For those who fear the demise of the collectibles market may be near...

[BlueDevil89]

For those who fear the demise of the collectibles market may be near...take heart! - No economic worries here!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100222/...an_first_issue

[JP]

Neither seller or buyer was known....sounds like the same old crap that dealers do all of the time to tout their own cards and drive up the price. I don't believe a word of it.

[ChiefBenderForever]

It might be true, that is the Wagner of the comic world, the drummer for system of a down was shocked when he got his for 317,000 last year and was really happy about it thinking it would go much higher, so if two people really went after this one wouldn't take much to get to a cool mill. Of course I'm sure shilling goes on in the comic world as well...........

[barrysloate]

Assuming it's true, and it's certainly possible it is, it only proves that the high end of the market is alive and well. That comic book would be among the handful of best in the world.

Most collectors would be more concerned how the $100-1000 end of the market is doing. That's the range where a great many transactions take place.

[Section103]

I spent some time last night scratching my head about one simple thing - the comic's encased just like any other PSA/Beckett/SGC graded card. Now, I understand that this is the "holy grail" [/over-used cliche] of comic books and its not intended to be read or handled, but there's a fundamental flaw that I just cant get myself past - and it's that you cant READ the BOOK. I know plenty of people bemoan not being able to "touch" a graded card, but dang, at least you can still see essentially every aspect of the card. I know I need to get over it, but it just sticks in my craw.......

[mark evans]

I agree with Barry. Even if the sale is true, I don't think it says much about the strength of the collectibles market across the board.

Mark

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Section103

I spent some time last night scratching my head about one simple thing - the comic's encased just like any other PSA/Beckett/SGC graded card. Now, I understand that this is the "holy grail" [/over-used cliche] of comic books and its not intended to be read or handled, but there's a fundamental flaw that I just cant get myself past - and it's that you cant READ the BOOK. I know plenty of people bemoan not being able to "touch" a graded card, but dang, at least you can still see essentially every aspect of the card. I know I need to get over it, but it just sticks in my craw.......

yeah - it does seem strange to encase a book -
BUT
there are reprints available if what you want to do is read the comic.

this is a collectible / investment..... and is being certified in a certain condition and being preserved in that case.

If I was a collector - I would have no problem with grading for my key comics.

And, if I was a buyer - I would be looking for graded examples.

[teetwoohsix]

I think Rich V. brought up a good point,in post #5, about the comic book being slabbed.I know nothing about comic book slabbing,but he made a good point-with a slabbed card,you can still see everything about the card.With the comic,you see the front and back cover,so essentially you are putting 100% faith in the slabbers reputation-you have NO WAY to really know if any of the pages inside have been restored,altered,etc.

Don't get me wrong-I understand the reason for slabbing it-but unless you were the one who submitted it for grading,you would have to wonder about this,wouldn't you?

And we all know that no TPG is flawless............

[terjung]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I think Rich V. brought up a good point,in post #5, about the comic book being slabbed.I know nothing about comic book slabbing,but he made a good point-with a slabbed card,you can still see everything about the card.With the comic,you see the front and back cover,so essentially you are putting 100% faith in the slabbers reputation-you have NO WAY to really know if any of the pages inside have been restored,altered,etc.

Don't get me wrong-I understand the reason for slabbing it-but unless you were the one who submitted it for grading,you would have to wonder about this,wouldn't you?

And we all know that no TPG is flawless............

Interesting point. I always thought it was a bit weird to have a book slabbed in that you couldn't see the interior pages, but only thought about the lack of being able to read it and hadn't considered the TPG portion of it. With our beloved baseball cards, we often judge and opine as to whether something is accurately graded and sometimes even have "guess the grade" threads. With comics, you truly can't do much judging of the interior pages - except possibly count the number of pages from the edge (not sure how possible that even is). I wonder how stringently the interior pages are graded. For example, we know that SGC is tough on paper loss on the cards. I wonder how printing dots or registration issues (for example) may affect the grading if it were only present on the interior pages. Once it is slabbed, you may not even know the reason for the downgrade. A pristine front and back cover and binding could potentially deserve a much lower grade based on interior pages and you'd never know it unless it were specifically delineated or cracked out of its slab.

