T206 Wagner value after Mastro confesses to cutting it
I think if we can learn from history, without a doubt the value will increase. Its all about the hype and the story that goes with it. The PSA mis graded T-206 Wagner card will now become one if the most sod after cards in the sports market. It's appeal most likely will be to the wealthy who want to have it as a social statis item or a conversation piece!
Take a look at the coin market and the 1913 Liberty nickel. Most likey case was a mint worker restruck 6 coins with the 1913 year on it right before they destroyed the die. He waited 7 years before showing up at a couple of coin shows to display them. Then he marketed them by advertising a high amount of money would be paid if anyone that could come up with one. Here is aquick story on it. http://coins.about.com/od/famousrare...913_Nickel.htm I'm sure there are other examples where the hype and story has made an item get record setting prices everytime it comes to the market. I think another item is a rare art painting that the UCLA library has on display. It was originally done from a husband to mock the art community because his wife's work was not accepted. This man had never painted before and hetried to make it the ugliest painting ever seen... Samething played out over the years with that item. My guess for the price of the now trimmed (industry known) T206 PSA Wagner card is over 5 million!!! It most likely will be in the same holder tooas the "new" owner can decide what to do. |
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I noticed the PSA 8 is not listed in the pop report. Was it always like this or was it changed? You would think the owner of the PSA 5 would claim to have the highest example graded.
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I think it's been known for quite a while that he trimmed that card. I don't think it will have any impact on the value. Altered or not it's still the nicest example of the most valuable card in the hobby, by a wide margin. Way out of my league, but 5 mil sounds like a reasonable estimate to me.
No one in their right mind would ever remove it from it's current holder. The card doesn't bring any where close to 5 mil in a PSA authentic, altered holder. |
I just saw your post Robert. I had to check the Pop report to verify for myself. I do remember seeing it before and there was an 8. I'm assuming it must have been changed. I find it hard to believe that PSA bought the card back to remove it from the population report. But I suppose according to their guarantee that's what they are supposed to do.
I just typed 00000001 into their cert verification link and it says it wasn't found in their database. |
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Throwing (HOF) Shop 45 75 120 225 400 625 1350 5500 20000 Heinie Wagner (bat on left shoulder) Shop 16 32 50 85 140 235 565 1600+ 3200 Heinie Wagner (bat on right shoulder) Shop 16 32 50 85 140 235 565 1600+ 3200 Honus Wagner (HOF) Shop 400000 675000+ 1300000 1800000 2500000 4000000 Bobby Wallace (HOF) Shop 45 75 120 215 390 635 1500 5250 26500 Ed Walsh (HOF) Shop 45 75 120 215 395 635 1450 5350 Jack Warhop |
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I think it will increase the value of the card believe it or not. It's a scandal now and the card probably would have graded quite well anyway. The bigger question is how PSA didn't know it was trimmed. Quite funny when comparing the "SGC scary needs to be brought up thread". PSA is not consistent nor is it not the best at grading cards. Unfortunately it's like Metallica vs Megadeth (yes I brought it there). While Metallica (PSA) sounds great it really isn't as good as Megadeth (SGC), it's all a popularity contest and total bs. |
personally I'd like to know exactly how the grading of that wagner went down. i'd surmise all the major players were in a room together with some graders(I mean friends) all discussing the merits of the card and if there were a way to detect trim/alteration...prior to slabbing it and creating a hobby changing money making machine all founded on a lie!
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But what's the Cincinnati Wagner worth today?
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well here's another crook's account of the history of the wagner.
http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=24080 |
Maybe they took the Wagner down until the smoke clears
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That's a good theory, Charles.
At one time, the card was listed separately on the pop report as the "McNall/Gretzky" Wagner, but now it does appear to be removed. |
Thanks Chuck! I also remember the Wagner listed as Mcnall/Gretzky
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I was toying around with some ideas for a custom t-shirt for last year's national convention in Cleveland. I ultimately went with a design based on my avatar, but this was one I was contemplating and scrapped...
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Hey Chuck: That's a great shirt. The T206 collectors would go crazy for that one!
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nice chuck...just title it mastro's barber shop...trim all 4 sides...and you're in business.
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I definitely would buy more than one!
GREAT IDEA ! Let's just hope that having 'PSA' on it would not cause legal grief. . . |
i want one too...make mine xl!
