Sports Card DAO
 

Not sure how many are familiar with the concept of DAO(Decentralized Autonomous Organizations) but they are basically a group chat with a bank account that uses the blockchain for transparency. Recently a group crated a DAO and raised 47 Million to bid on the US constitution. DAO’s allow people who buy tokens to be able to vote on the actions of the group without a hierarchy or traditional management model. Everyone has a voice and reaps the rewards.
Anyone here interested in starting a Sports card DAO to create a basket of high end vintage cards as a fractional investment?
Basically the way Rally and Collectible work but the owners of the DAO are everyone who invests and not a central person controlling a company.
Here’s a couple of Articles on DAO’s and the potential benefits.

https://www.macobserver.com/link/what-is-a-dao/

https://www.ft.com/content/c4b6d38d-...c-7b5cf8f0cea6


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An interesting concept. I'd like to think about this a bit before responding. I'm slightly intrigued...

Respectfully, that is the last thing I would ever invest in. I understand enough about crypto and blockchain to know it’s a con, and I don’t want any part of it.

Lol ok


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I’m still doing my research on it as well. Fractional ownership has always intrigued me but I was never comfortable with the concept of a company having the final say without transparency. What I like about DAO’s is that the community has the authority in what to do with the investment and there’s full transparency with the blockchain records.
Still early days on DAO’s but so many exciting possibility’s with the technology.


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easy pass for me

No crypto for me
 

This has to do with the block chain. I am not a crypto person. IF that is what folks want to do, more power to them. Have fun. I like my cards in hand...
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So without a central entity in charge, who takes physical possession of the asset? Who is responsible for up keep and handling (i.e. insurance, handling sales, organizing owners wishes, proposing when to sell, etc)? Maybe I'm missing something or just don't understand the relationship between the physical and electronic tracking, but seems like it would be an easy way for someone to just disappear with the items.

The practice would be to propose and vote on this using the community discord based on the proposals made within the group. Everything is put to a vote and all members vote based on the rules set out in the terms of reference. In theory it’s a complete transparent democracy which is what makes it attractive because the owners have the power.


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As a hobbyist, I also like to have cards in hand. As an investor, I’ve seen the returns over time of high end blue chip vintage cards and it’s a great alternative asset to have as part of ur overall investment portfolio.


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I was wondering the same thing.

How does someone "buy in" to this? Does this require the potential investor to have a source of crypto currency to obtain the shares of the card board block chain? How does someone "cash out"? The assumption would be that the payout would be in some type of crypto currency. If, for example, you paid in Bitcoin to enter, would you get paid back in Bitcoin when you decided to sell or would the seller have to accept any crypto currency currently being traded in the crypto market, for example Dogecoin.

If played correctly, the person that starts this anonymous chain could say they own a card (which is physical) and not really own it. Is that a possibility?

Sounds like a possible card board Ponzi scheme.

Please, by all means, educate me on this - I'm an ignorant naysayer that could use a little more understanding of this potential investment vehicle. :confused: :p :)

Will there be an open marketplace where buyers and sellers can easily buy and sell their fractional shares? It is too complicated for my simple brain, so I will pass.

Even though the DAO for the constitution didn't pan out (they publicized their top bid allowing for an easy snipe), I think we'll see many more of these in the future. The blockchain has so much potential for diversified investment (including NFT's where artists can monetize works without middlemen). I haven't participated in any Collectable offerings but they have had a bunch of successful deals. As a collector, I too like to have my preciouses in hand so I can gollum over them but can see a place to have a fractional ownership/investment in certain big historical/expensive pieces.

And having the brain I have, I wonder about visitation rights, and whether conjugal visits will be on the table.

Brian

John, did you really mean to say:

"An open marketplace where buyers and sellers can easily buy and sell their fractional shares, will there be? Too complicated for my simple brain, it is, So I will pass."

LOL, auction houses wish everybody would publicize their top bids. That was basically a $20 million shill bid.

I can't possibly see how this could be taken advantage of. :D

Good questions!
With a DAO, you "buy in" with the token thats offered which may be in the form of a coin or even an NFT. This gives you voting power 1 token = 1 vote.

