[veloce]

I'll go:
Baseball: Ruth (Grove for pitchers)
Basketball: Jordan (curious where James ends up)
Football: Unitas/Montana (hard to compare positions in football, but QBs are more valuable than RBs/WRs. (Brady and Manning could eclipse these guys)
Hockey: Gretzky (who along with Orr,Howe, and Lemieux probably make up everyone's top 4)

It baffles me that some people are leaving off Gretzky in Hockey. Of all the sports, Gretzky's numbers are by far the most dominant.

I'm OK with saying "Orr is the greatest defenceman" or "Orr redefined the role of defenceman" or "Orr embodies everything great about hockey" or "I wish my daughter would marry Bobby Orr", but to say Orr is better "by a wide margin" over Gretzky is silly. At least keep the forwards, defenceman, and goalies separate.

To claim Lemieux is better due to goal rates is also a bit absurd. Goal rates are skewed towards shorter careers. The fact that Gretzky had a long and productive career with a normal decline phase shouldn't be held against him when comparing to guys like Orr, Bossy, or Lemieux. Also ignoring assists for Gretzky is like ignoring wins for Cy Young or strikeouts for Nolan Ryan. Gretzky had more assists than any other player has had points. Add in the fact that Gretzky has the most goals ever and he has 50% more points than #2 on the list! Lemieux was never going to come close to that even if the game hadn't slowed down after '94. While hockey stats are difficult to adjust for teams and era, I have never seen any analysis that puts Howe and Lemieux ahead over their careers (they do close the gap and Lemieux had a comparable, but shorter peak). Also, saying that Gretzky benefited from playing with great players like Kurri is misleading. Lemieux benefited from playing with Kevin Stevens because any competent linemate is going to benefit you. It is more fair to say Kurri and Stevens benefited from playing with Gretzky and Lemieux. Messier, Coffey, and Gretzky are all great players, but again why penalize Gretzky for capturing the cup with those guys? Of Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr, none won the cup in the second half of their careers. Howe and Orr had great teams that couldn't overcome greater Habs teams. Lemieux didn't win until he had some other HOFers surrounding him (Francis, Jagr, Murphy, Coffey, Recchi, Mullen). Although most were not at their peaks, this wasn't a "bunch of wannabees" inspired by Lemieux. Gretzky did carry the '93 Kings to the cup, but lost (as all the greats seem to) to Montreal. Strange that Montreal ended Howe's run in the 50s, Orr's run in the '70s, blocked Gretzky's last cup, and won it immediately after Lemieux's cups.

I totally understand if Howe, Orr, or Lemieux is your favorite hockey player, or if you want to include them in the best ever discussion; but, like Ruth in baseball, Gretzky is the man to beat.

Originally Posted by markf31

Hockey: Orr and Lemieux

Lemieux accomplished numbers quite comparable to Gretzky while playing with what was a losing team from his rookie year until 1991. The Penguins made the playoffs just once in Lemieux's first 7 seasons, but Lemieux put up unbelievable numbers still. While Gretzky benefited early in his career from playing with the likes of Kurri, Coffey, Messier, Anderson and Lowe...Lemieux played with the likes of Rob Brown, Bob Errey, Warren Young, Dan Quinn and Randy Cunneyworth. Lemieux finished his career with more goals per game, and more playoff goals per game than Gretzky.

Bobby Orr was the first defenceman to lead the NHL in scoring, the first to score 100 points in a season and the first to record 100 assists in a season. No defenseman besides Orr has ever led the league in assists; he did it five times. Not only was Orr the first defenseman to record 100 assists in a season, he was the first player to do so period. Orr changed how the position was played like no one else had before him.

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Ruth / Aaron (or Mays or Williams)
Jordan / Russell
Orr / Gretzky (Orr by a WIDE margin)
Montanna / Brady

Originally Posted by Writehooks

Mark hit the nail on the head: Orr and Lemieux ... although I would put Lemieux second to Gordie Howe, just ahead of Gretzky. As great as Gretzky was during Edmonton's glory years (I was an NHL beat writer for a Canadian daily from 83-92), he was surrounded by future Hall of Famers. After being traded to the Kings, he never won another thing. Lemieux, on the other hand, transformed what for the most part was a mediocre band of wannabes into two-time Stanley Cup champions and, in my opinion, would have eclipsed most of The Great One's scoring records if he hadn't been injured so often (above and beyond his cancer). Howe and Orr were simply the two most complete players in NHL history. Gordie was the template for every future power forward, and Orr completely transformed both the physical and mental way hockey is played. Sadly, because of his wonky knees, it all ended much too soon.