Top T206 Wagner's in existence (according to Legendary)

[glchen]

Legendary has started the private sale of the Dreier collection. Link

One thing that I found interesting was the listing and ownership of the top T205 Wagner's right now. Copying their blurb:

The Dreier Collection’s Wagner ranks firmly in the Top 10 of the 50 to 100 such Holy Grails in existence. Thus, it belongs to that supremely prestigious Million-Dollar Card Club that began with the famous seven-figure sale of the so-called Gretzky Wagner back in 2000.

More definitively, if we trace the hierarchy of all prominent, documented T206 Wagners according to their grades and lineage, we believe the Dreier Wagner unquestionably positions itself as high as Number 8:

1. PSA NM-MT 8: Bill Mastro → Jim Copeland → Wayne Gretzky/Bruce McNall → Mike Gidwitz/Rob Lifson → Brian Siegel → Private Investor

(I believe the private invester is the owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks, Ken Kendrick according to an article in PSA's SMR magazine.)

2. Borderline NM (and oversized): Lew Lipset → Mastro → Barry Halper → Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown

3. EX+ or slightly better (with strong corners): Richard Gelman → Corey Shanus

4. PSA EX 5: Leland’s → Mastro → Scott Ireland

5. PSA EX 5 MC (“jumbo”-sized): Mastro → John Rogers

6. EX: Mastro → Dr. Robert Goode → Mark Macrae

7. EX: Larry Fritsch

8. VG-EX 4: The Dreier Collection

9. EX appearance (but adhered to an album page): Jefferson Burdick → Metropolitan Museum of Art.

---

What do people think of this? Looks correct?

[barrysloate]

What happened to collector privacy? Past owners are typically cited with regards to an object's provenance, but some of those current owners might not want their name out there.

[bbcard1]

Barry, as much as it may be a negative thing, privacy does not exist in the internet age. We have met Big Brother and we are it.

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

What happened to collector privacy? Past owners are typically cited with regards to an object's provenance, but some of those current owners might not want their name out there.

I'm pretty sure your statemnt was brought up when Mastro had their live auction with the Jumbo Wagner in 2008. They had an almost identical write up.

If I remember correctly, they did that without any sort of consent from the collectors.

Tony

[ullmandds]

IT seems kinda odd to me that 3 of the top 8-10 or so t206 wagners are described as "jumbo"...or oversized?

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

IT seems kinda odd to me that 3 of the top 8-10 or so t206 wagners are described as "jumbo"...or oversized?

And at least one has been described by some at "trimboed"....

[barrysloate]

The internet age has nothing to do with privacy in this regard. These owners did not have that information out there. Legendary knew who they were and posted their names. I spoke to one of the people on that list after it was first revealed and he was not happy. He in turn spoke to a second member on it who was equally unhappy. The names of the owners of the top Wagners were never on the internet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The list would have been just as informative if the current owner was listed as a private collector. If Doug did not have consent, or if the ownership was not common knowledge, he may have overstepped.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The list would have been just as informative if the current owner was listed as a private collector. If Doug did not have consent, or if the ownership was not common knowledge, he may have overstepped.

Exactly the way it should have been done.

[Shoeless Moe]

I thought Charlie Sheen owned one of those at one time?

[calvindog]

That list is not accurate, I can assure you.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That list is not accurate, I can assure you.

Calvin dog is right! How arrogantly presumptuous of Legendary to think they know of even half the Wags out there. Not one foriegn owner...Ludicrous!! I know of at least 2 in U.K. and at least 1 in the middle east. What a stupid thing for them to publish anyway. I also agree that current ownership should be private, unless the owner wants it public. Aloha, Dave. Deh Suk!

[Wite3]

Not even close...just stop at the first listing...that PSA card is trimmed...period...there are other nicer Wagners out there as well...Legendary is just making it up as they go...

Joshua

[wonkaticket]

Huh they didn't even mention the 6 NM cards I own or these guys....what gives?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xe1tLBAFJ4

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

I thought Charlie Sheen owned one of those at one time?

He did. It's now known as The Fleiss Wagner.

