Hal Newhouser

[theshleps]

Does anyone know why there are so few cards of Hal Newhouser from his playing days. No Bowman, etc, very few Topps, etc?

[Republicaninmass]

I've been looking for his leaf for quite a while. I can only think because he made the hall in "92 near to his death in '98 people didnt seek him out, and possible he was forgotten after his playing days.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Very odd career. Well over half his wins came during just five seasons, and he won only 22 games from age 30 on. And like Koufax, he had a number of mediocre to average years before his great streak. It's hard to attribute his success to WW II because he wasn't so great in 42 or 43 and he was nearly as good in 46 as he had been in 44 and 45.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Very odd career. Well over half his wins came during just five seasons, and he won only 22 games from age 30 on. And like Koufax, he had a number of mediocre to average years before his great streak. It's hard to attribute his success to WW II because he wasn't so great in 42 or 43 and he was nearly as good in 46 as he had been in 44 and 45.

..his autographed 1946 Sports Exchange hand-cut card. Not a lot of his cards out there indeed.

..

[theshleps]

any idea why no bowman?

[G1911]

I wish he'd been in more of the early 50's sets, but his 1953 Topps is one of the most gorgeous cards of the decade

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by theshleps

any idea why no bowman?

Here is the 1949 LEAF card of Newhouser. It was issued in LEAF's 2nd Series and is an extremely tough card to find.


.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Very odd career. Well over half his wins came during just five seasons, and he won only 22 games from age 30 on. And like Koufax, he had a number of mediocre to average years before his great streak. It's hard to attribute his success to WW II because he wasn't so great in 42 or 43 and he was nearly as good in 46 as he had been in 44 and 45.

Peter

I think Hal Newhouser has the record for the most WINS during the decade of the 1940's....170. It's my understanding that this achievement influenced his induction into the HOF.
Plus another factor was Charlie Gehringer, who was Chairman of the HOF Veterans Committee in 1992, and a former Detroit teammate of Newhouser.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

BOWMAN most likely did not get the Rights to portray Newhouser. LEAF and TOPPS did.


1953 TOPPS Hi # ...... and, limited issue 1973 TOPPS test set card.









TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here is the 1949 LEAF card of Newhouser. It was issued in LEAF's 2nd Series and is an extremely tough card to find.


.







Peter

I think Hal Newhouser has the record for the most WINS during the decade of the 1940's....170. It's my understanding that this achievement influenced his induction into the HOF.
Plus another factor was Charlie Gehringer, who was Chairman of the HOF Veterans Committee in 1992, and a former Detroit teammate of Newhouser.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted yeah I think he got in under the Dizzy Dean/Sandy Koufax exception that where you only have 5 or so great years but they are REALLY great years, they'll overlook insufficient career numbers. It's strange how he suddenly became great and just as suddenly went back to being average.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ted yeah I think he got in under the Dizzy Dean/Sandy Koufax exception that where you only have 5 or so great years but they are REALLY great years, they'll overlook insufficient career numbers. It's strange how he suddenly became great and just as suddenly went back to being average.

Peter

Don't discount the influence of Gehringer as the Chairman of the HOF Veterans Committee in getting Newhouser in the HOF.

Gehringer was quoted as saying that he would never allow Rizzuto to be inducted in the HOF. When Charlie was no longer on this HOF Committee and Ted Williams was on this
Committee, Rizzuto got in.

I was not surprised about Rizzuto being in the HOF, since in a conversation with Ted Williams (in Cooperstown in the 1980's), Ted personally told me how he felt about Rizzuto.
Ted said.... " If The Scooter was with the Red Sox all those years, the Red Sox would have been the Champions and not the Yankees ". He thought very highly of how effective
Rizzuto was as a lead-off batter, a base stealer, and a Shortstop.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Odd thing for Ted to say because Boston had a fine ballplayer and regular .300 hitter, Johnny Pesky, at SS through the early 50s and Ted was good friends with Pesky I believe.

[trdcrdkid]

Considering that his peak came during years when there were few or no nationally distributed baseball card sets, the number of contemporary cards of Newhouser is about what you would expect (1949 Leaf, 1953 Topps, 1955 Topps, plus the 1947 Sports Exchange photo that Mike Garcia posted, the tiny little 1950 R423, and some Exhibits). The lack of Bowmans is presumably because they didn't have the rights, as Ted Z. said.

Newhouser actually pitched pretty well in 1942 and 1943, making the All-Star game both years, but the Tigers gave him very little run support, so his W-L record suffered. And this has nothing to do with his cards, but Newhouser was one of the meanest, most disliked players in baseball during his career, with a legendary temper.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ted yeah I think he got in under the Dizzy Dean/Sandy Koufax exception that where you only have 5 or so great years but they are REALLY great years, they'll overlook insufficient career numbers. It's strange how he suddenly became great and just as suddenly went back to being average.

