Authenticity On These Psa Cards

[baberuth714]

I am looking to purchase these cards please advise if these are authentic as I have read there are fake psa holders being sold as real.

[calvindog]

The font on the Cobb flip is off.

[teetwoohsix]

You forgot the front scan of the Hank Aaron card..........

[ctownboy]

Let me guess,

1) they were on Craigslist and are from California

or

2) you are trying to sell them?

David

[baberuth714]

They are from California and I did not see them on Craigslist I am considering buying them but am very cautious

[Robextend]

Just a hunch, but I think they are all bogus and would stay away.

[teetwoohsix]

Like calvindog said-there seems to be something funny about the letter R on the flips............compared it to 20 different PSA graded cards I have and the letter R on the ones you are showing look different...I am no expert,just bored.......I wish I had that Cobb(minus the holder,that is)..........

[Abravefan11]

Not 100% but if I had to guess and quote Elaine from Sienfeld:

"Fake, Fake, Fake, Fake!"

[bbcemporium]

All of the fake Aaron RCs coming out of California I've seen or heard of have been PSA 6 or 7. As advised by the others, I would avoid these cards like the plague.

Out of curiosity, what is the background story the seller has given you on the cards?

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by baberuth714

They are from California and I did not see them on Craigslist I am considering buying them but am very cautious

No collection of fake cards is complete without a '33 Goudey Ruth and a '52 Topps Mantle. Ask the seller to dig around - he has them somewhere.

[barrysloate]

If you are not a veteran collector you should never, ever sink the kind of money into what those cards will cost you. Scammers prey on people with lots of money and little knowledge. This looks like the kind of deal that can only have an unhappy ending.

[buymycards]

One of the things that bothers me about these cards is the condition. Look at the right border on the MJ card. There is quite a bit of chipping. No way that this card would grade a 10. Also, and it is difficult to tell because of the scans, on the back of the MJ the bull does not seem to be real sharp, which happens on fake cards.

An 8 for the Cobb also worries me. The back is stained, and from the back view, take a look at the right corners. Way too sharp.

I have had to walk away from several deals that included a fake Jordan. If this was my deal I would walk away from this one also.

Rick

[FrankWakefield]

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[Zach Wheat]

There was a discussion a while back about the slight differences in fonts between a real PSA holder and the fakes on some of the high end cards you've noted. It is hard to spot. It was noted that the spacing between the letters was narrower on fakes. The "0's" also seemed to be a different width and as Jeff noted above the top loop in the R's was different.

Here are two scans of the T206 on a real flip and the one you posted above. Sorry about the poor quality scan but you can still see the difference in spacing between the letters. Maybe someone can post a better quality "real" T206 and it will be easier to see the difference.

The real T206 flip is below; for some reason I can't post bitmap images. Leon or Matt will have to convert the other image and post.

[Zach Wheat]

And here is the T206 lettering in the holder you posted above.

[jp1216]

I have a few PSA cards that were slabbed in the mid 90s. Font was different back then too. Very different.

[ScottFandango]

those are the Craiglist Fakes from about (8 months ago)....

very poor Flips IMO...dont see how someone got taken.....

could be the seller got screwed, and he is just trying to screw someone back and recoup som eof his losses....

[Peter_Spaeth]

The spacing on the serial numbers is slightly too close.

I would follow the 5-second rule used in the art world, if you aren't sure after five seconds that it's the real thing, assume it isn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA does need to confront its security issues. While I suppose anything can be replicated with enough effort, it seems to me that holograms, which they used until perhaps the early 2000s, might help.

[jcmtiger]

This is another Cobb PSA label. I had this graded in California at a show on site grading late 1990's.

Joe

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA does need to confront its security issues. While I suppose anything can be replicated with enough effort, it seems to me that holograms, which they used until perhaps the early 2000s, might help.

I agree, Peter, but the problem is, what do you do with the millions of PSA cards already in the markeyplace? Changed slabs, holograms, a unique font for the labels, would have been great ideas years ago, but now... a little late.

(By the way, this discussion isn't unique to PSA. Any grading company making visible changes faces the same issues.)

[calvindog]

You guys have to remember that PSA is making plastic slabs for cardboard -- not weapons-grade plutonium. Adding any extra security measures which they believe are not cost-effective is not going to happen. Everyone sends their cards into PSA anyway...I don't expect any significant change coming into effect.

And frankly, it took me a millisecond to note that the flips were off on the cards posted in this thread. Incredibly, the thieves can make great looking fake cards but they can't create a good, fake flip as well?

[Zach Wheat]

Thanks Joe. That is what I was trying to show for comparison purposes. The font spacing is tighter on the Craigslist fakes than on the real PSA flips, even though everything else (aside from the obvious type font changes over the years) seems almost right.

Would anyone pay more to grade high end cards for a "more secure" flip & holder on your high end cards? This may result in more comfort to a potential buyer when the cards are eventually resold. I probably would on the high end cards I had graded. But offerring this option from grading companies would be an admission that there is a problem.

[jp1216]

These kinds of threads scare me. I guess when you buy a high priced item - trust in the seller is very important. I now see the fake flips. I didn't at first... I will say - PSA slabs seem the easiest to crack/reuse.