All that to say this... I think it may be tougher to "buy the comic not the slab" in that world due to this issue. Perhaps I am wrong though and will be enlightened.

[teetwoohsix]

Exactly Brian-I would be pretty leary about investing 1 mil. into a comic book already slabbed--unless maybe the original owner was the seller,and could vouch for the condition on the inside--no,wait-he's trying to make a mil.......

I'll stick to the cards...............

[JamesGallo]

Originally Posted by terjung

Interesting point. I always thought it was a bit weird to have a book slabbed in that you couldn't see the interior pages, but only thought about the lack of being able to read it and hadn't considered the TPG portion of it. With our beloved baseball cards, we often judge and opine as to whether something is accurately graded and sometimes even have "guess the grade" threads. With comics, you truly can't do much judging of the interior pages - except possibly count the number of pages from the edge (not sure how possible that even is). I wonder how stringently the interior pages are graded. For example, we know that SGC is tough on paper loss on the cards. I wonder how printing dots or registration issues (for example) may affect the grading if it were only present on the interior pages. Once it is slabbed, you may not even know the reason for the downgrade. A pristine front and back cover and binding could potentially deserve a much lower grade based on interior pages and you'd never know it unless it were specifically delineated or cracked out of its slab.

All that to say this... I think it may be tougher to "buy the comic not the slab" in that world due to this issue. Perhaps I am wrong though and will be enlightened.

I have collected comics for 20+ years and was doing it before SGC was even around so I think I am qualified to comment on this thread.

The Action #1 was sold by Steven Fishler's company Metropolis Comics. Fishler is considered the biggest comic dealer in the world. He has a huge inventory and he personally has a large movie poster, original art and comic collection. I have dealt with him in the past and consider him a straight shooter. This issue was one of the best in the world and as we all know the best brings is way more money then anything else. Just compare prices on high grade Wagner's, has any other one gotten even close to half of the trimmed card?

The other important aspect is this book is unrestored. That makes a HUGE difference in a golden age (1930's-40's) comic.

This book much like it's character has become iconic. The cover has been ripped off many times and is widely reprinted. I would say it compares somewhat to Babe Ruth, but is rarer then any Ruth card and likely has higher demand since there is only one 1st issue and there are several early/rookie Ruth cards (depending on your point of view).

As for the pages, a comic is looked at differently then a card. The pages are graded on quality from white-brittle. As noted later in this thread CGC will note any tears, writing or missing pages on the label. As for as printing registry that is not someone I have seen ever talked about for the pages. On the covers there are some people that won't care about a book that has a slight diamond cut, others like myself hate the diamond cut. Regardless CGC does not deduct for this (which I think is BS).

People like slabs on comics even most so to protect the book. As for reading it, most extremely popular key books have been reprinted many times, and lower grade copies are mostly available. That being said I am not sure too many people are worried about reading their high grade Action 1 as what would be the point since any tiny stress could bring the grade down a full point and greatly impact the price.

So I have no doubt that the Action #1 sold, and if this isn't enough information then I would say you can't prove any sale unless you see it happen or have a email from both parties saying it happened.

As there are plenty of opinions on Heritage I will not comment on the sale of the Detective #27.

James G

[BlueDevil89]

A year later, a Spiderman goes for $1,100,000...

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/movies....or-1.1-million

[Jim VB]

nm

[ephus]

Originally Posted by JamesGallo

I have collected comics for 20+ years and was doing it before SGC was even around so I think I am qualified to comment on this thread.

The Action #1 was sold by Steven Fishler's company Metropolis Comics. Fishler is considered the biggest comic dealer in the world. He has a huge inventory and he personally has a large movie poster, original art and comic collection. I have dealt with him in the past and consider him a straight shooter. This issue was one of the best in the world and as we all know the best brings is way more money then anything else. Just compare prices on high grade Wagner's, has any other one gotten even close to half of the trimmed card?

