sweet caporal pins

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Posted By: kathy

When cleaning my grandparent's basement we found a whole box of old pins. Some are baseball players. They are very small. I found some on ebay, but they are rated. How do I know what the ones we have are worth?

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Posted By: Glenn

Can you post some pictures?

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

If you can't post pics can you list the names on the pins?

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Posted By: andy becker

pins of baseball players have value. do the pins have paper on the backside? if they do and the paper is in good condition, the value increases.
scans would help. if you do not know how to post them, you can email me a scan and i will give you some answers.
i have a decent amount of experience with pins....
regards

edited to add, duh....i just looked at the title of the thread.
if they are sweet caporal pins, then they were issued as a tobacco insert....same as tobacco cards, just pins.
sweet caporal pins are designated in the baseball card catalog as p-2.

p-2's are all valuable and collectible. as i said before, if the paper back is intact and in good condition....then the value rises.
value will be determined by:
-the paper back
-the clearity of the front
-overall condition of the pin....rust, foxing, etc.

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Posted By: dan bartenbaker

as an advanced collector of old,rare baseball pinbacks from 1896 to 1960 it baffles me why someone would place such importance on the backpaper of a pinback,when clearly the face of the pins condition as well as the centering are much more important.

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Posted By: robert a

I would place the most importance on the image, but I do enjoy when the paper is still there and in good shape.

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Posted By: kathy

I tried to take a picture of one with my digital camera, which is not top quality, and I must have to adjust the settings. There are about 50 of these little guys. Most have rust on the ring and some are missing the paper and the pin. I will try and list them all.
St. Louis Browns-La Porte
St. Louis Cardinals-Bresnahan (off center, rust on front)
Boston Rustlers-Herzog
Cleveland Naps-Lajoie
Washington Senators-Gray
Chicago Cubs-Schulte
Boston Rustlers-Herzog (Rust on front)
St. Louis Browns-La Porte (no pin)
Phila Phillies-Magee
New York Yankees-Chase
New York Giants-Merkle(rust on front)
Cincinnati Reds-Suggs (no paper)
Brooklyn Superbas-Erwin(no pin)
St. Louis Carinals-Evans (rust on front)
Chicago Cubs-Evers (quite rusty on front)
St. Louis Cardinals-Muggins(rust on front)
Pittsburgh Pirates-Leifield (rust on front)
Detroit Tigers-Mullin(extremely rusty on front)
Chicago Cubs-Chance
Phila Athletics-Collins(off center, rust on front0
New York Giants-Chief Meyers(off center)
St. Louis Cardinals-Phelps

There's more but I have to get going or I'll be late for work. I will try and list the rest tonight, our computer is having a crisis of some sort and sometimes doesn't function. So, forgive me if my answers are so delayed. Thank you for all your help!!! Kathy

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Posted By: andy becker

thanks for the list kathy.

from your note, it sounds like the pins are in lower grade.

rust, missing paper back, and missing pins will drop the condition grade.....to somewhere between poor and good.

they are still very collectible, just not worth nearly as much as pins without those defects.

dan, i agree that from a collector's standpoint the pins with a nice image and nice centering are more collectible....but as a collector, you must know that the backing does play a significant role in value....which was kathy's question.

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Posted By: dan bartenbaker

i don't agree from a collectors standpoint,that the paper back adds or subtracts that much in value at all. with the exception of say the schmeltzer's and maybee the diamond gum pin sets. rather it should be considered an added bonus to have the back paper there and in good shape. i welcome any other opinions on this subject from advanced pinback button collectors. dan

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Posted By: Chris

Hi Dan,

I think you may have just agreed with Andy -- you're right, it is an added bonus, which I believe is why people are willing to pay a premium for pins with fully in tact backings.

In my opinion it comes down to wanting to own a card, pin, etc as close as possible to its original "as produced" condition.

Regards,

Chris

edit: I'll add that I'm by no means an advanced collector...

