Thoughts on Buying from Legendary

[vintagechris]

I am interested in knowing if people are still bidding on Legendary Auctions. Have their legal problems caused you to not bid? Did anyone have any issues with their last auction as far as receiving items they bought?

[bcbgcbrcb]

I have never had any problems receiving items from them and I have averaged about 1 pick-up per each of their last 3-4 auctions.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by vintagechris

I am interested in knowing if people are still bidding on Legendary Auctions. Have their legal problems caused you to not bid? Did anyone have any issues with their last auction as far as receiving items they bought?

I don't think that delivery of goods was ever on the list of problems Mastro/Legendary has had.

[where the gold at?]

i bid once in there april 2009 auction on a 1941 Playball set all SGC graded i was out bid which is fine and dandy but the exact same set is in their auction again.........FACT

[HRBAKER]

An addict has to get his crack somewhere.

[drc]

Interesting quote Jeff. Some drugs can't be obtained above board.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by drc

Interesting quote Jeff. And crack can't be found above board.

Just to say, that in the end when dealing with a hobby or obsession most times the stuff wins out.

[Leon]

I bid in every auction and have never had an issue. A few times the shipping was a bit out of whack but 1 phone call and it was always taken care of. I have my sights set on several lots in their current auction.

[barrysloate]

I will be bidding too, and never had a problem. Delivering lots to winning bidders has not been an issue.

[Ladder7]

"Please note: If you already have a Mastro Auctions bidder account, you are automatically registered for all Legendary Auctions. Your Mastro Auctions Username and Password will allow you to log in and participate in this auction."

[calvindog]

After they defrauded me (and you) for years, they finally banned me. If you're a consignor of a high end Cobb card, however, don't worry; I'm pretty sure there is a secretary or some other unknowing 'bidder' who will make up for my missing bids. They won't win the auctions, of course, but the bids will be raised to the level that Doug feels is appropriate.

[barrysloate]

Does "(and you)" mean me?

[Orioles1954]

Maybe its because I'm surrounded by cardboard all day, every day, but if you think something is out of whack with auction house xyz and continue to bid with them....then you are helping to perpetuate such actions. Let me put it bluntly, if an "obsession" with cardboard overrides your sense of morals or integrity, then you seriously have priority issues.

[three25hits]

If they will screw their consignors, and they will screw their business partners, then at some point they will screw their bidders. (a)



a. they and their are rhetorical and not specific to anyone at all (b)


b. unless anyone specific actually screws their consignors and screws their business partners (c)


c. hypothetically speaking

[Wite3]

Simply put...no...I will not bid with them...I feel they are still unethical at the least and criminal at the most. I can usually find the items I look for (lower grade and usually available) other places.

Joshua

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Maybe its because I'm surrounded by cardboard all day, every day, but if you think something is out of whack with auction house xyz and continue to bid with them....then you are helping to perpetuate such actions. Let me put it bluntly, if an "obsession" with cardboard overrides your sense of morals or integrity, then you seriously have priority issues.

Yes, it's the victims' fault. It's the victims' lack of morals and integrity that allows them to get defrauded. Good reasoning here; you'd be a defense lawyer's dream on a rape trial.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes, it's the victims' fault. It's the victims' lack of morals and integrity that allows them to get defrauded. Good reasoning here; you'd be a defense lawyer's dream on a rape trial.

Jeff,

Cease with the drama and the "rape trial" and all that other drivel. You know exactly what the point it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

it is kinda pathetic -- we (using the collective loosely) bitch and moan and cast aspersion and shake our heads in disgust -- and then eagerly open up the catalog to see what's in the new auction.

[Orioles1954]

Pete,

Exactly, but remember you're a "victim" if you willingly participate in the action, fully aware and knowing of what is occuring.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Addiction/obsession makes for thick coats of teflon.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes, it's the victims' fault. It's the victims' lack of morals and integrity that allows them to get defrauded. Good reasoning here; you'd be a defense lawyer's dream on a rape trial.

This comment is out of line.

[Bosox Blair]

Never bid - won't bid.

