Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[Peter_Spaeth]

Another day, another significant allegation about altered cards, this time SGC graded CJs in the current Heritage among others. Including an SGC 9 1915 Walter Johnson allegedly "improved" from a 5. As always, form your own judgments.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Another day, another significant allegation about altered cards, this time SGC graded CJs in the current Heritage among others. Including an SGC 9 1915 Walter Johnson allegedly "improved" from a 5. As always, form your own judgments.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

Have we reached a point to where the grading companies are just Guessing ????

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Have we reached a point to where the grading companies are just Guessing ????

For me, that’s been the real question for awhile now. Are the TPGs incompetent or are the corrupt, giving higher grades and ignoring altered cards for preferred/ high volume submitters?

[perezfan]

This is disgraceful. Perhaps it is time for the Heritage Rep (Pete) to come onboard here and have a frank discussion. We need to know what Heritage is doing specifically to combat this ongoing fraud. Are they confronting their dirty consignors at all? If so, what are the consequences? Who (if anyone) have they blacklisted? Heritage's track record has been to turn a blind eye and let these fraudulent auctions run their course.

Heritage is very adept at hyping their own auctions and promoting their wares. No hesitancy there. Now it's time they use their advanced communication skills to explain how these altered/numerically graded cards keep showing up in their auctions.

If we are complacent about this, it will only continue to get even worse. Any collector who cares about the hobby should be bombarding Heritage with calls and concerns. Otherwise, if collectors are too blinded by greed to recognize the massive failure of the TPGs, I suppose they'll get what they deserve.

Just my two cents.

[aconte]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Have we reached a point to where the grading companies are just Guessing ????

That may have happened long ago. We just didn't know it.

I can't believe someone would work on a CJ graded a 5 or 8.5. That's having
confidence in your work and no respect for the grading company.

Interesting that the OP can trace this down to original submission numbers.
Good thing SGC uses random cert#'s now.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by aconte

I can't believe someone would work on a CJ graded a 5 or 8.5. That's having
confidence in your work and no respect for the grading company.

That's my first thought to. These cards were already high-end.

I'm always skeptical when one of these threads pop up. Mostly because I don't want to believe this is as pervasive as it is. Then I look at the evidence shown, and almost every time it's a no doubter.

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

Sure, there was plenty of trimming and re-coloring going on then by raw card sellers. Hell, I think re-colored 1971 Topps have been around since 1972, LOL! ......But it was almost always sloppy as sh*t, and easy to spot from a mile away.

Sad it's come to this. Those cards were beautiful already.

[Republicaninmass]

You build a better mouse trap, they build a better mouse.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

They don't exist now either. Not in their natural state, anyway.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by perezfan

They don't exist now either. Not in their natural state, anyway.

To be fair. They exist. They just happened to find the fountain of youth at some point between 1985 and 2021.

A little nip here.......a little tuck there..........presto, bingo, you're a Super Model now.

[D. Bergin]

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

Too many high dollar collectors have waaaaaaaay too many of these cards in their collections for it to go any other way.

I mean, if we can sell NFT's to the general public..........why not "card art and restoration"?

"I turned my 5 into a 10", will be flouted openly among "market traders".......and likely sooner then most people think.

[Johnny630]

We are at a Point Where People Spending Big Money on these Cards in Auctions DO NOT CARE HOW MUCH WORK HAS BEEN DONE ON THE CARD AS LONG AS IT'S IN A PSA OR SGC HOLDER WITH A NUMERICAL GRADE, THAT"S ALL THAT MATTERS.

SADLY ZERO IS GOING TO CHANGE, OTHER THEN RECORD HIGH SALES.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

Too many high dollar collectors have waaaaaaaay too many of these cards in their collections for it to go any other way.

I mean, if we can sell NFT's to the general public..........why not "card art and restoration"?

"I turned my 5 into a 10", will be flouted openly among "market traders".......and likely sooner then most people think.

Pretty good hypothesis, and definitely a possibility. Not much difference between a virtual image and an enhanced one.

I suppose if it really goes that route, the TPGs will pretty much be rendered as useless and obsolete. The grade of "A" will be the same as "10". And in many cases, it already is!

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think it's only a matter of time before the skill that goes in "restoring" these cards, becomes an actual selling point in the resale market.

