W519 Cravath question

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Posted By: Alan Elefson

Hi-
I recently picked up a small group of strip cards and I found a variation that I could not find listed in my 2003 SCD Big Book. It is #3 Gabby Cravath. I know this is an error (I searched old posts before posting this and I found out a great deal about Cravath including his "original" baseball nickname, Gavy, as opposed to Gavvy or Gabby as it is indicated on the card in this set. I also discovered how good of a hitter he was.), however my card has the name spelled Bobby Cravath. Below is a scan of both cards for comparison. The two Cravaths were found in a small grouping of baseball and boxing strip cards I found at an antique show a few days ago, so I am fairly cetain it is real (who would want to fake a card like this anyway?). I cannot determine if it is from W515 Numbered or Unnumbered as the cut is very poor. My question is, is this a known or catalogued error (if so, I apologize for wasting the board's time and I need to get a newer catalog)? Please also note the background color difference (did every card come with every color?) and the reversed image. I know these were printed cheaply, but I am surprised they would have issued a Cravath (whichever came first) and then issue another with his name spelled incorrectly once more (not to mention the reversed image thing). Any thoughts on the questions/musings on this post would be greatly appreciated.
One other question/observation concerning this set. Please see the scan of the four strip cards below (ignore the top two). There is a Joe Murphy numbered and unnumbered version. The image is reversed on this as well. Was this common between the two sets? Any idea which is correct?
Thanks in advance for all of your help,
Alan Elefson

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Posted By: Andy Cook

The Joe Murphy unnumbered is a W519 Unnumbered. The other one with the mirror image is a W521. I believe the two Cravaths are W519 and W521.

Andy

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Posted By: fkw

The G"o"bby card is interesting. There are actually 4 sets that use the same images. 3 W519 sets (unnumbered, and 2 different numbered) and like Andy said the W521 (reversed images).

because the G"o"bby card is trimmed so close its tough to tell which W519 set it is from, but since the background is not blue it would have to be W519-2-1 or the Rare W519-2-2.

W519-1 (no numbers) (image correct, blue background)

W519-2-1 (black ink numbers) Cravath is #3 (image correct)

W519-2-2 (blue ink numbers) Cravath is unknown, # is unknown (image correct)

W521 Cravath is #3 (image reversed)


ID of your other cards
Murphy without number is a W519-1
The other 4 (Robinson, Veach, Murphy, Cravath) are from W521


The G"o"bby card might be from the very rare W519-2-2 set. The W519-2-2 cards are rare and far from completely checklisted. The 2006 SCD Standard Catalog lists only 2 players (page 527), but I have seen 8 different players from this set (all high numbers between #11-#20). It is unknown if there are players in this set numbered between #1-#10 as none have been seen yet. It might be that there was only one strip of 10 cards issued (#11-#20), instead of the 2 strips of 10 cards like the other related sets. The easiest way to tell these from the other sets with numbers is these cards have numbers printed in blue ink.

Here is my list of known W519-2-2 cards

#1-#10 "unknown"
#11 Gleason
#12 Murphy
#13 Frisch
#14 Collins
#15 "unknown"
#16 Morton
#17 Marquard
#18 "unknown"
#19 Kreuger
#20 Ruth

*** If anyone has images of others with blue numbers that are part of this set, Id be intertested in adding them to my list.

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Posted By: fkw

And to further complicate things, the Joe Murphy is a mystery player. There is no such player that played in the majors as a catcher around 1920.
The closest is a Leo Joseph Murphy that only played one year (batted .098 in 1915 for Pit NL)

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Posted By: Kyle

Sorry I don't have a scan, but I will work on it. That W519-2 Collins above looks a lot different than the W519-1 Collins I have, obviously as you've outlined above. BUT mine has the image reverse, a red background and the card number is 19. Could this instead be a W521?

Thanks!
Kyle

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Posted By: fkw

Yes Kyle its a W521

On some of the cards that dont have names on the uniform or emblems on the hats its tough to tell if the image is reversed (W521). The easiest way is to look at the uniform buttons. All normal images will have the buttons on the right side of the seam (like the Ruth and Collins above).

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Posted By: warshawlaw

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Posted By: fkw

W519 unnumbered, or I call them W519-1

There are only 10 different in the W519-1 set (all have blue backgrounds), unlike 20 different in the W519-2-1 and W521 (W519-2-2 have 10 diff or 20 diff ??)

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Posted By: fkw

Does anyone have an image of a W519-2-1 Cravath?

Some collectors call it W519 numbered Cravath (#3).

The card would have a normal image (not reversed) and #3 in black ink.

If we can find an image of the W519-2-1 Cravath, we can solve what set the G"o"bby Cravath card (above) is from.


My guess right now is its from the rare W519-2-2 and originally had either #15 or #18 (before it was trimmed). If its from the more common W519-2-1 set, I would have thought the "O" error would have been known by now.



***Edited to answer my own question.
I found an image at Cardpricer.com, the W519-2-1 Cravath is spelled Gabby and has a yellow background (not pinkish). this proves the G"o"bby Cravath above is from the rare W519-2-2 set, but we just dont know what number it was (most likely either #15 or #18)

PS many of the card images at CardPricer.com for W519 and W521 are flip flopped. Alot of the images of W519 are actually W521's..... and the images of W521 are actually W519's. I wrote an email and told them which ones

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Posted By: Andy Cook

Here are my W519 and W521 Gabby Cravaths.
Andy

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Posted By: Alan Elefson

First of all, thanks to everyone who proffered help on the mystery Cravath card (especially fkw, I learn a great deal every time I read one of your posts). Personally, I would love for it to be a new addition to the W519-2-2 set. If it is from that set, do you have any idea an approximate value? I am guessing 10-20 bucks at most, because it is a strip card of a non hall of famer in very poor condition. Another question is, does anyone out there have another? I wish this was a one of a kind T card or E card that everyone needed for their type collections, but I guess I will have to keep searching for that elusive "holy grail"
Alan Elefson
aelefson@meditech.com

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Posted By: fkw

Around $20, mainly because of the lower condition. Many would just look at it as an average strip card as some dont even know of the 3rd type of W519's. The only way it might be worth more is if somehow someone can find a Gabby and then prove the Gobby varitiation (if it is one) is far rarer, which is unlikely since all cards from that set are tough. I dont think they would have corrected that error anyhow. I have been following them on eBay for about 5 years now and have seen a total of about a dozen from the W591-2-2 set (2 Ruths).

Im sure there are a few of these cards sitting in strip card collections, misidentified. Every single one Ive seen on eBay are just advertised as "1920's strip card", "W-Unc.", "unknown stripcard", or "W519", but I have yet to see one that actually says its from the type 2 numbered W519 set like the SCD lists them (SCD only has 2 cards listed, Morton, Frisch, and the value is the same as most strip cards or the era).

Here are a couple more, I also have a Marquard but its not scanned.