T206 "ELITE EIGHT"....but then there were SEVEN

[tedzan]

Approx. 6 years ago, a number of us T206 "nuts" conducted several surveys on this forum regarding certain 150/350 series cards, which resulted in a narrowing
down of these 8 subjects as being quite unique in this series. The majority of the population of these 8 is found with 150 series backs (PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN,
and SWEET CAPORAL). And, very rarely with Brown HINDU (Karger and Mullin have yet to be confirmed with this back). Also the Bob Ewing and Tom Jones cards
are found with the SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory 649 (overprint) back.





I referred to these 8 subjects as the " ELITE EIGHT " because of the difficulty of finding them with the following two 350 series backs.

What differentiates these 8 150/350 subjects from the numerous other 150/350 series cards in the set, is that they were NOT PRINTED with SOVEREIGN 350, or
SWEET CAPORAL 350, or OLD MILL backs. But, quite rarely are found with a PIEDMONT 350 back. Furthermore, 7 of these cards are found with the very tough
El PRINCIPE de GALES back (EPDG). Finding these 7 cards with the EPDG back is as scarce (if not scarcer) as finding them with the PIEDMONT 350 back.

The Schulte card has never been found with an EPDG back.

Now, there exists a single example of a Schulte card with a PIEDMONT 350 back. Recently, scans of this Schulte card have become available. Several of us who
have seen this card agree that it appears to be HAND-CUT. This observation and the fact that an EPDG version of Schulte has never been seen, certainly raises
the question..... Is this card a regular production T206 ?

Until that time when a FACTORY-CUT example of this Schulte with a PIEDMONT 350 back is confirmed and/or a FACTORY-CUT example of this Schulte with an
EPDG back is confirmed....we are left to consider this lone example as...."printer's scrap".


Therefore, at this point in time, the Schulte (front view) T206 should be re-classified as an "150-Only series" subject.


NOTE

The elusive Carl Lundgren (Chicago) card was initially included in this group; but, I removed it. This subject is in a class of its own, by virtue of the fact that it
was printed with only 3 backs. And, as the above 7 subjects, its PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG versions are quite tough to find.






TED Z

[Runscott]

Ted, I completely disagree with you regarding Mullin and EPDG - he's fairly common with that back; either that, or there was a recent horde of them discovered.

[White Borders]

Hi Ted,

The P350 Schulte Front View being printer's scrap sounds like a reasonable explanation as to why only one has ever been confirmed. Are you at liberty to post the scan?

Best Regards,
Craig

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Craig,
The Schulte 350 belonged to Joe P and will be auctioned off by REA... I'm sure Rob can send you a scan...
Be well Brian

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by White Borders

Hi Ted,

The P350 Schulte Front View being printer's scrap sounds like a reasonable explanation as to why only one has ever been confirmed. Are you at liberty to post the scan?

Best Regards,
Craig

Here is the link to the scans......

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=22382

Then locate your cursor on the bar to the right of the large group of T206's. The front/back scans of the Schulte will appear.

Best regards,

TED Z

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here is the link to the scans......

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=22382

Then locate your cursor on the bar to the right of the large group of T206's. The front/back scans of the Schulte will appear.

Best regards,

TED Z

Thanks Ted

The scroll bars did not show for me using Google Chrome - I had to switch to Internet Explorer for them to show up and allow me to access the scan. Here it is for anyone else having problems getting to it (credit scan to REA):

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Ted, I completely disagree with you regarding Mullin and EPDG - he's fairly common with that back; either that, or there was a recent horde of them discovered.

FWIW, I checked PSA pop report for EPDGs (883 total graded for 260 subjects = an average of 3.4 EPDGs per subject)

The # graded for the following selected subjects are:

Dahlen (Bos): 2
Ewing: 2
Ganley: 1
T. Jones: 2
Karger: 3
Lindaman: 7
Mullin (Horiz): 4
Lundgren (Chi): 8


Best Regards and Happy Collecting,
Craig

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by White Borders

FWIW, I checked PSA pop report for EPDGs (883 total graded for 260 subjects = an average of 3.4 EPDGs per subject)

The # graded for the following selected subjects are:

Dahlen (Bos): 2
Ewing: 2
Ganley: 1
T. Jones: 2
Karger: 3
Lindaman: 7
Mullin (Horiz): 4
Lundgren (Chi): 8


Best Regards and Happy Collecting,
Craig

Thanks Craig. Perhaps it's not a popular card to get slabbed by PSA, but I sold one a couple of months ago and saw two more in other auctions. Three in 2-3 months.

I'm still curious how PSA and SGC pop reports relate to actual physical numbers of cards in existence. I have asked this question numerous times here, but have gotten no responses. Scot Reader posted that he came up with his "T206 hardest cards" list based, in part, on PSA pop reports, but I haven't gotten a response to my question as to how he actually used them to come up with numbers. If you really believe PSA pop reports, then (again, not to bore anyone, but I'm repeating myself for about the fourth time this year), then you have to believe that many of the tough variations are no tougher than their counterparts.

