OMG PSA slabs blatantly altered Tiger Woods rookie, then it passes ebay program
 

So much for the ebay authenticity program being meaningful, if it doesn't even look at or for obvious altered cards. This card has no perforations it is as obvious a hack job as has ever existed. Look at the top edge lol. BUT the holder isn't tampered, hallelujah.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=612

PSA is a joke, but it doesn’t really matter. Most will continue to use them no matter how many thousands of problems there are because it’s not really about being competent or correct, it’s about making money by any means.

The authenticity guarantee program isn't much better, if its scope doesn't even include flagging something this blatant. This is not a close call or a matter of interpretation, it's a complete eff up.

The authenticity program works at its purpose: making money. It is not for PSA to actually admit they’ve wrongly graded thousands and thousands of items. That’s why they’re “authenticating” the slab, so they don’t have to actually do anything and can just get a cut on the card again.

Wow. Does not work.
I am shocked
Wow.In for the money
I am shocked

Reality nothing with them shocks me

With so many new graders I am sure this just got by one who didn't know the issue which is a bit unusual in that it's got perforations from being separated from a sheet. Still. And an "authenticity guarantee" that covers nothing more than the holder itself is IMO fairly meaningless.

It’s my understanding that this is correct. They are looking to make sure that the slab is authentic and unaltered, and not really looking at the card at all. Mark my words, slabbed slabs are coming!

+1 agree do not roll out the guarantee until you have the resources to guarantee it.

Take it up with PSA. If you report it using their APR tool once the sale posts, PSA will sometimes recall the item and decertify it. They would also have to shell out on their Grade Guarantee.

This is a little like complaining that the guy you hired to paint your house didn't also reupholster your couch. Ebay isn't judging the authenticity of the card, just that the holder itself isn't tampered with.

Of course, you already know this but for some reason you're complaining about Ebay here - who is performing a service for free - instead of PSA, who are the ones who actually screwed up AND charged for it.

eBay isn’t judging anything. PSA inspects the PSA slab to authenticate the slab while ignoring the card itself. What a useful ‘service’ being provided.

If ypu collect PSA graded cards you need to blame it on eBay, bad eBay.

I have never understood the hate for a FREE eBay program that helps people.

this is all PSA imo...not ebay.

In agreement that this one falls on PSA for 80% as I think that eBay is likely to always fall on the side of the grader so they don't create a back and forth with grading companies. I also think if they are too scared to question the grading for legal reasons, packaging should be very clearly labeled on all documentation that the card is not observed and we have only certified that the slab is untampered, that to me is the other 20%.

The other even more annoying problem to me is the sellers language:

"1996 S.I For Kids Tiger Woods Series 3 #536 Mint 9 and has already been Authenticated by PSA and Ebay which is Ebay's new policy. They work with PSA and several other graders on guaranteed certification before your card is shipped"

Everything this clown said is bulls**t. Ebay/CSG did not authenticate the card and that stupid package means jack. They also do not work with the other grading companies in any way to certify a graded card. I doubt they would even walk over to the other room to talk to a CSG grader if a CSG slab comes in. My fear was people would start using this program as an actual grading program and it should not be.

This is what someone sees unless they read the fine print. Deceptive IMO.

Authenticity Guarantee
This item is verified by an authenticator before delivery

Fixing a problem? Being part of the solution? What's the fun in that.

It’s always interesting to compare:

The number of posters who have an issue with the incompetence of PSA that is being reported

Versus

The number of posters who have an issue that the incompetence of PSA is being publicly reported

After I wrote him he changed it to this. Not much better.
Ebay co-ordinates with PSA and several other graders on authenication before your card is shipped.

More importantly, he claims it came off the sheet like this. RIGHT.

I wonder how many tampered with slabs has Ebay outed? Not many, I suspect.
This whole program is confusing and markedly slows delivery of our cards.

I've used PSA to slab a few tickets - and that's for protection - nothing else.....couldn't give a hoot about the grade they assigned to my tickets....