[drc]

The list should have been more complete, with addresses and times when away from home.

No, seriously, I'm taking that list to bars and telling women, "Yeah, that's me. Private investor." And she will say, "But you just said your name is Steve McQueen."

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

IT seems kinda odd to me that 3 of the top 8-10 or so t206 wagners are described as "jumbo"...or oversized?

Peter - it actually makes sense. I doubt any Wagner cards actually made it into production. If there are only 50-100 in existence, how many were printed? Did they print a few dozen sheets, release them into production (put them in packs), then send the representative to broker a deal with Wagner? I doubt it. If they were going to do that, they would have printed many more cards first. I think they knew selling Wagner was going to be tough (for reasons unknown to us), so they never released those sheets. Most of them, if not all, were hand-cut, resulting in all the jumbos (and former jumbos) that we see now, and they ended up in the hands of employees and friends. In other words, they had the production process ready in case he said 'yes', but he didn't.

[dallen]

This list modified for the Dreier Wagner was published in the catalog and on the Internet a few years ago when the PSA EX 5 (MC) example was sold. As a matter of fact it is still there if you view the write-up on the history search. I was not privy to any complaint at that time as they were not directed to me.

We defined this as a list of "all prominent, documented T206 Wagners according to their grades and lineage". I believe based on that definition this list is accurate.

I am happy to field any comments from any owners who did not want their names published in this manner.

Sincerely,
Doug

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Peter - it actually makes sense. I doubt any Wagner cards actually made it into production. If there are only 50-100 in existence, how many were printed? Did they print a few dozen sheets, release them into production (put them in packs), then send the representative to broker a deal with Wagner? I doubt it. If they were going to do that, they would have printed many more cards first. I think they knew selling Wagner was going to be tough (for reasons unknown to us), so they never released those sheets. Most of them, if not all, were hand-cut, resulting in all the jumbos (and former jumbos) that we see now, and they ended up in the hands of employees and friends. In other words, they had the production process ready in case he said 'yes', but he didn't.

Scott I disagree with you here, Wagner and Plank in the Sweet Cap most likely made it into production in some shape or form.

The fact that so few survived is not a good indication of did something go into production or not. We have tons of cards that are way more obscure and in less numbers than the T206 Wagner that we know were put into production and distribution J=K Candy Cards, T208 Fireside, E221, T215 Pirate the list could go on and on.

The Jumbo oversized is combo of two things IMO. One more of these cards have been tucked away in long time older collections and hacked less. Two back in the day oversized T206’s were common place I had finds of thousands of cards and held and bought many more. Back in those days raw super sized cards with big borders top and bottom sometimes both were very common.



In fact old school collectors use to trim the bottoms of these cards to fit them in the early sheets ughh like my old Magie that I sold to a board member.



Why do you not see many of these “jumbo” T206’s today? Where did many of these super sized T206’s go you ask?Just check your PSA set reg for the many PSA8’s and 9’s sad but true big bordered T206’s are like the white rhino of the card world along with others.

Just my two cents but what do I know I’m a hack and I don’t even have a website.

Cheers,

John

P.S. I see nothing wrong with what Legendary did in giving provenance and background calling out a significant auction of a special card. It happens in the art world all the time. They did a very good job of giving good info for the potential buyers while being respectful of current owners IMO.

[wonkaticket]

Doug,

As a collector who is two cards away from finishing this set I long for the day where I can be angry with you for talking about my Wagner card. Let’s set a date for that call now how does your schedule look?

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

John- it's up to the current owners to decide whether or not they want their name out there, and the auction house should have contacted them first to get their permission. As I said, I spoke in length to one of those collectors, and he said he was not contacted and wasn't happy to see his name in print.

Provenance is unquestionably a very important part of any collecting field, and any former owner is fair game. I suppose once you sell your Wagner you are also selling your rights to privacy. But current owners do have the right to remain anonymous if that is their choice.

And I don't have a website either, but I hope there will be many more, because the more websites, the more people are fighting on Net54.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And I don't have a website either, but I hope there will be many more, because the more websites, the more people are fighting on Net54.

