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Originally Posted by oldjudge
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I am amazed, baffled and perplexed at how people rate Rivera as the greatest pitcher of all time. I don't doubt is greatness, but let's take a look at his greatness compared to others.
His job is to get THREE outs a game. Can you imagine Bob Gibson if he needed to get only three outs each time he pitched. He would drill the first guy in the back, then strike out the next three. Seriously, I would love to ask Gibson the question if he only had to close, and he did that excellently, that he would be considered the greatest pitcher of all-time. I think he would chuckle. One season, Gibson pitched 302 innings and had a 1.12 ERA! I know that you all know that stat but please read that again. Rivera has pitched more than 80 innings in only one season during is career. Now read that stat again.
Another point about a closer, especially Rivera. For a team to win a game, the team must score more runs than the other team. It becomes far more difficult when the team is behind and has to come up with runs to come from behind to win the game. How many times has Rivera helped his team come from behind to win a game? You can probably count this number on one hand.
Also, the point that Hank Thomas brought up is one that is so overlooked. Whitey Ford is considered on of the greatest pitchers of all time. But he never had to pitch against his Yankees, the dominant team by far of his time. Mariano Rivera never had to pitch against the dominant team of his time. The Yankees over the past 17 years are clearly the best team of this era, especially the hitters. Rivera never had to pitch against these guys. What would is stats be if he had to close against this group one out of 6 times?
And finally is a big deal to end the game 3 outs early? I don't minimize this, but saying that he is the greatest pitcher of all time is like saying that the guy who watched Michael Jordan for the last minute of 5 games is more valuable than the guy who watched him for the first 47 minutes of those games. Maybe this player did a great job at crunch time. But each basket counts no matter when it is scored. Likewise, each run counts no matter when it is scored.
Rivera is a great pitcher, but when he only averages 78 innings per year, this is not close to the best of all time. Let me quote you some other stats. Walter Johnson had a career record of 417-279 in 5914 innings. (Rivera pitched 1207 innings.) But of those 279 losses, Washington was shut out in
65 of those games. SIXTY-FIVE of is losses occurred because is team did not score a single run. Give him the Yankees hitting and there would never be a discussion of who the greatest pitcher of all time was.
So it baffles me when writers state that a pitcher who gets three outs each time he works is better than this?
Cy