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Posted By: andy becker

dan, perhaps i am not articulating myself properly.

the same condition (image, centering, etc) pin is worth more with the paper backing intact. that's not my opinion, it is a fact.

here's a couple analogies....

two excellent condition t206 cards (same card)....one has slight paper loss on the reverse, one does not. both are highly collectible, but the card without the paper loss is worth (value) much more than the card with paper loss.
even though both have the same eye appeal, they do not have the same value.

a more obvious example would be s74 white silks.
a silk with the paper back intact is worth (again, value) multiples of a silk without the paper backing.
even though both are collectible and both present the same.

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Posted By: kathy

So, would my best bet be to toss them all on ebay as a group? I really don't know what to do with them, no one I know collects baseball items. I think the paper back discussion is a good one. I think that it would increase the value even though it really doesn't refect on the whole reason for the pin, which is the guy on the front!!

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Posted By: dan bartenbaker

i wouldn't pay more for a pin with the paper present than if it was missing,as i believe that the condition of the image of the front of pin as well as the rim is the true barometer of a pins value. negative types of condition would be any cracks in the celluloid,as well as any foxing(brown spotting) that is caused when moisture gets under the cellulod covering affecting the paper image beneath it. kathy had listed this as rust on the front but had to be foxing as rust can only occur on metal,which is on the back and the collet(back rim) which by the way can be cleaned off very carefully or left alone as it is not part of the image of the pin. in conclusion pinback buttons are so much different than baseball cards and can not be valued by condition of back in the same way. i hope i have shed some more light on the amazing world of collectible baseball pinback buttons. dan

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Posted By: martindl

Kathy,
Depending on how much work you want to put into it, here's what i would suggest.

* Don't list them all in one big group
* Minimally, use this site http://www.baseball-reference.com/ and go through each of your pins and determine who is in the Hall Of Fame - these pins will generally be the more 'valuable' ones - list them individually
* If you want to put more effort into it, go to a good local bookstore - Barnes & Noble, etc. and browse through either the 2006 Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards or the Beckett Catlog of Baseball cards and look up the pins. You will see that there are variations - big letter/small letters, etc. that impact 'value' - it will also give you a sense of value for all of your pins. Don't get enamored with the NM price column, even if you have pins that fit this description - again, list the most valuable pins individually
* For the rest of them, you might want to break them into lots by team, or just into groupings of 5 or so, based on condition. Don't mix poor and good condition pins together
* Regardless of supposed value, don't put a high opening price nor a reserve. There are many collectors of these items and you pins will fetch decent prices, if you have decent pins. Make you auction a 7 day auction and start it on a Sunday evening. Don't get concerned if there's little inital bidding activity, as folks like to wait until the very end to bid. Don't accept offers to end you auction early for a buy-it-now price. Sometimes you'll get burned by taking this advice, but rarely.

My 10c. I'm sure others have simialr advice. Good luck with your pins. You can email me if i can help further at mdalziel01@aol.com or just post here on the board.

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Posted By: Bob

I think you guys would be amazed as to how much more desirable P-2s with paper backs are and how a complete back is better than a back with a rip. Yes I know that the front's the thing, but having just sold a near set in mastro, I can tell you that the bidders were interested that all but one of the pins had a complete back. If you are going to get them slabbed (I didn't I broke all the slabs open when I bought them one by one) you better have the back and it better be complete. If you want to buy one P-2 simply because its your favorite player, you can do without the back, I guess, because the image is everything to you.
my 2 cents.

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Posted By: dan bartenbaker

it's very upsetting to me to see that grading(slabbing) has befelled something as unique as old baseball pinback buttons,just so someone can sell them for more than they are actually worth. so i applaud bob for breaking open slabs and freeing these little gems to be veiwed and sold as they were meant to be. i'm noy a fan of grading yet it has taken over most sales of baseball cards in are industry,and though a few people have chose to send in pins to be graded,my hope is that if they are true pin collectors they will know what there items are worth and don't need a so called expert to tell them that. so please think before you slab!!!!!!!