I agree Barry, so here ya go-

"Everybody" stop fighting, NOW!!! ..there, that should do it.


.
.

[barrysloate]

That's more like it Leon.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Just my two cents but what do I know I’m a hack and I don’t even have a website.

Cheers,

John

Could be. The fact is, though - 3 out of the 'top 10' were hacked, AND the Wagner is scarce. The fact that there are other jumbos out there doesn't change my opinion on this. To me, the math doesn't add up for the theory that production began and then was halted due to Wagner complaining. To me, we would see more cards - also, people were more likely to save cards of guys like Wagner.

I'm also a hack - much moreso than you, and I have no idea what your website comment has to do with anything.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And I don't have a website either, but I hope there will be many more, because the more websites, the more people are fighting on Net54.

There should only be one website for everything - then the owners can be god and anyone who dissents will be smited.

Scott <=== already smited.

[glynparson]

some of the current owners not correct. Do they not know the current owner or did they not wish to give certain collectors the credit of owning a high quality Wagner.

[GaryPassamonte]

To play devil's advocate on this issue. Since many of the Wagner's listed were transacted privately, the only way the seller or the buyer would be revealed is if they told someone else who, in turn, repeated what they were told. I think very few transactions are truly private. It seems that many on this board know some of the owners of the higher grade Wagner's. Now how did they find out? Doug Allen is just another messenger in a long chain.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Could be. The fact is, though - 3 out of the 'top 10' were hacked, AND the Wagner is scarce. The fact that there are other jumbos out there doesn't change my opinion on this. To me, the math doesn't add up for the theory that production began and then was halted due to Wagner complaining. To me, we would see more cards - also, people were more likely to save cards of guys like Wagner.

I'm also a hack - much moreso than you, and I have no idea what your website comment has to do with anything.

Scott,

Curious to know what information you can share which of the top 10 cards above have been hacked besides the obvious P150 PSA 8. I would love to hear this.

I still disagree with you’re reasoning I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around it….

You basically say that because you feel many Wagner’s are trimmed and there are 50 or cards in your opinion that the card never made it into production. Using that same set of standards and applying it to other T206 rarities then would you say the following were also never issued?

Brown Lenox 15-20+ examples known with trimmed examples.

Broad Leaf 460 40-50+ Examples known with trimmed examples.

Were these cards also not issued to the public? They fit your criteria 50 or so examples or very few left and trimmed ones are present. I’m just not following you and that’s ok.

John

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Scott,

Curious to know what information you can share which of the top 10 cards above have been hacked besides the obvious P150 PSA 8. I would love to hear this.

Sorry, 'Jumbo', not necessarily trimmed. No new information - just assuming Peter's comment was correct. Peter, if you were lying to us, I'm crawling through my computer screen and swatting you.

I still disagree with you’re reasoning I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around it….

You basically say that because you feel many Wagner’s are trimmed and there are 50 or cards in your opinion that the card never made it into production. Using that same set of standards and applying it to other T206 rarities then would you say the following were also never issued?

Brown Lenox 15-20+ examples known with trimmed examples.

Broad Leaf 460 40-50+ Examples known with trimmed examples.

Were these cards also not issued to the public? They fit your criteria 50 or so examples or very few left and trimmed ones are present. I’m just not following you and that’s ok.

John

John, I think your logic regarding my logic is faulty An apple is round and an orange is round. That doesn't make an apple an orange.

Besides, I'm just guessing. I haven't seen any theories that made more sense, so I've submitted my own. If it appears on your new website, please acknowledge me.

The BL 460 and brown Lennox are not all involving a single player. My thinking is that the backs on the Wagner are somewhat irrelevant in trying to determine how/why so few were produced - the 'Wagner producers' chose backs that they were printing at the time for other cards in the series, and printed them on the backs of the sheets containing Wagners.

Another reason my theory is probably wrong is that you would expect to see some scrap Wagners as well, and I don't think any exist - please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm just tossing this out there for discussion. It's probably wrong.

I don't appreciate your mentioning the rarity of BL 460's - I know it's just a cruel jab at me, realizing I'm still in mourning over my two losses seven years ago

[glchen]

And the Dreier Wagner is sold. That was fast.

