Authenticity of GU/GW cards

[Pickles]

I have to believe this has been discussed before, but perhaps not recently (I have not found any threads on this)

I am trying to arrange a memorabilia collection (GU/GW bats, jsy, pants) to accompany autographs for various HOFers (mainly NYY) and have been watching the 1998-2014 secondary card "relics" market.

In particular, I do read the words on the back, and while some "guarantees" are very specific (Donruss 2002-2005, shows a picture of the bat or jersey...) some other tend to be what amounts to a denial ("the item listed is not from any specific period or game...) which can lead a cynic to believe that a "Babe Ruth game used bat card" is a card with a picture of Babe Ruth, possibly a MLB used bat, but it might as well be a 2014 game..... Card prices (Miller) do tend to refute this, as the Ruth/Gehrig GU/GW memorabilia has a higher price, suggesting that the majority of the public (the market) believes the authenticity.

It gets harder (as time passes) to get a firm "guarantee" or certificate form the companies, and, in some cases, with a lo of evidence to suggest the articles are not what they appear to be (Thorpe Giants Jersey, 2005-present) Some acknowledgement in the form of lower prices (constant supply, lesser demand) can perhaps be tied to skepticism, but this may be a "reach" as far as "cause-effect" go

So, after a lengthy introduction, can the readers recall details/anecdotes etc of suspect card based GU/GW memorabilia? Any words of caution for novices on the wording (ie tribute, etc) ?

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by Pickles

I have to believe this has been discussed before, but perhaps not recently (I have not found any threads on this)

I am trying to arrange a memorabilia collection (GU/GW bats, jsy, pants) to accompany autographs for various HOFers (mainly NYY) and have been watching the 1998-2014 secondary card "relics" market.

In particular, I do read the words on the back, and while some "guarantees" are very specific (Donruss 2002-2005, shows a picture of the bat or jersey...) some other tend to be what amounts to a denial ("the item listed is not from any specific period or game...) which can lead a cynic to believe that a "Babe Ruth game used bat card" is a card with a picture of Babe Ruth, possibly a MLB used bat, but it might as well be a 2014 game..... Card prices (Miller) do tend to refute this, as the Ruth/Gehrig GU/GW memorabilia has a higher price, suggesting that the majority of the public (the market) believes the authenticity.

It gets harder (as time passes) to get a firm "guarantee" or certificate form the companies, and, in some cases, with a lo of evidence to suggest the articles are not what they appear to be (Thorpe Giants Jersey, 2005-present) Some acknowledgement in the form of lower prices (constant supply, lesser demand) can perhaps be tied to skepticism, but this may be a "reach" as far as "cause-effect" go

So, after a lengthy introduction, can the readers recall details/anecdotes etc of suspect card based GU/GW memorabilia? Any words of caution for novices on the wording (ie tribute, etc) ?

I think there have been a handful of discussions on the subject and the general consensus is that some of it is not real. I personally hope that all of the Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, etc. cards are fakes as the idea of someone cutting up a vintage bat or jersey is a little sad.

[baseball tourist]

I think that you will find that the majority of the members here regard the practice of fragmenting a jersey/bat etc for cards to be reprehensible and a collecting genre avoided by most here. Some my care less about modern GU items being used but cut up a flannel or a vintage bat and most here will get there blood boiling (me included).

[bbcard1]

i am in the minority on this forum, but I believe a broken bat or a torn pair of pants is put to a better use being put in relic cards. Of course, there is no limit to the number of jerseys current day players go through.

[Pickles]

Let's hope that emotions do not triumph over a discussion. To wish that all gu/gw cards are fake is not going to stitch the jsy back up again. The price on Ruth jsy went up an order of magnitude (20x) as a result, so I do not foresee 2000 cards at $2000 apiece in the future.

There are those, myself included, that will find a way to handle the gu/gw, some who will never touch them. I do not write on every thread I see, nor do I expect those who do not care for gu/gw memo to spend a lot of time on this one.

I look at these as sources ofj information, and appreciate factual ones. Not trying to cut up a new jsy here, just wonder about the authenticity of what is out there.

[Bestdj777]

There are a handful of prior threads on it. Again, regardless of my opinion on them, I believe the consensus of the prior threads is that the cards are not always what they say they are.

Here is one of the threads, which includes some comments about the bats not actually being game used:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=131100

[Pickles]

BestJD, thanks for the link. A 2010 thread which basically shows a similar skepticism. I will recap for anyone who reads this further: Prices have not gone up, in fact, some gone down in the past 4 years. Not clear what "game used bat" really means. I suspect the same goes for GW uniform.

On the other hand, you read stories from the Halper collection fakes, Mastro, etc, and it really makes one wonder how safe it is to spend 10's or 100's K$ in a full article (bat, jsy, pants) from the 1920-1930 era, when the authenticity is suspect. Sad in any direction

[Leon]

Since there has been so much fraud in that area, more than almost anywhere except maybe autographs, I would shy away from them. I am with the majority and don't think old, vintage unis, bats and etc.... should be cut up. I am quite sure there has been a lot of the cards that have these splinters and pieces of cloth in them, found to be fraudulent straight from their producers, and not from where they are said to have come from. Yuck all the way around for me.....

[Pickles]

Thanks Leon. An accurate insight. I am slowly getting to that conclusion. The unfortunate part is that, unlike autos, where there are lots of suppliers, thegreat majority honest, a few less than honest, the card relic is limited to a few, purely for profit, companies who (not very accurately) advertise their integrity and commitment to the hobby, and then, perhaps not with full intent, but with lack of diligence and poor quality control, corrupt it even more than the small time auto peddlers.