There is no "owner" as everyone who owns tokens are considered owners and every proposal is voted on with the results recorded on the smart contract on the blockchain which are transparent and unalterable. The group decides by vote what to buy and when to sell and how the profits would be paid out to coin holders. The group also decides how to procure and where to store the item through proposals and votes. The idea is that proposals are put forward and they are voted on by all the token holders.

To put it simply, this is the exact model Collectible(the fractional ownership platform) is currently using but instead of the owners of Collectible running the show, this is the cooperative effort of all the participants deciding what to do using the transparency of the blockchain.

Some more info on hows DAO's work
https://consensys.net/blog/blockchai...-do-they-work/

I know everyone loves PWCC, couldn't you pair this with their vault?

It may work for some but this is just not the way I see me going. I value real live things. Have you ever tried to flip a Non Fungible Token?

.

I see some major potential problems, but I'm interested to learn more.

Can you lay out the scenario a bit further that you have in mind? People get together and a create a "basket" of vintage cards, and then what? How would people make money, and why would it be better than operating individually with actual cards?

Just sounds like another modern headache. "I wouldn't touch that with a thirty nine and a half foot pole." - Dr. Seuss

This is what I figured. It sounds interesting.

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The article explanation sounds like a mutual fund. Contracts lay out the rules, I join by giving my money for a share, and I receive voting rights to vote for a manager. There are incentives in a mutual fund to be a part of it. Obviously there are slight differences, but with the contract there are legal ramifications. What lawyer among Net54 members would set up the contract?

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I wish all of you who "invest" a happy new year.

Doug

The US Constitution is for sale??

For only 43M

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/us...ale/index.html

,

Why does this have to involve a blockchain? You could simply form an LLC and have people put in cash and vote on what they want done and what/when to buy and sell.

Personally, if I own some collectible, I'd want to actually have and hold it in my personal collection, not say to someone I own .000001% of say a T206 Wagner, and then just show them an online image of one I can claim to own a piece of. That isn't collecting, that is investing. And quite frankly, given all the drama and known issues in this hobby, especially the allegations and rumors surrounding many of the dealers, AHs, TPGs, and card doctors/restorers that work in and around it, I'm not so sure this is the proper vehicle to use and rely on for long term investment purposes for most people.

The investment/stock markets are protected by specific laws, and groups like the SEC. Advisors and sellers of typical investment products (stocks, bonds, etc.) generally have to be trained, licensed and are subject to independent oversight. They all have to abide by similar rules and standards that they do not simply decide upon and set themselves. Even the opinions given on a publicly traded company's financial statements can only be rendered by completely independent CPAs/CPA firms, using a single, unique set of established standards that ALL CPAs and CPA firms have to explicitly follow, all CPAs must engage in ongoing professional education every year to maintain their licenses, and also every CPA firm rendering such opinions must allow others from the industry to periodically come in and review their records, systems, and work to ensure they are abiding by the strict rules and standards set for them to render their opinions. Meanwhile, try going and asking a TPG why in their opinion your card only got a 3 instead of a 4 grade, or why one TPG's opinion on a card can be so different from another's. You can't get TPGs to consistently agree to one set of grading standards among themselves, and exactly what training and education do TPG graders even have to go through? And the value of investments, such as stocks, should be based solely on the attributes and financials of the underlying company who's shares are being bought and sold, not also somewhat affected by or even partially dependent upon which CPA firm rendered an opinion on that company's financial statement. So if we are going to be forced to treat cards like investments, shouldn't their value also be based solely on the underlying attributes and condition of the cards, and not affected whatsoever by which TPG graded and rendered an opinion on them? That makes sense to me!

So, it would also seem to me that if we are really going to have our hobby turned into an investment vehicle, whether we like/want it or not, we should start making sure that more appropriate rules, regulations, consistent standards, and oversight of those in and servicing are hobby....errr, investment industry, are being enacted and put in place. Otherwise, we're all just potential marks to be taken advantage of at some point by those that seem to be currently controlling and running our hobby. But honestly, it is probably way too late for the actual collectors/hobbyists to have any hopes of ever reigning in the individuals and companies currently controlling and running things, and simply more interested in lining their pockets. One can always hope though...............