I've never - and will never send a card in for grading.....I am mostly a raw guy, but will buy some PSA slabbed cards IF - I LIKE THE CARD.....I've seen so many EX 5s that look no better than VG....Seen 8s that look like EX cards....and on and on...

I once bought a game used Ernie Banks bat back around 2005....The bat was absolutely killer.....When I received the bat from the auction company, there was a letter from PSA authenticating the signature on the bat......Problem was, there was no signature on the bat.....the bat was never signed.....

The Authentication program is worthless IMHO....As Yoda says, it just slows down the delivery.....

Buy the card.....don't buy the grade.....

Yes, there is a whole new rhythm now to the timing of buying ebay cards. And honestly based on one amazing experience I had and have discussed before, I'm skeptical PSA could even spot a well done fake slab, at least the lower level people they doubtless have assigned to reviewing the hundreds of ebay cards coming in daily.

Ok, so it's PSA don't the inspection. Distinction without a difference. OP is still complaining about the wrong thing.

The complaint against PSA here goes without saying, I was making an additional point. But fine, yes obviously PSA effed this up badly in the first place.

As the OP was factually correct and you were factually wrong, it seems your complaint was the one “about the wrong thing”. You might not agree with the complaint, but it’s at least valid and not “about the wrong thing”.

Here's another casualty of the program. Someone I know had several cards he shipped to the authenticator disappear after reaching the Santa Ana post office. He was told a very large bin of cards intended for PSA or whatever pseudonym they use for their address as authenticator was stolen. So that means lots of buyers didn't get their cards at all.

Sigh.

Breaking news. . . nothing is perfect and people make mistakes. Film at 11.

Do you have any example of the good this has done? Has PSA found a single fake PSA slab to remove?

Doesn’t seem like a “nothing is perfect” so much as “this does nothing but delay and possibly lose your item while adding no benefit”.

Who ended up taking the hit on the money?

You should think the worst in people to get along here.

Says a man who has never posted a complaint, surely. :eek::D

In my friend's case, he had an insurance policy against shipping losses. Otherwise I don't know.

I think on Blowout a poster stated he had heard of one such fake slab found, or claimed anyhow by PSA. Or perhaps it was here.

But hey, I am glad my Kawhi Leonard $500 rookie was just blessed, I am sure there was a real high chance that card slabbed a month ago by the seller could have been a fake slab.

Awesome, one. That’s actually the highest total I’ve seen yet. This program isn’t doing anything but route cash to PSA to… authenticate the plastic holder (we all know what really matters and it ain’t the card). That people want to defend this as “not everything is perfect” tells you there is no real coherent argument for how this makes a lick of sense. The raw card version can be spun, but this is sillier than a purple sticker and clearly does nothing.

There is no way it is sillier than a purple sticker.:)

To repeat. I was involved helping someone who had a PSA 9 major rookie card in what was pretty clearly a fake slab. PSA instead of identifying it as such so he could get his money back from a major auction gave it a new cert number and reholdered it. I don't trust them to spot fakes. Certainly, during the period it was more of a problem (on certain cards, never across the board), they didn't issue any guidance to collectors.

But you and I are the heavies for opposing a program aimed at weeding out fraud. LOL.

A program aimed at weeding out fraud would, of course, actually look at the card, the item we are ostensibly buying, and not it’s plastic holder. It’s pretty hard to be a reasonable person and a PSA shill these days, but there is no lack of effort.

This program is great if you own part of PSA. The raw version I disagree with but there is a reasoned argument for. The graded version here is clearly designed to not actually do anything - PSA won’t do any review that would make them have to fulfill their guarantee and pay out on the thousands and thousands of mistakes and frauds they’ve certified and continue to certify.

It also gives a false sense of security to people who don't read the fine print; the big print is misleading.

I have very low expectations of people and companies and expect self-serving deceit and corruption. Still, when I first got a card from this program I was a little surprised at just how little it actually says about what they have done. Even here it doesn’t seem common knowledge that they are NOT examining the card at all, and I get why. They have really buried what they are doing.

