously, these auction houses should call me and see which one I want and end it that way!).
-Rhett

[barrysloate]

Rhett- bidders wait until 4:00 AM for a simple reason: they know they can, and nothing at all compels them to bid sooner. They wait eight hours after the so-called close before they even start to bid. I have discussed many times that it is a flaw in the system (but nobody listens). If the auction house told bidders that they would be closing at midnight no matter what (even if they were prepared to go later) every bidder would get his bids in early, and not a nickel would be lost. But like I said, nobody needs to bid early so nobody does.

[whitey19thcentury]

I am with Rhett....this whole late night/early morning thing is getting a bit ridiculous. When I went to bed (1:30 am-ish), I was the high bidder of 7 lots. The two I wanted badly I put really high bids in.

I got in today, and low and behold, I was outbid on several lots, with emails coming from between 2:30- 4:00 am

I don't have a problem with Leland's, because I have gotten many, many good deals over the years, but something has to be done with an auction ending at 4:30 am, especially since many bidders have a life. I get up between 5 and 6 am most days, including weekends for my business.

[calvindog]

Lelands still has an auction?

[whitey19thcentury]

Plus, it didn't help that they had issues with their website around 9:30-on.

[sox1903wschamp]

I had a bout with Kidney Stones last night and could not sleep so this auction played right into my hands . Lot's of action at 2-4am. Managed to hold on to win 1 lot. I much rather prefer the H&S and others method of closing lots individually. It is what it is and you have to adjust your thinking with these types of late late endings.

[hcv123]

Hi Larry,

Sorry to hear about the experience. I believe as you and many do that there are some less than honorable practices at major auction houses that are at best questionable and at worst illegal. With so much financial gain at stake, I do not see that changing anytime soon. If I was in your shoes, and I was willing to go 8500 and the item was at 4500 and I didn't trust the house, I would probably have put a ceiling bid in the middle - say at $6500 - maybe there is a shill, but perhaps I still get the item for way less then I would have been willing to pay. Or maybe the same thing happens and you feel a little less worse about losing because of the higher price. Regardless, I feel your pain. I have had similar experiences. In fairness to the houses, I have won items for below my ceiling bids as well. Be well.

-Howard

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by sflayank

its a simple fact that placing a maximum bid promotes a high probability of dishonesty

That is so not true. Bad character and lack of respect for others and for the law promotes dishonesty. Honest people don't steal, regardless of the temptation. Like The Clash said, "I been very tempted to grab it from the till; I been very hungry but not enough to kill."

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That is so not true. Bad character and lack of respect for others and for the law promotes dishonesty. Honest people don't steal, regardless of the temptation. Like The Clash said, "I been very tempted to grab it from the till; I been very hungry but not enough to kill."

While the idealistic sentiment is nice, stealing/dishonesty imho is a question of motive and opportunity. Put the right person (otherwise honest) in the wrong situation (needs to put food on the table) and give him opportunity(make it easy) for him to steal and think he/she will get away with it and it's a formula for disaster. That stated, it becomes almost like a math equation, the easier it is to get away with (opportunity), the less extreme the motive needs to be to open the door. I personally think the whole auction system offers easy opportunity - where are the controls? 3rd party oversight? Anything independent? Too much dependence on people to do the right thing. I want to qualify by saying I am sure that most DO the right thing, but little to assure those using the sytem that is the case.

[sflayank]

hi howard
in fact the item was only at 2100 i put in the 4100 at 1am
and was still hi at 2100...i purposely only put in 4100 because
they are on my list as usally forcing me to pay the max
but i knew they wouldnt let me steal it at 2100 so i hoped for 4100..instead they bought it back and sold it to a well known collector..or so ive been told
if i had put in 6500 or higher thats what i wouldve won it for
the price would have been ok for me but knowing that they shilled me to get it up to that price would bother me even more than losing it
if they had a 1/2 hr clock on it and there was a real bidder opposing me you would have easily seen it go to 8500 or higher
larry

[doug.goodman]

... who doesn't bid until the last few seconds.

On ebay, my logic is that this allows as little time as possible for anybody to outbid me, assuming that there isn't already a higher bid, and if there is a higher bid, then I don't have time to get "auction fever".

In other auctions, with moving end times, the later it goes the fewer people who stay up to bid against me. If it gets to late for me, I usually put in one more bid and then sleep with my fingers crossed. It ends however it ends.

Each auction has it's rules, many of them I don't particularly care for, but they are what they are, and no amount of bitching by me is going to change them.

I feel for Larry, it sucks to lose an item that I would have paid more for, but ultimately there was an easy way to not lose the item for that price, bid more. If he feels that the auction house is dishonest in it's practices than I really don't understand why he would be bidding in their auctions anyway.

Just my 2 cents,
Doug

[FUBAR]

If i could bid the day after, i would win every auction i wanted to!

I think Rob D opinion makes the most sense to me!