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It will be interesting if the current owner decides to sell it and it goes through a auction house how the slab will be presented. I assume the value could increase simply because of the publicity, it's still a valuable card no doubt. I'm interested in seeing what is going to happen to the slab and the grade and how it will be presented back to the hobby. Value aside this is the supposed flagship card (or one of them) of our hobby and of this particular grading company.
Ricky Y |
LOL! Well, if I get motivated over the next few days I'll see if I can create one on Zazzle and then everyone can order. Too funny... :D
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My guess is that the Gretzky Wagner will begin to taper off in value, perhaps with its next sale. But, I've felt this way about vintage cards generally for some time due to aging baby boomers (like me) and possibly a general economic downturn [This is not intended as a political statement in any way, just a fearful concern.]. I suspect that the facts don't (yet) bear me out on this but don't follow auctions closely enough to know.
Can't help but weighing in on music reference. Just to show how musical taste is so subjective, and with all respect (seriously) to others, I've never been able to develop a taste for heavy metal (or rap for that matter). It seems to me that pop music, with some notable exceptions (Avett Brothers, Mumford & Sons), has been heading downhill since the 70s (Springsteen, Doobies, Elton, Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Billy Joel, et al.). On the other hand, some music strikes me as timeless (Ahmad Jamal, Leadbelly, lots of other jazz and blues). Never much cared for most classical music either although many folks I respect (including my wife) think most highly of it. |
And the 70s were downhill compared to the 60s. That stuff you cite was mostly derivative. :D
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To me Mumford and Avett sound like copycat rock when I hear Fleet Foxes and Future Islands. It's all in the beholder and honestly I don't see vintage card prices drop until the expiration of the kids who collected in the late 80s and early 90s who are in their 30s now with buying power. I'm in that group and the fact that I can actually buy these vintage Wiliams Mantles etc after pouring over them in Becketts is truly awesome. I give it another 40 years or so until the kids who have grown into purchasing power age NEVER collected cards and never held a Beckett every month drooling over the 52 Mantle listing. Just my 2.
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As to the value of the Wagner, to me the history of the card means that it will exclude buyers who might otherwise buy a Wagner, as well as bring in buyers who would not normally bid. The question is do the bidders who abstain represent a greater opportunity for higher price discovery than those brought in by the story. I personally think the celebrity status will bring in more deep pockets for the card than ever before... That having been said, if it sells again and misses its previous sale price, look out below.
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Highest regards, Larry |
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Thanks, Bill Mastro, for your large contribution in destroying the hobby. Bill |
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Also, it may not be the nicest Wagner. I have heard that there is an ungraded one much nicer than the 5s and not trimmed. |
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"At the PSA lunch right now - David Hall is 100 percent standing by the PSA 8 grade, and says the only debate was whether to grade it a 7 or 8. He says they will stand by their product but they don't believe the evidence to date." "Not sure if anything was recorded, but Hall was adamant that he examined te Wagner with a magnifying glass and stood by it, but if anything was proven otherwise and PSA had to compensate a buyer for any reason, that was part of their guarantee." "Hall said Hughes told him that the quotes in the book and the newspaper articles were outright lies, and Hughes never said he knew the card was trimmed." |
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EDIT TO ADD By today's standards, perhaps not quite. In any event, I believe this is the one. All roads seem to lead to Bill. |
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Bill |
And, if it's trimmed 8's you're into you most likely find plenty of them for a lot less money. :D
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IF PSA hasn't made a deal with Kendrick, see the posts about it not appearing in the pop report or cert check, I agree with J.C. and others that it likely will go up. Trimmed or not is really beside the point given the card's unique notoriety.
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What I would be interested in would be finding what kind of a hit the collections such as Olbermann, Barkman and Masson took to their overall worth.
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Mastro confessed in 2013, or in any event it was made public then. There is nothing new this week.
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Let's hope someday my net worth is high enough that this is a real decision I have to make and not a hypothetical one. |
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The great thing about Lemmy is he sounded like he was 60 when he was 30 so you can still listen to him today and sounds the exact same as day 1. And I too prefer Dave and the boys to James and his crew, but its like Filet Mignon and Prime Rib, either will do nicely. And Lemmy is a side order of a full rack of ribs. |
It's the most famous card in the hobby and still presents very well.
And still has the PSA 8 ID So, even though we know it's trimmed, I would wager that the owner makes a profit when he sells. I know many of us on this board would prefer to believe that now we know officially the card is trimmed, it is worthless. Sorry, reality will go in the other direction. Rich |
I agree!!
Megadeath >>>>>>>>>>>>>Metallica!! SGC>>>>>>>>>>>PSA Quote:
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