That brings me to a crossover question on cut autos made into cards. Again, coming from the card manufacturers, these signed autos would give a collector a (false?) sense of security about an auto. I would not expect a high rate of innacuracy (definitely not as much, nor as systemic as the relics element) but, where there is smoke, there is bound to be fire. Any thoughts, history, experiences on this area?

[MooseDog]

Originally Posted by Pickles

That brings me to a crossover question on cut autos made into cards. Again, coming from the card manufacturers, these signed autos would give a collector a (false?) sense of security about an auto. I would not expect a high rate of innacuracy (definitely not as much, nor as systemic as the relics element) but, where there is smoke, there is bound to be fire. Any thoughts, history, experiences on this area?

I can only speak for Topps "on-card" autographs, they require that a representative from Topps be there to witness the signatures. A friend of mine was involved with Topps in this regard and while visiting him during spring training one season I was thrilled to be able to do this for a couple of A's players. In my case they signed 1000 cards each, were allowed to keep 7 for themselves and all the pens (both players used about 5 of them) had to be collected as well.

Maybe someone else can confirm but I have heard that Kevin Keating sold or sells a lot to the card manufacturers for this purpose, maybe that's why his prices are so high.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by Pickles

perhaps not with full intent, but with lack of diligence and poor quality control

I think this is the main issue. I don't think card companies making GU/GW cards have enough of an incentive to pay the costs of what it would take in time and personnel to appropriately investigate the authenticity of the GW/GU items they use. When a GW/GU collector is looking into purchasing a single item, they can do research to determine whether an item is likely legit -- or at least to determine whether there are issues that rule out its legitimacy. And when a purchase is made, they can further research it or even use a TPA. There's no way, except perhaps for a small number of high-profile items, a card company can or will conduct such research on these items. They likely take the word of the person (some honest, some not) selling the item, cut it up, and put it into the cards. At that point, it's extremely hard to detect whether the item was legit. The evidence is pretty much destroyed. (Although there have been instances in which folks have been able to tell from certain portions of jerseys that the jersey was not what it was represented to be.) I'm not in favor of cutting up jerseys or other items for these purposes, but beyond that I don't trust them either.

[Pickles]

I had not thought about the on card, but rather cut autos. Ie SP authentic cuts, Prime cuts, etc, where the name of the game is to buy as low as possible.I would assume, (and accept the disambiguation of the word that comes with it) that on card auto or stickers carry a heavier standard, but, when you read disclaimers like "assured to us by so and so" that they signed the card, it suggests to me a legal copout.
Simple economics, say you are based in Tx, the signer in Ca., Signer will sign 200 cards, an hour's worth, for $2000 (a nice hourly rate, just made it up) I can mail a $50 box of cards (return postage included) and a contract which I ask signer to notarize saying that they did sign, vs having a salesman travel to Cali, and back, where the cost of a day's wages, RT airfare, rental car, meals just about doubles the cost per auto, henceloweringprofit margin. I also doubt schedules can be arranged with 100 signees, scattered around the US, for 1 or 2 employees to monitor.
Buying used autos, for cuts, is not cheaper, hence the vulnerability to fraud. With the possible exception of Ruth, Williams, Mantle, Dimaggio, not too many other deceased players are still signing autos

[Leon]

If I were to collect autographs (I have gotten a few by happenstance) they would only be on legal documents, checks (verified) or with definitive provenance. It's bad enough thinking about altered cards but at least if altered they are still worth something. A fake autograph not so much.

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by icollectDCsports

I think this is the main issue. I don't think card companies making GU/GW cards have enough of an incentive to pay the costs of what it would take in time and personnel to appropriately investigate the authenticity of the GW/GU items they use. When a GW/GU collector is looking into purchasing a single item, they can do research to determine whether an item is likely legit -- or at least to determine whether there are issues that rule out its legitimacy. And when a purchase is made, they can further research it or even use a TPA. There's no way, except perhaps for a small number of high-profile items, a card company can or will conduct such research on these items. They likely take the word of the person (some honest, some not) selling the item, cut it up, and put it into the cards. At that point, it's extremely hard to detect whether the item was legit. The evidence is pretty much destroyed. (Although there have been instances in which folks have been able to tell from certain portions of jerseys that the jersey was not what it was represented to be.) I'm not in favor of cutting up jerseys or other items for these purposes, but beyond that I don't trust them either.

Very sound assessment. I do have one area of skepticism. What would a TPA do? They might tell me thzt thecardis a legitimate issue, but I just do not see how they could determi e the GU/GW factora other than to contact the manufacturer. Might have a better shot with an on card auto/sticker auto (iea guaranteed signed by player on card) but a rejection of one of these modern signs would amount to a declaration of war between the TPA and the carx manufacturer, with economic consequences for both sides. I recall (vaguely, not up to speed on facts) a legal issue between a card co, TPA and end item owner on a Lindberg (Charles) auto. Got ugly, do not know the final outcome, last I heard, the end item owner stil had no resolution

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

all the pens (both players used about 5 of them) had to be collected as well.

What was so special about the pens that they "had to be" retrieved after the signing?

[MooseDog]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

What was so special about the pens that they "had to be" retrieved after the signing?

I don't recall the brand or type of pen, but they were not Sharpies, and my friend who works for Topps didn't explain, and I didn't think to ask at the time. The may have been special as I don't recall any of the signatures I watched smudged in the slightest.

I suspect since the cards they were signing were no different from "regular" Topps issues that perhaps they didn't want the player signing TTM request with them so as to confuse with the Topps insert autos.