[sb1]

"I don't appreciate your mentioning the rarity of BL 460's - I know it's just a cruel jab at me, realizing I'm still in mourning over my two losses seven years ago "

They went to a good home, I still have the best one, at least in my eyes, SGC saw differently.

[Epps]

Does anyone know what it sold for? Thanks!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sb1

"I don't appreciate your mentioning the rarity of BL 460's - I know it's just a cruel jab at me, realizing I'm still in mourning over my two losses seven years ago "

They went to a good home, I still have the best one, at least in my eyes, SGC saw differently.

I thought that one (O'Leary) went to someone else?

[sb1]

I'll have to check to see which one I kept. I got one graded and it came back a 60, I kept the other "nicer" one which was still raw and it came back a 50 a few months later. go figure!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sb1

I'll have to check to see which one I kept. I got one graded and it came back a 60, I kept the other "nicer" one which was still raw and it came back a 50 a few months later. go figure!

O'Leary was in a 60, I didn't send Reulbach in because of the big horizontal crease at the bottom.

[snider4prez]

Hey I was the one who got two of those $250 bins but got them stolen away from fellow Net 54ers that wanted to make sure they did the right thing for the seller Make lots of money off them

I think the disclosure of the past owners of T206 Wagners should be private information but thats just me. I do have to give it up to Doug for coming on here and stnading up for what his company writes. No responses from the "upset" people yet? I am sure they would no be upset with Doug if he was able to help them sell there Wagner for a record selling price!!! I would choose Legendary to sell my collection and I know the Dreiers feel the same. But hay what do I know just another drunk armpit collector who can't spell.

Trevor Hocking

[fkw]

Ive been thinking of asking this for a while, this is as good a time as any...


does anyone have the October 12, 1912 issue of THE SPORTING NEWS ???

in that issues it is said to recount the story of a Pittsburgh sportswriter who tried to get permission from Wagner, only to be rejected by Honus as the article states, who "did not care to have his picture in a package of cigarettes."

I would like to see a more accurate quote from that issue if anyone has it

[Abravefan11]

Frank - Email me and I'll send you the pdf of the paper.

[wonkaticket]

Tim, fire it to me too while you are at it f you can. Thanks.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by snider4prez

Hey I was the one who got two of those $250 bins but got them stolen away from fellow Net 54ers that wanted to make sure they did the right thing for the seller Make lots of money off them

I think the disclosure of the past owners of T206 Wagners should be private information but thats just me. I do have to give it up to Doug for coming on here and stnading up for what his company writes. No responses from the "upset" people yet? I am sure they would no be upset with Doug if he was able to help them sell there Wagner for a record selling price!!! I would choose Legendary to sell my collection and I know the Dreiers feel the same. But hay what do I know just another drunk armpit collector who can't spell.

Trevor Hocking

That was sad indeed. Is James still around? I would love to tell the true story of what happened that fateful day, but I have never wanted to risk offending him. You know me, and how I hate to offend anyone.

Could you please post scans of your drunk armpit collection? By the way, I am drinking as I type, and it's much better than H2O.

Your post reminds me of how much collectors have aligned themselves against or for, various players in our hobby, be it auction houses, board members, websites, etc. I can promise you there is someone out there (many, actually) who are just dying to burst forth with their opinions of Legendary, as opposed to their own favorite auction house. Now you will personally be disliked by those people due to your comments - yes, even hated in some instances. Thank God for alcohol.

Personally, I love all auction houses - almost every one of them has done something at one time or another that pissed me off, or something that has 'wowed' me in a good way, so I have to either hate them all the same or love them all the same. Since I really believe that they are the best source for building my collection (and financing it a little as well), 'LOVE' might as well be my attitude. Doug has definitely done right by me, so I guess I feel a little man-love. My girlfriend is coming over tonight and I will have to really take care of things in order to make up for that last comment.

I also enjoy any chance I can derail a thread by plugging the Burkes.

Advertisement over - back to your regularly scheduled program.

[e107collector]

I wonder if the same collector bought the Wagner and the Joseph Hall Set?

Tony