The other important aspect is this book is unrestored. That makes a HUGE difference in a golden age (1930's-40's) comic.
This book much like it's character has become iconic. The cover has been ripped off many times and is widely reprinted. I would say it compares somewhat to Babe Ruth, but is rarer then any Ruth card and likely has higher demand since there is only one 1st issue and there are several early/rookie Ruth cards (depending on your point of view)
As for the pages, a comic is looked at differently then a card. The pages are graded on quality from white-brittle. As noted later in this thread CGC will note any tears, writing or missing pages on the label. As for as printing registry that is not someone I have seen ever talked about for the pages. On the covers there are some people that won't care about a book that has a slight diamond cut, others like myself hate the diamond cut. Regardless CGC does not deduct for this (which I think is BS).

People like slabs on comics even most so to protect the book. As for reading it, most extremely popular key books have been reprinted many times, and lower grade copies are mostly available. That being said I am not sure too many people are worried about reading their high grade Action 1 as what would be the point since any tiny stress could bring the grade down a full point and greatly impact the price.

So I have no doubt that the Action #1 sold, and if this isn't enough information then I would say you can't prove any sale unless you see it happen or have a email from both parties saying it happened.

As there are plenty of opinions on Heritage I will not comment on the sale of the Detective #27.

James G

Very thorough and correct explanation James G. From the first quote the poster said something about how there are guess grade threads for cards. There are guess the grade threads for comics on the cgc boards, but the true guessing of the condition of the inside pages is not necessarily in flux because anyone at anytime can call CGC and ask for graders notes on the cert. # of a particular comic. You talk to an actual grader and they explain the features and flaws of the interior and/or exterior that made the grade a certain number. These notes can be very detailed and lengthy. This practice is something that the graded comic world has done right and the grading card world could learn from. How many times have you scratched your head at a grade and a simple 2 minute conversation/explanation with a person who actually graded that card would answer most every question. Just an observation and my two cents.

[ls7plus]

I don't know much about the comic book market (I had all the original marvel comics, including the first Incredible Hulk, first Spiderman, first Fantastic Four, etc., when I was a kid, until my dad threw them all out one day. He thought: (1) they were too violent; and (2) I was too impressionable at the time--thanks, Dad!). However, I do study whatever I can get my hands on regarding the history of the coin collecting market, and it is interesting to note that there have been at least 32 individual coin sales for $1million plus that have been reported since May, 1996 through 2008 (See "100 Greatest Coins," 3rd edition, p 124, by well-known coin dealer Jeff Garrett). Other reputable sources in coins include anything written by Q. David Bowers.

PEOPLE LIKE TO COLLECT THINGS THAT ARE RARE AND SIGNIFICANT! The actual, AVAILABLE supply of desireable items, not the number still in existence, determines price--as rare items disappear into private collections for many years--sometimes decades, the actually available supply can be vastly reduced. As that occurs, and/or more collectors are drawn to the item over time, the supply vs demand equation can change quite DRAMATICALLY with regard to an item that is already rare to begin with. When that happens, explosive growth in price is the result!

For the guys buying collectibles at the price levels being discussed here, the amount they're paying is often like pocket change for us. Part of the attraction of owning an example of the rarest and best in any field of collecting is that it is a part of the collector's legacy. Just as THE Wagner has changed hands rather often since it passed through Gretsky and McNall's hands, the so-called trophy coins worth well into six and seven figures experience the same phenomenon, and for the same reasons.

I'm frankly a little stunned that collectors like us would question the fact that collectibles can achieve substantial appreciation over time--we see and appreciate the inherent, though somewhat intangible value they possess, and we strive to obtain the best examples of our own personal quests that our finances will permit. Great art continues to dwarf the prices even the most expensive coins bring (although the book I referred to estimates a unique 1849 Double Eagle--$20 gold piece, with the only known example currently held by the Smithsonian--to be worth a cool $20 million). Check the value in a reliable guide to see what a 1910 T210 Joe Jackson was worth in 1995, then check reported recent sales. Similarly, the very first sale of the 1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth minor league schedule card I am aware of was in the Copeland auction in 1989 (?), when it went for $6,000. Try and get your hands on one now for less than $200K!