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by Runscott

... I'm still curious how PSA and SGC pop reports relate to actual physical numbers of cards in existence...

A week or so ago Zach started a thread on this same topic, also without getting much anywhere "TRUE" population of a card

I've been pondering if there is a statistical means (pun intended!) of coming up with a population estimate; perhaps some modification to a biological mark-recapture method METHODS OF ESTIMATING POPULATION SIZE -- MARK-RECAPTURE

Best Regards,
Craig

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by White Borders

A week or so ago Zach started a thread on this same topic, also without getting much anywhere

Yes, I know. I avoided getting involved in that one - there were a lot of great thoughts, but they weren't jelling into a useful formula. We could use input from someone like Scot Reader who is respected in the hobby, and has already gone through this thought process.

Also, (and I'm repeating myself here...again) I asked Jim Riviera if the info on T206Resource.com could be used to come up with multipliers to help us determine how many of each card, total, were produced, and he said, "Yes". Yet, that also hasn't gone anywhere.

No offense to any of these guys, but I'd love to see them answer some questions here and participate in discussions, rather than wait until they have a research paper published on their site (T206Resource.com), and then sending us a link. Tim, Jim - get involved in the discussions here, please.

[71buc]

I have little knowledge to contribute to this discussion. Perhaps I am mistaken, are you saying that the Dahlen was not printed with sovereign 350 back? I sold this Dahlen sov 350 last year. When it comes to T206 my ignorance is limitless so forgive me if it is showing now. If the Brooklyn Dahlen was printed with a sovereign 350 back perhaps there is a Boston one as well?http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141181

Originally Posted by tedzan

Approx. 6 years ago, a number of us T206 "nuts" conducted several surveys on this forum regarding certain 150/350 series cards, which resulted in a narrowing
down of these 8 subjects as being quite unique in this series. The majority of the population of these 8 is found with 150 series backs (PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN,
and SWEET CAPORAL). And, very rarely with Brown HINDU (Karger and Mullin have yet to be confirmed with this back). Also the Bob Ewing and Tom Jones cards
are found with the SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory 649 (overprint) back.





I referred to these 8 subjects as the " ELITE EIGHT " because of the difficulty of finding them with the following two 350 series backs.

What differentiates these 8 150/350 subjects from the numerous other 150/350 series cards in the set, is that they were NOT PRINTED with SOVEREIGN 350, or
SWEET CAPORAL 350, or OLD MILL backs. But, quite rarely are found with a PIEDMONT 350 back. Furthermore, 7 of these cards are found with the very tough
El PRINCIPE de GALES back (EPDG). Finding these 7 cards with the EPDG back is as scarce (if not scarcer) as finding them with the PIEDMONT 350 back.

The Schulte card has never been found with an EPDG back.

Now, there exists a single example of a Schulte card with a PIEDMONT 350 back. Recently, scans of this Schulte card have become available. Several of us who
have seen this card agree that it appears to be HAND-CUT. This observation and the fact that an EPDG version of Schulte has never been seen, certainly raises
the question..... Is this card a regular production T206 ?

Until that time when a FACTORY-CUT example of this Schulte with a PIEDMONT 350 back is confirmed and/or a FACTORY-CUT example of this Schulte with an
EPDG back is confirmed....we are left to consider this lone example as...."printer's scrap".


Therefore, at this point in time, the Schulte (front view) T206 should be re-classified as an "150-Only series" subject.


NOTE

The elusive Carl Lundgren (Chicago) card was initially included in this group; but, I removed it. This subject is in a class of its own, by virtue of the fact that it
was printed with only 3 backs. And, as the above 7 subjects, its PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG versions are quite tough to find.






TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by 71buc

I have little knowledge to contribute to this discussion. Perhaps I am mistaken, are you saying that the Dahlen was not printed with sovereign 350 back? I sold this Dahlen sov 350 last year. When it comes to T206 my ignorance is limitless so forgive me if it is showing now. If the Brooklyn Dahlen was printed with a sovereign 350 back perhaps there is a Boston one as well?http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141181

Mike - After the first EPDG and Piedmont 350 printings Dahlen's team designation was changed to Brooklyn. So when the Sovereign 350's were printed this changed had taken place. So only the Brooklyn variation will be found with the Sovereign 350 back.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by 71buc

I have little knowledge to contribute to this discussion. Perhaps I am mistaken, are you saying that the Dahlen was not printed with sovereign 350 back? I sold this Dahlen sov 350 last year. When it comes to T206 my ignorance is limitless so forgive me if it is showing now. If the Brooklyn Dahlen was printed with a sovereign 350 back perhaps there is a Boston one as well?http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141181

Mike

The Dahlen in this discussion is his Boston Doves card that was issued in the 1st series. And, this card was NOT printed with a SOVEREIGN 350 back.

The fact that subsequently the Dahlen (Brooklyn) was printed with a SOVEREIGN 350 back does not translate in any way to Dahlen's 1st series card.


TED Z

[atx840]

Johnny has a raw Ewing EPDG.