I think it is already in existence. I do not remember if it was posted here or a different forum, but there are groups on facebook where card fixers get together to share advice on how to restore cards. Maybe it was here. I don't know if these groups go as far as being considered buyers clubs, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Especially if the grading companies continue to accept the restored cards and people are making money off of it.

But there will always be purists in cards that do not believe that anything should be altered or restored. Same as with anything. Such as for years we are always hearing about the purists of baseball hating on this rule or that rule or players flipping bats or celebrating. It is just part of life.

[shagrotn77]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

That's my first thought to. These cards were already high-end.

I'm always skeptical when one of these threads pop up. Mostly because I don't want to believe this is as pervasive as it is. Then I look at the evidence shown, and almost every time it's a no doubter.

It's a miracle any Cracker Jacks survived through the years in 4 or 5 condition. Let alone 8's, 9's, and 10's with pointy corners and snow white borders.

These cards simply didn't exist when I was doing card shows in the 80's.

Sure, there was plenty of trimming and re-coloring going on then by raw card sellers. Hell, I think re-colored 1971 Topps have been around since 1972, LOL! ......But it was almost always sloppy as sh*t, and easy to spot from a mile away.

Sad it's come to this. Those cards were beautiful already.

This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition.

1 - Why not, it's their fault.

2 - Kinda? Hahahaha.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

This!!! I too was a regular at cards shows in the late 80s and early 90s and you NEVER saw high-grade vintage. I'm not blaming buyers, but it's kinda naive to think that a Cracker Jack card that's more than 100 years old could be in mint condition. Same with a T206 card that was packed in a tight little box with cigarettes. After all, protective holders didn't come out until, what, the 70s or 80s?

I get what you are saying, but 1915 Cracker Jacks were available as complete sets and custom albums were available. If a set was immediately put in an album, I assume that they could be soaked out. That scenario could yield some pristine cards.

[campyfan39]

The entire concept is completely subjective and ripe for problems. Congrats to people who love it and make money from it but this is one of several reasons I don't have any slabbed cards.
Just my .02

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Have we reached a point to where the grading companies are just Guessing ????

Originally Posted by campyfan39

The entire concept is completely subjective and ripe for problems. Congrats to people who love it and make money from it but this is one of several reasons I don't have any slabbed cards.
Just my .02

Yep. Me neither. Never had one graded and never will. Just doesn't matter to me as a collector.

[Mrc32]

What incentive do these grading companies have to actually discover these altered cards?

Doesn't PSA get a lot more attention if they have a 1915 CJ Joe Jackson in a PSA 9 than a PSA 4? They aren't going to research every card like the skilled guys over on blowout do. They have a 6 month backlog as it is - and they are grading a card ever 90 seconds.

It really is a shame - but until buyers stop paying up for altered cards it won't stop.

Originally Posted by Mrc32

What incentive do these grading companies have to actually discover these altered cards?

Doesn't PSA get a lot more attention if they have a 1915 CJ Joe Jackson in a PSA 9 than a PSA 4? They aren't going to research every card like the skilled guys over on blowout do. They have a 6 month backlog as it is - and they are grading a card ever 90 seconds.

It really is a shame - but until buyers stop paying up for altered cards it won't stop.

Truth. Incentive, time and demand. No demand no market.

[bigfish]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Another day, another significant allegation about altered cards, this time SGC graded CJs in the current Heritage among others. Including an SGC 9 1915 Walter Johnson allegedly "improved" from a 5. As always, form your own judgments.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1460488

Huggins and Scott knows who bought them

SGC knows who graded them

Heritage knows who consigned them

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bigfish

Huggins and Scott knows who bought them

SGC knows who graded them

Heritage knows who consigned them

Omerta is the rule of this hobby. As I've said many times, the unholy alliance among card doctors, TPGs and AHs.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Omerta is the rule of this hobby. As I've said many times, the unholy alliance among card doctors, TPGs and AHs.

Just for those of us not "in the know"... what the hell is Omerta?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Just for those of us not "in the know"... what the hell is Omerta?

Mafia Code of Silence.

[ejharrington]

I see the 1915 Tris Speaker 9.5 on the thread. I went to Heritage and blew the image up and can't see anything that looks obvious as alterations. But I'm no expert. Does anyone else see anything that looks off?