This thread got me thinking...I believe I have only ever purchased cards from people I respect. This is not so much a moral position as a way I prefer to do business.

I am not tempted by the material...I have 100% faith that I'll be able to get any card I could ever want from a good guy at some point down the road.

Brief story: went to a card show recently. The place was awash in junk - a sea of shiny inserts and such. At one table there was a guy with good pre-war material. I walked up to him with a pocket full of cash...a rarity at this show that had way more lookers than buyers. After one minute of chatting with him, I knew he was a total tool. I exited the show with not one item in hand.

Pretty much the same idea with how I choose auction houses.

Cheers,
Blair

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Never bid - won't bid.

This thread got me thinking...I believe I have only ever purchased cards from people I respect. This is not so much a moral position as a way I prefer to do business.

I am not tempted by the material...I have 100% faith that I'll be able to get any card I could ever want from a good guy at some point down the road.

Brief story: went to a card show recently. The place was awash in junk - a sea of shiny inserts and such. At one table there was a guy with good pre-war material. I walked up to him with a pocket full of cash...a rarity at this show that had way more lookers than buyers. After one minute of chatting with him, I knew he was a total tool. I exited the show with not one item in hand.

Cheers,
Blair

Good for you, that's a great way to be! (even if you are a Red Sox fan)

[calvindog]

Stop with your holier than thou preaching. Only in this hobby are fraudsters coddled and protected so much. It becomes so ingrained in everyone's minds that it's ok for a little fraud to occur, it's just the way we things are done here and have always been. Someone lies at a show about a card's significance in order to make a few more bucks? Ahh, who cares, shake it off. Auctions are dripping with fraud? Ahh, who cares as long as it's not directed solely at me. I know what can make it better -- contracts signed by the auction house principals in which they promise not to rip us off! Yeah, that's the ticket. How about this concept? Don't break the law, period. It's not the victims' faults if they are robbed, it's the responsibility of the perpetrators of the fraud. Someone asked about Legendary and I told them. If you have something to add about Legendary, have the balls to say it; otherwise shut your hole.

[Bicem]

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…

[three25hits]

The only major auction house I have purchased from in the last 4 years is REA.

Do I know they are clean? Nope. But that uncertainty doesn't compel me to buy from those I know are dirty.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by three25hits

The only major auction house I have purchased from in the last 4 years is REA.

Dang, wish I had your patience!

[rdixon1208]

I would never do business with them. I guess I am not as into collecting as some of you, but it's just not worth it to me. I won't do business with someone that I don't think is honest...no matter how bad I want an item. I wish nobody would bid in their auction. Then nobody would consign to them. The material would still be sold...but it would be consigned through a more honest auction house. It all seems like common sense to me, but I'm just one guy from Texas.

[slidekellyslide]

I'm curious what some of you guys would do if Legendary were to auction off for example an 1893 Just So Cy Young and you needed that card for your Rookie Collection, or you are trying to complete the Just So set (This is obviously hypothetical) and you know that a certain Ivy League collector is your competition and you also know this Ivy League collector has vowed to be buried with his collection. Do you bid in the auction or does your moral compass tell you that your lifelong collecting dream of having the Cy Young rookie card die right then and there?

[three25hits]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'm curious what some of you guys would do if Legendary were to auction off for example an 1893 Just So Cy Young and you needed that card for your Rookie Collection, or you are trying to complete the Just So set (This is obviously hypothetical) and you know that a certain Ivy League collector is your competition and you also know this Ivy League collector has vowed to be buried with his collection. Do you bid in the auction or does your moral compass tell you that your lifelong collecting dream of having the Cy Young rookie card die right then and there?