I don't think that is fair. Newhouser pitched for 17 years (14 if you don't count 3 where he barely pitched). He won 207 games, had a 3.06 ERA and a 130 ERA+. Those are pretty solid numbers. He won 2 MVPs and finished 2nd. He was an All Star 6 years in a row (would have been 7 if there was a 1945 game).

63.3 WAR 52.8 WAR 7 58.0 JAWS. That is just ahead of Juan Marichal, Roy Halladay, Clayton Kershaw (Is he a HOFer if he retired at the end of this year?), Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, John Smoltz, Don Sutton, Early Wynn and Whitey Ford. These are the non Hofers with a higher JAWS: Roger Clemens (steroids), Curt Schilling (most think he will get in), Mike Mussina (most think he will get in) and 3 19th century guys who only pitched 10 or 11 years (Jim McCormick, Tommy Bond and Charlie Buffington). He's tied with Wes Ferrell who many think should have been in but the Veteran's Committee may have confused him with his brother. Koufax and Dean had their careers cut short by injury, Newhouser didn't. You would want to have a pretty small Hall of Fame if you think his career numbers are insufficient.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Considering that his peak came during years when there were few or no nationally distributed baseball card sets, the number of contemporary cards of Newhouser is about what you would expect (1949 Leaf, 1953 Topps, 1955 Topps, plus the 1947 Sports Exchange photo that Mike Garcia posted, the tiny little 1950 R423, and some Exhibits). The lack of Bowmans is presumably because they didn't have the rights, as Ted Z. said.

Newhouser actually pitched pretty well in 1942 and 1943, making the All-Star game both years, but the Tigers gave him very little run support, so his W-L record suffered. And this has nothing to do with his cards, but Newhouser was one of the meanest, most disliked players in baseball during his career, with a legendary temper.

Kind of begs the question why Bowman didn't have the rights. Look at all the players who were in most or many of the early Bowman issues, not all of whom by any means were stars at their peak. Look at all the sets he wasn't in: 48-55 Bowman (8) and 52 and 54 Topps. So he was in 3 sets, and not in 10. Not to mention none of the 54 regionals. To me, anyhow, that doesn't sound like about what one would expect for a HOFer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I don't think that is fair. Newhouser pitched for 17 years (14 if you don't count 3 where he barely pitched). He won 207 games, had a 3.06 ERA and a 130 ERA+. Those are pretty solid numbers. He won 2 MVPs and finished 2nd. He was an All Star 6 years in a row (would have been 7 if there was a 1945 game).

63.3 WAR 52.8 WAR 7 58.0 JAWS. That is just ahead of Juan Marichal, Roy Halladay, Clayton Kershaw (Is he a HOFer if he retired at the end of this year?), Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, John Smoltz, Don Sutton, Early Wynn and Whitey Ford. These are the non Hofers with a higher JAWS: Roger Clemens (steroids), Curt Schilling (most think he will get in), Mike Mussina (most think he will get in) and 3 19th century guys who only pitched 10 or 11 years (Jim McCormick, Tommy Bond and Charlie Buffington). He's tied with Wes Ferrell who many think should have been in but the Veteran's Committee may have confused him with his brother. Koufax and Dean had their careers cut short by injury, Newhouser didn't. You would want to have a pretty small Hall of Fame if you think his career numbers are insufficient.

And a hugely disproportionate part of that comes from a few off the charts years. Outside of those years, he was at best an average pitcher. I'm not saying kick him out, I'm just saying he's in the Koufax and Dean wing.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Odd thing for Ted to say because Boston had a fine ballplayer and regular .300 hitter, Johnny Pesky, at SS through the early 50s and Ted was good friends with Pesky I believe.

Pardon me if I correct you....Vern Stephens was the main SS for the Red Sox (1948 - 1952). Johnny Pesky played 3rd base.

TED Z
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pardon me if I correct you....Vern Stephens was the main SS for the Red Sox (1948 - 1952). Johnny Pesky played 3rd base.

TED Z
.

I was thinking of 46, the Enos Slaughter play, when he was definitely at SS, but you're right he moved over after 47. In any case, Vern Stephens had some HUGE years for the Red Sox in that time period, 130 RBI type seasons. 1ndeed, a 159 RBI season. I doubt Rizzuto would have been an improvement notwithstanding his intangibles.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I was thinking of 46, the Enos Slaughter play, when he was definitely at SS, but you're right he moved over after 47. In any case, Vern Stephens had some HUGE years for the Red Sox in that time period, 130 RBI type seasons. 1ndeed, a 159 RBI season. I doubt Rizzuto would have been an improvement notwithstanding his intangibles.

OK, I'm guessing that you are doubting that Ted Williams said what I said he said regarding Phil Rizzuto ? ?

