I serve on a board of trustees and know you never get everything you want.

Has he yet addressed the allegations that the PWCC ebay account was used to buy cards submitted by Moser?

If I can find out the rotten egg at PSA, I can get this passed.

This.

Right. Moser and who else?

Verify then Trust
Court Order Subpoenas and Search Warrants for all electronic communications and records only way to find the truth
Without Above Happening This Will Be Very Difficult to Prove
Who has been submitting the cards that’s the bottom line here

SSDD as in 2016, when it involved shilling and allowing consignors to bid on their own items. The “leopards” have not changed their spots.

Can everyone say Deja Vu?

I guess this means that since people wouldn’t buy into the new “tenets” (i.e. cheating is ok unless you get caught) that they were trying to push/defend, and with their professional reputation badly tarnished plus a possibility of criminal investigations and civil torts a growing reality, they now come out with the kind of statement that should have come out immediately from a truly reputable market maker at the outset.

Clearly this is another example of a recurring business strategy/practice with this market maker; When you find you cannot get away with unethical actions, then feign victimhood and do whatever you have to do to save your own skin.

And not a mention, not even a denial, of the allegations that accuse them of being directly involved in the purchase of cards that were then supposedly altered, re-subbed and then resold?

Those who walked away from this market maker in 2016 were the smart ones.

Integrity will ALWAYS matter!

Other known card doctors getting cards past the Third Party Grading services and listing through PWCC, Probstein, etc. to cover their tracks:

Bill Sliheet - SSIGuy (Superior Sports Investments)
Samir Sliheet - Superior Sports Investments
Nate Nichols - affiliated with the Dallas area BGS trimmers
Will Jaimet - Heroes of Sport, submitter to PWCC
Gary Moser - eBay whitman111 vintage cards dating back to 1880s consigned to PWCC after grading by PSA
Eric Bitz - Buynicecards
Brian Deer- isellurcards (formerly Bristol Collectibles)
Kevin Burge- longtime modern card dealer
Brent Huigens
Dick Towle - Gone With the Stain
Robert Block - longtime BGS trimmer
Steve Tormollan

This guy is FUNNY! Like that could ever happen...

The other big vintage doctors have not been outed over there.

Heavy Circumstantial Evidence: BGS giving preferential grades to WJCII (Joe Clemons), former employee
Heavy Circumstantial Evidence: Gabriel Seraf replacing boring patches with SICK MOJO PATCHES

Are any of these docs part of the Net54 community?

Hi Peter - yes, I've seen those. I've pretty much read every post of every relevant thread. I contributed a very small amount of the research to find original sales of some of the cards. Big kudos to those other blowout guys, though - they deserve all the credit.

I'm highly skeptical that an entire list will ever be produced, and here are a couple reasons why.

#1 - Money. Neither PWCC or PSA is going to want to refund on these cards. I think PWCC will selectively try and take the hit, but there are very likely going to be thousands of cards just from Moser. Who knows what else is out there, but I think it's pretty safe to assume there is way more than we've seen. As good as those Blowout guys are, they just don't have enough info to find it all and the Moser relationship alone goes back 7-8 years AT LEAST. That's not the only one out there, we just don't have great proof of others yet but I would imagine they are out there. I just don't believe PWCC will be able to take the hit across all the cards by themselves, so a flip numbers release is a low probability event. I don't see any way PSA agrees to admit they missed anything. As a public company, their ONLY real course of action is to defend their graders. Any flip number release from them is a no probability event. Get used to these words - "within tolerance", as that will be the key phrase. So then, is PWCC going to sue PSA to force them to contribute? That to me is also a going out of business strategy.

#2 - The Set Registry. I know a lot of people think the Set Registry is one of the reasons we are in this mess, but can you imagine the upheaval there is all of a sudden PSA were to actually decertify a bunch of cards? That's basically an invitation to make the claim for market difference with them, which again I see is a no probability event.

#3 - Data. In order to cross reference anything that comes out, you'd need the consignor and sales data from PWCC, all the submission data from PSA (and/or other TPGs) and all the bidder/sale data from eBay so it could all be cross-checked. There is NO WAY eBay is going to release all that data to anyone, and I don't see PSA releasing submission owner data to anyone. Once again, the public companies aren't going to assist this effort unless they are compelled to do so by a government agency of some kind, which is a fight that could take years and even if they had to do it the public market would NEVER get to see any of it.