My personal choice is not to do business with certain auction houses. There isn't a hypothetical situation that would make me change my stance. I don't even look at the lots in those houses. I am not sure why its such a big deal. I make my money. And I choose where to spend it.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Stop with your holier than thou preaching. Only in this hobby are fraudsters coddled and protected so much. It becomes so ingrained in everyone's minds that it's ok for a little fraud to occur, it's just the way we things are done here and have always been. Someone lies at a show about a card's significance in order to make a few more bucks? Ahh, who cares, shake it off. Auctions are dripping with fraud? Ahh, who cares as long as it's not directed solely at me. I know what can make it better -- contracts signed by the auction house principals in which they promise not to rip us off! Yeah, that's the ticket. How about this concept? Don't break the law, period. It's not the victims' faults if they are robbed, it's the responsibility of the perpetrators of the fraud. Someone asked about Legendary and I told them. If you have something to add about Legendary, have the balls to say it; otherwise shut your hole.

Jeff, I actually agree with you with most of this statement. Here is my problem. In past threads over the years you admitted to bidding with Mastro in order to obtain a very rare Hal Chase, Ty Cobb or any number of other rare cards. Then you would malign the same auction, even if you were actively participating. Not to cast dispersions on you Jeff, but weren't you funding these "fraudsters" with thousands of dollars who are "coddled and protected so much"? So here's a novel idea, don't fund perpetrators so they can continue to break the law even if they have an incredible piece of cardboard that you can't live without.

[calvindog]

Brian, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your position. And Dan, your point is well-taken but I just think you need to appreciate that only in rare circumstances can someone who bids on these auctions be responsible for being defrauded. As Jeff P notes, who knows what goes on during these auctions? One day an auction house is supposedly clean, the next day it's not. Maybe none of them are clean. I suppose if you want to be 100% sure you won't be defrauded you can simply stop buying cards; but this is just not a realistic situation. As I said, all we can hope for is that the auction houses obey the law of the land, nothing more, nothing less.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Jeff, I actually agree with you with most of this statement. Here is my problem. In past threads over the years you admitted to bidding with Mastro in order to obtain a very rare Hal Chase, Ty Cobb or any number of other rare cards. Then you would malign the same auction, even if you were actively participating. Not to cast dispersions on you Jeff, but weren't you funding these "fraudsters" with thousands of dollars who are "coddled and protected so much"? So here's a novel idea, don't fund perpetrators so they can continue to break the law even if they have an incredible piece of cardboard that you can't live without.

James, who knows who is clean? Remember when Mastro was supposedly clean? Somehow I suspect if I had a shot to look at the bidding records of every major auction house I'd find something going on. So what do you do? Just stop bidding? You have two choices: you can either accept being defrauded or you can do what you can to stop the fraudsters from breaking the law. If I didn't bid in anyone's auctions I'd just give up the hobby. That's the choice you are suggesting which I'm not prepared to do yet.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Bicem

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…

In the last couple years I have bid with REA, B&L and Heroes of Sport. Before I registered to bid with any of those, I had some form of personal exchange with each of Rob, Leon and young Mr. Jaimet that led me to have respect for them. Also, each had many who vouched for their above-board dealings. And I reviewed auction results from REA and B&L - I saw nothing to concern me in the way of outlandish results or outlier prices. Could any of them possibly be doing something offside? I suppose so. But I don't think so.

With Ebay, I have had many pleasant dealings with people. I end up being a repeat customer of many of these guys. I consider David B and bagger77 (Dave) to be great and stand-up guys. Basically, you are safe to buy from any guy named Dave .

Cheers,
Blair

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brian, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your position. And Dan, your point is well-taken but I just think you need to appreciate that only in rare circumstances can someone who bids on these auctions be responsible for being defrauded. As Jeff P notes, who knows what goes on during these auctions? One day an auction house is supposedly clean, the next day it's not. Maybe none of them are clean. I suppose if you want to be 100% sure you won't be defrauded you can simply stop buying cards; but this is just not a realistic situation. As I said, all we can hope for is that the auction houses obey the law of the land, nothing more, nothing less.

I just know I'm looking forward to this case proceeding and I hope the guilty parties are punished enough to make sure that others think very hard about committing the same things. I really wonder how much the skyrocketing values of cards in this hobby over the last decade or so are due solely to fraudulent activity combined with the "need" to have it mentality of many collectors.

[three25hits]

I should clarify my response. My response of REA only was in the context of those that send catalogs.