Fake cards are getting way too good also.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You guys have to remember that PSA is making plastic slabs for cardboard -- not weapons-grade plutonium. Adding any extra security measures which they believe are not cost-effective is not going to happen. Everyone sends their cards into PSA anyway...I don't expect any significant change coming into effect.

And frankly, it took me a millisecond to note that the flips were off on the cards posted in this thread. Incredibly, the thieves can make great looking fake cards but they can't create a good, fake flip as well?

Only a matter of time before they focus on that. Holograms cannot be that expensive, they used them regularly for the first 10 years.

[ChiefBenderForever]

On any card worth over 100.00 or 250.00 they could include a small serial number card with a scan of front and back, it would be another step but they could include an extra small fee, or just a LOA with a scan of front and back, but I suppose those could be forged as well.

What I find the most amazing about this is that the Poster has only posted 3x's (all 3 on this thread) and everyone here is willing to just explain in minute detail how to correct the already fraudulant PSA flips. This way he can remake the flips over and over till he gets it right and then what?????

Isn't that how we learn about our cards. We ask and ask till it becomes ingrained and we can spot a fake a mile away. We learn from the best in our hobby and that knowledge is passed on and on to help.

So if we give these people what they need to learn how to fool us then isn't that like shooting yourself in the foot on purpose to see if it actually leaves a hole to see through.

It just concerns me about this kind of thing. Especially since he is a first time Poster/ect. This is just IMO

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

What I find the most amazing about this is that the Poster has only posted 3x's (all 3 on this thread) and everyone here is willing to just explain in minute detail how to correct the already fraudulant PSA flips. This way he can remake the flips over and over till he gets it right and then what?????

Isn't that how we learn about our cards. We ask and ask till it becomes ingrained and we can spot a fake a mile away. We learn from the best in our hobby and that knowledge is passed on and on to help.

So if we give these people what they need to learn how to fool us then isn't that like shooting yourself in the foot on purpose to see if it actually leaves a hole to see through.

It just concerns me about this kind of thing. Especially since he is a first time Poster/ect. This is just IMO

There is only so much you can do when it comes to these idiot crooks. What comes around goes around and eventually they will get what's coming to them. The sad thing is if these people would use the talents and skills they have to make an honest buck they would probably be quite successful, but instead will most likely end up squealing like a pig in a prison cell sooner or later and rightfully so.

[teetwoohsix]

I hate to admit it,but I seem to have trouble identifying fake flips (PSA) from legit ones.Usually when I buy PSA graded cards on Ebay(T206),I try to buy mostly from well known legit dealers(like tbarlage,for example).But I am learning alot from reading the board-and I appreciate all of the knowledge everyone on the board is so kind to share-thank you!!

I despise these fraudulent thieves who re-holder fake cards,make fake flips,doctor,alter,trim cards for the sole purpose of lining their pockets with their victims' hard earned cash.

It sucks to know these people cast a cloud over such a wonderful hobby.

Thank you to all of the card sellers who only sell legit!!!!!

[mintacular]

As much as I despise Beckett, I have not heard of anyone being able to tamper with/replicate their holders...

Originally Posted by mintacular

As much as I despise Beckett, I have not heard of anyone being able to tamper with/replicate their holders...

Send an altered card in and get a case back to start. Fake card or altered high dollar card next. BGS/BVG flips do not look that hard to duplicate as PSA's. Seal it and sell. Thing is BVG will not bring the most money for a card. This is why PSA seems to be the target.

Has anyone seen a fake SGC slab or flip??? I would love to see that if there is one.

[mintacular]

holders are damn near impossible to crack and reuse and finding a cheap imitation of their holder would be much harder than PSAs, I reckon...

Pat I was saying like with any other grading service if you send a card in for grading and don't want it holdered if it is Authentic they will send you the holder back with the card. Got one back with a 56 Topps Robinson I had done several yrs back. All I need is a fake flip and a card and I am in. 1 card can be enough for the time being. Or maybe send in 3-4 with a larger order of crap cards and 3-4 fakes can be made for a few $. Sorry if I was unclear about this.

[onlychild]

The Cobb card is very interesting and worth studying. Not only is it highly probable that the flip has either been completely faked or doctored (as discussed in several previous threads) but, as some have mentioned, the card looks to be altered as well. Not only does it appear to be trimmed but if you look at the back there is "a chance" that it has a rebuilt corner as well...top left on the back.

This caught my eye; the edge chipping on the back left side runs up to the point where there is a slight shadow. It then turns inward. On a good rebuilt corner a shadow will sometimes be seen under a halogen when angled at just the right position. Here is an example from the rebuilt corner page on my website:



The Cobb back is tough to tell because the scan is somewhat small. I took the corner and increased the image size and tried to get the correct color shading to make it easier to see...still tough though.




Not only does the chipping stop at the suspected shadow (dark line) with a blatant inward turn, the top edge also is shadowed to the point where a suspected rebuilt corner may begin.

Is that corner rebuilt? Hard to tell, it could just be reshaped to sharpen the corner but it is certainly something to consider. It would be great to see in person.