So with that as your backdrop, I think the easiest choice is that PSA fights everyone to the death over their grades and backs their graders 100%, PWCC tries to take the financial hit and hopes the weight of lost consignment revenue and refunds for questionable cards doesn't sink them. No way PSA contributes to this, otherwise they are just inviting the refunds to pass over to them. PWCC isn't likely to fight that if they ever want to be able to submit again, otherwise they'd have to sue PSA which is essentially a going out of business plan as well.

There's no clear path here, but ultimately the easiest path seems to be this is PWCCs problem, and everybody else just kind of walks away. That's my take anyway.

Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.

I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?

I've asked the exact same question in multiple threads. Like you, not justifying what happened or defending anyone, I'm just not sure what laws were broken.

Mr. Chairman
 

Along with the altered T206 Jennings," there are at least 245 communists in the State Department!" How can a accurate list of the "doctored cards" be put together?

I believe both wire fraud and mail fraud can be applied if those responsible are not disclosing the alteration and using the internet and/or USPS to sell the card in question. Depending on the volume and aggregate value of the cards involved there also might be a a racketeering/RICO issue.

Negligence. And if they knowingly knew that it was altered...well there’s your crime. Not saying they did but hard to ignore the volume from at least one trimmer.


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I answered you, but maybe you didn't read it. Or maybe I don't count, that's fine lol.

Negligence of this kind is not a legal violation. It’s a civil tort.

Knowingly misrepresenting something to be something that it's not - that's basically the definition of fraud.

Where money is involved, that makes it a crime.

Proving it sufficiently to convict in a court of law, could be a long road. This game is in the early innings still, there's a lot more to come.

Knowledge of the law is not a prerequisite here to pontificating about the law.

Negligence is not a crime.

Thank goodness. I'm an engineer and get all my legal "training" from television. Loved Matlock as a kid.

I was not aware that trimmed or recolored cards meet PSA's criteria for getting numerical grades. And that's the point. If the cards are submitted with full disclosure what was done to them, then that would be fine. But they are being submitted under a guise that such work was not performed, with the intent the cards be eventually purchased by collectors believing they are unaltered.

You see nothing fraudulent in that?

I always liked Columbo myself.

So true.:D

Todd yeah I used to have the patience for it, but I resist the temptation much of the time now.

While what they're doing is unethical, Im not so sure it's against the law. They're representing it as it is certified to be. If (insert any TPG here) says it's a (insert grade here) and they're selling it as such, not sure they're breaking any law. Let me be clear for all. I'm not justifying it, I just don't see how they're legally (key word) misrepresenting it. Wouldn't their defense in court be that they paid for a 3rd party opinion and that third party is supposed to label altered cards as such? That they were expecting the TPG to label it as such?

Didn't you and I have this exact discussion? Or am I losing it? Go read the mail and wire fraud statutes and come back. Don't read RICO, there would be no need for a prosecutor to go there.

See what I mean, Todd? "I'm not so sure it's against the law."

This is really painful to read.

If I sell house and don’t tell the buyer there was six feet of water in the basement of the house last year that is not a crime. If I signed a disclosure document affirmatively saying there was never a flood at the house that could be a crime.
If someone can point me to a law saying that the seller of a collectible needs to disclosure any alterations done to the card prior to the sale I’m all ears.

Not justifying this just wondering what law enforcement is up to. If they are up to anything.

Not sure how many got the Manchurian Candidate reference. What a movie!

Sorry. Now back to the real drama...

That may be a successful defense as long as it cannot be shown that they had knowledge of any alterations. If it can be shown they knew the doctoring was occurring then this line of defense will not save them.

Yet again. Mail fraud and wire fraud. Fraud -- remember? Intentional misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact.

18 USC 1341 and 1343.

But here is the problem. There are differences of opinion of alterations. Some believe, and have even stated such, that the alteration improved the condition of the card (as if it's a good thing). A small percentage of the collecting world believes that. So, if it's a matter of opinion, how can you say you have to disclose something that's some consider as an improvement?