If we broaden the question to any auction, in addition to REA, I have purchased from B&L (one lot), 19thcentury (one lot) and ebay (several) in the last 4 years.

[barrysloate]

I agree with Jeff that you shouldn't in any way support people who commit fraud, but in the world of baseball memorabilia, if you are going to follow that rule to the letter of the law, you really need to find another hobby. Because for as long as I have been in this industry, fraud has been a way of life for a great many. It's unfortunate, but the fact that collectors are addicted and have a good deal of money plays into the hands of all the shady sellers. And while I have met a number of truly honest and fair people, they very well may be in the minority. And for all the stories of fraud we hear about on this board, there are oh so many more that don't go public. It's really pretty sad.

[bmarlowe1]

Very recently in a thread in this forum we saw that Leland's auctioned a photo of Miller Huggins that was easily shown to be Al Bridwell, and they knew it well before the auction closed. The got over 3 grand from someone for it.

I wonder how many people saw that, yet will still bid on items offered by Leland's.

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You have two choices: you can either accept being defrauded or you can do what you can to stop the fraudsters from breaking the law. If I didn't bid in anyone's auctions I'd just give up the hobby. That's the choice you are suggesting which I'm not prepared to do yet.

I believe that there is a third choice....don't bid with an auction house that you know is fraudulent. That doesn't mean don't bid with anyone unless you know without a doubt that they are 100% clean.

[Bicem]

what if we are only kinda sure that they are fraudulent, like 50/50?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

I believe that there is a third choice....don't bid with an auction house that you know is fraudulent. That doesn't mean don't bid with anyone unless you know without a doubt that they are 100% clean.

But how do you know that an auction house is a fraud when so many people on this board put up a BS defense for them, knowing full well they are lying in order to protect a 'friend?'

[jcmtiger]

I have consigned and bought items from Mastro in the past, everything went well. I have also bought from Lelands, 19th Century, ebay and antique stores.
Probably others that I don't remember. Since my interest is only 19th Century Detroit for the last few years, most auctions don't have anything I want or need. I have seen fraud from ebay, antique stores, and card shows when they were popular, not so much from the auction houses. I am willing to wait and see what happens with MASTRO anyway.

Joe

[bcornell]

"In May 2006, Mastro spoke with a collector regarding a L-1 Leather Ty Cobb item (a piece of leather with Cobb's likeness on it) that was then selling for $17,000. During that conversation, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum of $41,000. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector's maximum bid."
- Michael O'Keeffe article

I've stopped calling auction houses to remind them about my max bids. They can look it up in their database if they want to bump me.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Bicem

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…

Jeff....

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying it is not rational to avoid someone who has been caught.... because you don't know what others have done (who have yet to be caught)?

[paul]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

"Please note: If you already have a Mastro Auctions bidder account, you are automatically registered for all Legendary Auctions. Your Mastro Auctions Username and Password will allow you to log in and participate in this auction."

Is that Nuf Ced McGreevey? If so, your post is absolutely fantastic and apparently went unappreciated.

[calvindog]

Wow, good catch - and good point.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by bijoem

Jeff....

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying it is not rational to avoid someone who has been caught.... because you don't know what others have done (who have yet to be caught)?

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time )? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

[Leon]

Thanks Jeff..

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

"Please note: If you already have a Mastro Auctions bidder account, you are automatically registered for all Legendary Auctions. Your Mastro Auctions Username and Password will allow you to log in and participate in this auction."

"Nuf Ced" Very nice Steve

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time )? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

I see your point about most being dirty....
but I don't share your viewpoint of an 'all' or 'none' when it comes to refusing to do business with an auction house.

They may all be dirty.... I really don't know....
but I reserve the right to pick and choose the grade of dirty that I don't like most

Right now - there are two auction houses that I avoid. They've turned my stomach at some point.... so, I really don't care to send them a check. Its not etched in stone, its just how I feel right now.

There may be auction houses that do or have done worse things. But these two managed to find my stomach-turning grade of dirty.