Kevin Saucier
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[Heritage Sports]

Credit goes to our division director here at Heritage Auctions Sports Collectibles division Chris Ivy for spotting this: the serial number of the Cobb t206 in question was actually lifted from a card we sold in our October 2009 Signature Auction. Here's the link:

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_ite...o=81002&src=pr

It's obviously pretty apparent that it is not the same card.

[Robextend]

Wow, great work!

[chris]

I just got an email from a guy named "ray rod jr"
email address: kalmanweiss1951@yahoo.com
Ebay user ID: cardboardtreasures311

He just offered to sell me the cards at 75% SMR. He emailed me through Ebay, so I have his Ebay id and his email address. The cards he sent in the scan are the exact ones you guys are questioning. I am going to notify Ebay that he is emailing Ebay sellers trying to sell phony cards.

[Zach Wheat]

Wow great job guys.

[ctownboy]

Chris,

Go one step further and alert the FBI and the local police in the seller's area. Even if he isn't arrested, if the police or FBI show up at his door or make it known they are on to him, it might do some good.

David

P.S.

Also, since this was ripped off from a card that Heritage sold, eBay might take more interest IF Heritage talks to them about this or if the real owner of the Cobb card steps up and says something. PSA might become more interested as well.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by chris

I just got an email from a guy named "ray rod jr"
email address: kalmanweiss1951@yahoo.com
Ebay user ID: cardboardtreasures311

He just offered to sell me the cards at 75% SMR. He emailed me through Ebay, so I have his Ebay id and his email address. The cards he sent in the scan are the exact ones you guys are questioning. I am going to notify Ebay that he is emailing Ebay sellers trying to sell phony cards.

Tell him you'd like to pay by check and you need his address. Then send the address to the FBI/Police.

[chris]

I asked him if he would accept postal money orders, if so to send me his mailing address for payment.
He replied:"Yes I will accept postal money orders. do you have a SMR and do you know what the total is. i think the aaron books at 18k and the Jordan 6k and the cobb 14k total 38k so 75% would be 28k for all three cards. I will accept 28 postal money orders for 1k each let me know if that is cool with you. my address is

Raymud Rodriguez Jr
1674 Palm Ave #80
San Diego CA 92154"

I then contacted PSA directly, they asked me to forward the images and our correspondence (which I did). They said that the operations manager would be looking into this as soon as the emails were received.

[Leon]

I have made a phone call and am very comfortable that the original poster in this thread is not a scammer but is helping all of us. I sincerely hope hope these fraudster(s) get their dues......best regards

[Anthony S.]

This get's a little creepier. I was wondering why a Raymud Rodriguez would have an email address of "KalmanWeiss1951." Sounded like someone's given name, and perhaps a not particularly common one (at least the first name, Kalman). So I googled Kalman Weiss and found a Kalman Weiss who was born in 1951. Matches the email address. Here's where it gets creepy. He passed away one month ago on November 3, 2009. His Ebay ID was changed on November 2nd.

[jp1216]

that is spooky... can't wait to read more on this. Great work guys.

[teetwoohsix]

Sounds like Mr.Rodriguez needs to have a "sit-down" with the SDPD,for a lot of reasons.Then,after Mr.Rodriguez finishes explaining himself,he needs to be fitted with some shiney new custom fitted silver locking bracelets,and led away to his new home,the county jail.Fry this dirtbag!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[barrysloate]

Stealing a dead person's i.d. is reprehensible...and my grandfather's brother's name was Kalman. It's an old fashioned name not seen too often today.

Originally Posted by Leon

I have made a phone call and am very comfortable that the original poster in this thread is not a scammer but is helping all of us. I sincerely hope hope these fraudster(s) get their dues......best regards

I am glad to hear this. I am also glad to hear that Chris found this guy and is going to turn him over to be prosecuted (hopefully)

[vintageclassics]

YOU SORRY net54 posters. you will never catch the guy behind this NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. you think that address is legit. you got another thing comming. I strongly recomend you guys shut your mouths and just deal with the poison that has struck PSA and the hobby hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahaha hahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahah CATCH THE GREAT ONE IF YOU CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vintageclassics]

OH and one more thing you dushbags should know I read this board all the time and the CU bord for many years. i read all the post almost everyday. so if you dushbags think we dont know who you are. you got another thing comming. catch me if you can dush bags lololololololololololololololololololololololololh aqhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahah i enjoyed taking all you dushbags money over the years.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by vintageclassics

OH and one more thing you dushbags should know I read this board all the time and the CU bord for many years. i read all the post almost everyday. so if you dushbags think we dont know who you are. you got another thing comming. catch me if you can dush bags lololololololololololololololololololololololololhaqhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahah i enjoyed taking all you dushbags money over the years.

That would be "douchebag." But if you google "Dush" and check its definition this will all make more sense to you.

That would also be "board", "don't", "your", and "coming." And I'm pretty sure you hacked up something nasty while laughing hysterically.

Can someone wake the moderator and ban this guy.

P.S. Seriously, google Dush. It made my night.