What you get from PSA is actually quite deceptive. Reading from one that came today:

Authentic without a doubt (in bold)

Your CARD (my emphasis) has been meticulously inspected by a team of experts, so you can display it with total confidence.

My interpretation is that they covering ass by this phrasing; by certifying the slab is legit that means, of course, the card was inspected by a team (well, 1 it seems) of experts. Of course it SOUNDS like your card was inspected again. It’s not just incomplete, it’s incredibly dishonest without technically being an absolute lie.

I do not always like eBay’s choices, but by and large they have historically been honorable to buyers, with a generous refund policy and other policies designed around protecting buyers. This is absolute bullshit, how they very intentionally are misleading buyers now about what’s actually going on. Even if one likes this program that is just rubber stamping every slab again, they should be against the undeniably dishonest marketing and statements eBay makes about it.

Yeah, maybe there's some Clintonesque way to make it literally true, but anyone reading it is going to assume it describes what was JUST done in the review and it is 100 percent deceptive unless you go read the fine print. Indeed, it seems tailored to the CSG review, not the PSA.

Exactly. Clintonesque honesty is little better than outright lying. It can be clever and effective, but it’s disappointing eBay is choosing this path. The PSA program is a stupid rubberstamping but they could at least describe it truthfully. That they won’t, and they have had ample time to adjust how they talk about it here, should tell folks that this is difficult to justify. Not even eBay wants to talk about what it’s actually doing; a buried sentence in an old announcement is, I believe, the only honest telling that has been given that they are just looking at the slab itself and ignoring the card.

Excuse me if this has been asked. Would this card pass through the authentication program if it was sold raw like that? I don’t think so but if the Gods blessed it then it must be so, I guess.


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One can imagine, as more and more of these things come out of the program and get put back on ebay, how many auctions are going to do what the Tiger Woods one does and overstate the effect of the "authentication." So the great anti fraud program will become a vehicle for deception.

I would hope CSG would notice it’s obviously cut down and reject it in the raw program where they ostensibly look at the actual card. I don’t feel like I’ve seen enough to guess if they are even more or less likely than PSA to certify obvious frauds.

The “void” seal is so laughably bad that you can swap any card into it too. As none of the documentation comes with anything that identifies the actual card, you can just easily swap in anything and claim it was verified.

Isn't there some scannable code that identifies the card?

Yes, but you’d only get that after you receive the fraud and the seller has run off with the cash. I don’t see this as a way to scam on eBay itself, but selling on the forums and discords, it’s probably going to crop up. The presentation looks good but doesn’t identify the card beyond the code that no one will run even if they get a close up to actually scan in advance (how many buyers are running PSA cert numbers before the purchase? 1%?)

And yet, in the post right above your reply, OP agreed with me as factually correct about his post. Go figure.

eBay is not performing the service you claimed; the seller ships it to PSA who does not look at the card, only the slab, performing the service. This is a fact.

I'm not so sure that it isn't accurately graded to begin with. I've seen multiple cards that typically have perforations get slabbed with numeric grades on them despite being cut with a blade just like this one was. The cards came in sheets that were intended to be removed from those sheets by the owners. Why should it matter whether someone chooses to tear it out by hand along the perforations or with a pair of scissors? I remember collecting these SI cards as a kid. I cut them out with scissors at the age of 7. Does that mean I "altered" my cards? Some of the hobby "rules" just seem completely arbitrary to me. I just don't get it. Surely there are things worth worrying about. I don't understand why this is one of those things.

Why am I not shocked you would cut out a perforated card that is meant to be removed by hand?

[QUOTE=Snowman;2259601]I'm not so sure that it isn't accurately graded to begin with. I've seen multiple cards that typically have perforations get slabbed with numeric grades on them despite being cut with a blade just like this one was. The cards came in sheets that were intended to be removed from those sheets by the owners. Why should it matter whether someone chooses to tear it out by hand along the perforations or with a pair of scissors? I remember collecting these SI cards as a kid. I cut them out with scissors at the age of 7. Does that mean I "altered" my cards? Some of the hobby "rules" just seem completely arbitrary to me. I just don't get it. Surely there are things worth worrying about. I don't understand why this is one of those things.[/QUOTEI

It isn't like Bazookas where there is a dotted line meant to be cut. There are perforations and obviously they are meant to be separated by hand, tearing along the perfs. I think it's that simple.