Maybe we're skeptical because there is a very human tendency to view life as being just what it is at any given moment, and to think that's what it always will be. The value of a collectible is what it is, and that's all it will be (at least until I get around to buying the example I want, then its ok to go up in value). That is a static view of life, when in reality, life is a dynamic sea of change at all times, all around us. Q. David Bowers did a study based on articles appearing in "The Numismatist," a leading coin publication going back, I believe, to the late 1800's. He noted that many times throughout the history of coin collecting (which really became an organized hobby in the 1850's), people felt that coin values had peaked, when time and hindsight showed that that had not even remotely been the case. Ask Barry about the Honus Wagner he sold in the eighties for $16,000!

Wow, what a windbag I've been in this post--probably got ten bucks, rather than my "two cents" in. There will be a thirty minute quiz on this stuff tomorrow, guys!

Larry

[olsport]

When I think about what a HUGE waste of money that is, it kills me!! Anyone with spare change to buy a million dollar comic or Wagner, or whatever seems like an utter waste of money. I wonder what there reasoning would be? I am serious when I say this, "What about all the people starving in the US, or without the basics, or dying without the money for an operation, or anything anyone with an ounce of decency can think of. I just know that I would rather spend that kind of mega spare change on something to help others in need, and feel much better, than having the worlds most expensive comic or card sitting around in a climate controlled vault. I know, people are selfish, but I guarantee after the newness of that million dollar comic wears off they will be on to the next million dollar purchase, and on, and on. Or mabye they bought it for an investment, as we all know, the best of the best usually continues to have a good increase every couple of years. What goes on in these multimillionaires heads??

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by olsport

When I think about what a HUGE waste of money that is, it kills me!! Anyone with spare change to buy a million dollar comic or Wagner, or whatever seems like an utter waste of money. I wonder what there reasoning would be? I am serious when I say this, "What about all the people starving in the US, or without the basics, or dying without the money for an operation, or anything anyone with an ounce of decency can think of. I just know that I would rather spend that kind of mega spare change on something to help others in need, and feel much better, than having the worlds most expensive comic or card sitting around in a climate controlled vault. I know, people are selfish, but I guarantee after the newness of that million dollar comic wears off they will be on to the next million dollar purchase, and on, and on. Or mabye they bought it for an investment, as we all know, the best of the best usually continues to have a good increase every couple of years. What goes on in these multimillionaires heads??

Paul,

With those socialistic thoughts running through your head, how do you justify collecting anything?

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by olsport

I just know that I would rather spend that kind of mega spare change on something to help others in need, and feel much better, than having the worlds most expensive comic or card sitting around in a climate controlled vault.

The $1M did not just disappear. It went from the buyer to the seller. Now the seller has the opportunity to do something good with the money.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by olsport

When I think about what a HUGE waste of money that is, it kills me!! Anyone with spare change to buy a million dollar comic or Wagner, or whatever seems like an utter waste of money. I wonder what there reasoning would be? I am serious when I say this, "What about all the people starving in the US, or without the basics, or dying without the money for an operation, or anything anyone with an ounce of decency can think of. I just know that I would rather spend that kind of mega spare change on something to help others in need, and feel much better, than having the worlds most expensive comic or card sitting around in a climate controlled vault. I know, people are selfish, but I guarantee after the newness of that million dollar comic wears off they will be on to the next million dollar purchase, and on, and on. Or mabye they bought it for an investment, as we all know, the best of the best usually continues to have a good increase every couple of years. What goes on in these multimillionaires heads??

It kills me how anyone can spend money on a personal computer and Internet access when that money could be used for more worthwhile endeavors. Not to mention the time wasted posting on a baseball card message board that could be used to help mankind.

It's all relative.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Ten cents or ten million its all equal waste.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

It kills me how anyone can spend money on a personal computer and Internet access when that money could be used for more worthwhile endeavors. Not to mention the time wasted posting on a baseball card message board that could be used to help mankind.

It's all relative.

Funniest answer EVER to the world hunger problem. Sam Kinison (RIP).

[barrysloate]

The Superman refrigerator magnet is always visible, assuming the episode has a scene in his apartment. He mentions something about Superman in roughly half of them.