FWIW, I don't think any alteration is an improvement.

I’m buying puts on CLCT tomorrow.

I can see this leading to PSA needing to repurchase altered cards that are likely worth a fraction of their original value.

Even if they weren’t in cahoots with PWCC, it has been proven that their grading capabilities are horrendous. Reputation completely tarnished with a high likelihood that their future grading revenues decline significantly.

And if they were in cahoots, this ship is going to sink even quicker.


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Uh oh, we're getting some attention. ;)

So if some think altering a card is a good thing and improves the card, why would you need to disclose something that is beneficial? Again, I'm not saying it is, just trying to approach this others points of view.

If I'm a house flipper and I buy a house with old aluminum wiring and have it rewired to bring it up to date, do I have to disclose it? It would obviously be a good selling point, but do I have to legally disclose it?

That’s kind of what started this whole crisis.

The hobby basically looks at this along the following lines:

Anything done to hide, disguise or remove degradation and/or deterioration that already occurred to a card is alteration and is not acceptable.

Brent tried to push a narrative that if such action can be detected then it’s ok and labeled it conservation.

Based on the response I’d say the vast majority of the hobby stakeholders felt he was full of it.

And what is a material fact in the context of fraud here would be determined by what a majority or even a substantial minority of people would deem important. Anyhow, lots of these cards are trimmed, so it's really a moot discussion.

Woe is us!
 

I see this whole mess ending very badly for everyone. Dealers, collectors, investors AND TPG's alike. How in the world will PSA be able to buy back all of those altered cards, that got by them, at the prices that their monthly SMR says they are worth?
After all CEO Joe O. has signed off "Taking My Hacks" each and every month with "Never get cheated".

there's a reason why I have never and will never purchase from PWCC. They have always been scammers and whether you want to believe it or not, they WILL ALWAYS be scammers. So once this all blows over and all the idiots who were blatantly bidding on not only shilled auctions but altered cards to boot and who are now complaining about said auctions because now they have an overpriced altered card,well guess what? they WILL be back buying from PWCC again lol, why? because people are idiots. PWCC will keep on doing all the shady things they have been doing this whole time, why you ask?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

As long as there's money to be made, there will always be scammers. As long as there are consignments services, the scammers will hide behind them and when fraud is exposed the consignors will play dumb and pass the blame onto the consignees and the process will repeat itself until people stop paying the exorbitant prices these shilled auctions are selling for.

Also, please tell me that there isn't a single person that didn't see one of the TPG companies being corrupt lol. I mean, they are an open door for corruption! All these idiots who swear by PSA are the same ones who are gonna be crying when their PSA 8 1951 Mantle they paid almost 6 figures for is really an altered card worth $5k lol

As a side note, I can't help but get the feeling this situation is the first of many of the dominoes to fall which will in turn burst this massive bubble our hobby is in.

Some expect they'll fight tooth and nail on each and every one on which a buyback is requested.

15 years of selling altered cards, likely from multiple sources not just one, and we get a golly we're sorry about all the Moser cards.

Greed is the real backbone of our hobby

The root of all evil. Truer words...

Actually in this case PSA has apparently found a willing party to cover those costs instead of going to jail for being party to a fraud.

I expect that as cards are shown to be altered and traceable to PWCC they (PWCC) will make restitution for them and turn in the cards to PSA. Meanwhile, PSA will continue to stand behind their brand and methods.

Unless forced by legal actions to disclose the full breadth of possible affected cards there is no way PSA would ever issue a comprehensive flip list. Ultimately only those cards that can shown to be doctored (along the lines of what has been shown on BO) will ever be dealt with. The rest will stay in their existing slabs and continue to be regarded as the real deal by those who are not aware of this situation. If submitted for review PSA has no incentive to change the original opinion, because doing so would undermine the perception of their brand.

If you have any doubts about this scenario coming to pass just go back a few years and see what happened to the majority of the “late model” vintage cellos with stars showing that made it into slabs and are still being bought, sold and exchanged in the hobby today.

This isn’t like Johnson & Johnson and the Tylenol problem in the 80s.

This is exactly what I've been trying to convey all along, but it seems to fall on a lot of deaf ears. I guess this group largely wants PSA to thrive and survive for personal financial reasons.