Let’s assume that trimming is arbitrary and doesn’t matter. Let’s assume a cut line and a perforated line are the same thing. It doesn’t make any difference.

Whether or not one agrees with a grading standard, and I would think the vast majority disagree on some point or other, the problem, as any reasonable person would be able to discern, is that the grader routinely ignores their own standards or are too incompetent to notice the obvious that violates their own standards. It is not PSA’s policy to number grade perforated cards trimmed below the perforations.

The condition evaluation scale is, obviously, arbitrary. Whether and how much trimming a card, creasing it, or pushing a pin through it should detract is arbitrary. That it is arbitrary does not mean the grader, who is allegedly an expert, should simply ignore their own standards they have set whenever they don’t notice the obvious or just don’t feel like it.

The distractions, mental gymnastics, and obvious bullshit the PSA shills have to come up with these days is crazy. As usual, there are as many or more people defending the corruption or incompetence than there are those who question it. The hobby will remain a cesspool of crooks and their enablers as people are obviously vested in defending almost any fraud and/or incompetence. To question it would risk devaluing the precious slabs, and when push comes to shove it’s all about profit over honesty, logic, common sense, or integrity.

I think that in deciding to play ostrich in the face of the scandal, PSA calculated that most of its customer base was loyal and/or didn't really care about the issues so long as the flip said what it said and/or was so invested that they would defend PSA no matter what, and it seems they were right.

It’s a pretty good gig, having your customer base do your defense and marketing for you, while not expecting any degree of actual competence or ethics. It’s almost hard to blame PSA anymore when most of the hobby seems invested in allowing and defending literally any behavior, no matter how egregious. Why do things properly when their customer base expects and allows the opposite?

To add insult to injury for the long lag time, their silly little blue holder is worthless and adds no value at all. When I receive one, the first thing I do is liberate my card and trash the blue turd.

It's hard to imagine any other business (maybe other collectibles, dunno) where a scandal of this proportion would only enhance the market position of the company involved.

Never ever underestimate the degree of denial, indifference and defending a human will do when you show them a little money. So many buy cards now for profit or appreciation. Greed is sadly at the basis of their motivation. It is easy for those of them to look the other way and not bite the hand that feeds them but to defend and rage.

Just wait until Snowman wakes up this afternoon to read the board and the comments. He might not drop F bombs but if ya think those other two defenders/pumpers got upset on Tues, you have not seen anything.

…..

Oh. I was wrong. Snowman wasted no time going to the F bomb on the UJ Ruth thread. Today is gonna be a great one.

I guess this is where we disagree. I don't see perforations as something that must only be split apart by hand. In fact, I'd take it one step further and say that a "gem mint" copy of any card with perforations must be cut by a blade perfectly along the center of those perforations. Make the cut wrong, and your grades should suffer as a result. To each their own. But that would be my preference even to this day as a non 7-year old.

To be clear though, I am in agreement regarding the general viewpoint of PSA's incompetence here. They are wildly inconsistent and it's a shame. It really shouldn't be that difficult to choose a stance and stick to it.

As far as the authentication aspect goes, I don't think the criticism is warranted. It's not a grading service. They're not supposed to "grade the graders" with these. It's almost certainly just a team of near-minimum-wage workers who have been trained on how to spot a fake slab. They're probably sitting in the shipping and receiving department. These cards never even make it over to the grading room floor.

Bulletproof, any fraud, lie or incompetence is fine when your investors might profit.

Fair enough, they are providing (while requiring) the service rather than actually performing it. The overall point I was making remains the same.

+1 on that.

There will be a time in the not too distant future ebay puts a cost on this authentication of slabs. I would give about a nickel for that service but would expect change.
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