That's your prerogative. However, I have no reason to have "fabricated" this. I had a very friendly conversation with Ted for about an hour. He did most of the talking
and I did a lot of listening.
The subject of Rizzuto came up when I told Ted that I grew up in Hillside, NJ two blocks of where Rizzuto lived. And, I was an avid Yankees fan. Ted, then, responded
with what I said in the above post. His comment did surprise me. But, Ted elaborated on the benefits of having a very effective lead-off hitter like Rizzuto.

Yes, Stephens had a "big bat" (he batted clean-up). But trust me, Ted Williams favored Rizzuto.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't doubt you at all Ted. Why would I? I just said it was an odd thing for him to say, given how the Sox were very well represented at SS.

[parker1b2]

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, I'm guessing that you are doubting that Ted Williams said what I said he said regarding Phil Rizzuto ? ?

That's your prerogative. However, I have no reason to have "fabricated" this. I had a very friendly conversation with Ted for about an hour. He did most of the talking
and I did a lot of listening.
The subject of Rizzuto came up when I told Ted that I grew up in Hillside, NJ two blocks of where Rizzuto lived. And, I was an avid Yankees fan. Ted, then, responded
with what I said in the above post. His comment did surprise me. But, Ted elaborated on the benefits of having a very effective lead-off hitter like Rizzuto.

Yes, Stephens had a "big bat" (he batted clean-up). But trust me, Ted Williams favored Rizzuto.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Lived on Purce St in Hillside first 3 years of my life. 1977-1979ish

[insidethewrapper]

He probably always was a hard guy to sign a licensing agreement with. He had a bad temper and was not liked by many. I couldn't imagine someone asking him for permission to be in a set and offer him a few dollars. He would balk at that. My dad ( now age 96) played against him in American Legion ball before the Tigers signed him, and he stated he was "a jerk". He would throw his mitt on the ground and stare at any player who made an error when he was pitching. He was great during the war years when many great players were not on the rosters.

[PowderedH2O]

Roy Cullenbine would have liked to have half the amount of cards that Hal Newhouser had...

[paul]

Newhouser also is missing from the 1953 Glendale Meats set, which featured only Detroit Tigers. Maybe Mike is right and he just didn't like signing agreements to have his face on cards. But it's still odd that he appeared in the 53 and 55 Topps sets, but not 51, 52, or 54.

[Chris-Counts]

The fact that so many great players are in the Leaf set and there are so many omissions in early Topps and Bowman sets makes me wonder if Leaf even had permission to make cards of all the players in its set. I understand Berk Ross didn't get permission to make cards of players in its sets.

[Chris-Counts]

The fact that so many great players are in the Leaf set and there are so many omissions in early Topps and Bowman sets makes me wonder if Leaf even had permission to make cards of all the players in its set. I understand Berk Ross didn't get permission to make cards of players in its sets.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

The fact that so many great players are in the Leaf set and there are so many omissions in early Topps and Bowman sets makes me wonder if Leaf even had permission to make cards of all the players in its set. I understand Berk Ross didn't get permission to make cards of players in its sets.

Bowman sued Leaf in 1949 for issuing cards of players with whom Bowman has exclusive contracts, and that’s why the second series (the “short prints”) was pulled from the market. See my post about 1949 Leaf baseball at the link below, and also Ted Z’s article about the set in the Fall 2006 Old Cardboard (cited in the comments to my post).

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=232507

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

The fact that so many great players are in the Leaf set and there are so many omissions in early Topps and Bowman sets makes me wonder if Leaf even had permission to make cards of all the players in its set. I understand Berk Ross didn't get permission to make cards of players in its sets.

It's my understanding that Joe DiMaggio did not give LEAF the rights to print this 1949 card of him.
Furthermore, Joe D would not permit BOWMAN (1949 - 1952) or TOPPS (1951 - 1952) to portray his image on their cards. And of course, they didn't.








Stay tuned for an actual player's signing with the LEAF GUM Co.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

In 1981, I had a nice conversation with Del Ennis (at his Bowling Alley in the Philadelphia area). I told him that as a kid collecting 1949 BOWMAN and 1949 LEAF cards,
I was disappointed not finding a BOWMAN card of him. Del told me that he first gave LEAF the Rights to portray him in their set. Therefore, he didn't sign with BOWMAN.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

He probably always was a hard guy to sign a licensing agreement with. He had a bad temper and was not liked by many. I couldn't imagine someone asking him for permission to be in a set and offer him a few dollars. He would balk at that. My dad ( now age 96) played against him in American Legion ball before the Tigers signed him, and he stated he was "a jerk". He would throw his mitt on the ground and stare at any player who made an error when he was pitching. He was great during the war years when many great players were not on the rosters.

.
"Newhouser actually pitched pretty well in 1942 and 1943, making the All-Star game both years, but the Tigers gave him very little run support, so his W-L record suffered. And this has nothing to do with his cards, but Newhouser was one of the meanest, most disliked players in baseball during his career, with a legendary temper."

..So then we can safely assume someone else selected his 'salutation' for him ?

..



..

..