A copy of......this ain't a Nic Cage movie. ;)

Aren't pretty much all politicians for sale? So why not the Constitution? :D

Because the writers envisioned something different for the future, and it isn't the pile of dog turds in government today, that's why not the Constitution.

I was joking, at least about my second question.....did you not see the smiley face?

I can’t think of much else I’d want to do less than something like this.

Yah, what could possibly go wrong in a sportscard buying syndicate?

If fractional shares can be had for less based on OC, PD and ST qualifiers attached to them, then I am in!! :D

So I get the part where we all get the privilege of paying for fractional ownership but as has been asked numerous times, which of the fractional owners takes possession of the card? If there is truly no central person or persons controlling the company who takes possession and assures the safety of the card?

Seems very sketchy to me and fraught with potential for threats of litigation but at the least lots of disagreements and disappointments. Hard enough to be in accord with a spouse imagine how many disgruntled owners there will be in situation like this?

Who decides what to buy and what to pay, or when and what to sell, and through what venue, and for how much? I wouldn't be comfortable delegating all that control to someone and at the same time if everyone votes on everything it would seem unworkable.

:p:p:p:p:p:p laughing all the way...!

Peter - I think the idea is to have liquidity for the fractional ownership. You can buy/sell the fractional ownership but the goal is to make sure you're not the last group holding the fractional ownership if/when the cardboard Ponzi scheme collapses.

Ok, I shouldn't call it a cardboard Ponzi scheme because I'm ignorant to the innerworkings of this type of "investment". However, I don't want any part of it unless I'm on the ground floor when the fractional ownership is being purchased so that I can sell my fractional shares at a profit and can spend those profits on cardboard that I can hold in my hands. Either that or be voted the dude that holds on to the asset.

I did quite well with nba top shot last year. I knew it was a speculative bubble and sold high before it all crashed


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Much like the other fractional platforms, the group would vote on what to buy and when to sell and the profits could either be put into the treasury to buy more cards/memorabilia or distributed as dividends to the groups all based on what is decided by the voting process .


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For clarification:

If the price of the asset increases, does the price of the "token" increase with the asset increase?

The assumption is that the "token" can be purchased or sold at anytime and the value of the "token" is set by the voting "token" holders. Is that correct?

How long does it typically take to buy/sell a token? An assumption is that there needs to be a "market" (buyers/sellers) of the "token" in order to transact and if there is nobody willing to purchase the "token", then you're just stuck with it. Is that about right?

So under that structure, why would I trust my money to the collective (or majority) wisdom of this group? Presumably it would attract people with substantial means but having a lot of money doesn't guarantee anything about being a good card investor.

PS wasn't Evan Mathis involved in some venture like this except with more centralized decisionmaking?

What a total bunch of BS baloney.

Ok


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Sports Card DAO
 

No guarantees with any investment and if someone does give u a guarantee u gotta run lol. The idea with this is that the collective are smart investors. For example a sports card DAO can be done on an invite only basis to high end collectors to make sure that there is good decision making vs opening it to the general public

Not sure which one Mathis was involved but there are a few centralized ones right now that don’t have any transparency


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Pretty much correct except the value of the token is set by the market and how much someone is willing to pay. If the DAO takes off and has a great portfolio, theoretically the value should go up.
This is assuming it’s a public DAO. If it’s a private DAO that’s invite only, the collective decides on the rules of how/when tokens can be resold


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I can imagine though that a group of high powered guys would not easily come to a consensus. And I don't know how many transactions you're contemplating but it seems as a practical matter you wouldn't want too many, I mean are you going to convene a zoom call every time a catalogue comes out?

Sports Card DAO
 

They wouldn’t have a choice. They vote on the proposals and if the proposal reaches a predetermined threshold also voted on the group during the governance process, it passes.
The debates before the vote would be interesting though. I’d pay just to be a fly on the wall in one of those.

All communication takes place on a Discord Server which is like a permanent chat room so you don’t need to set up a formal call.
When setting up a DAO, best practice dictates creating a terms of reference on how to create and put forward proposals and debate them before a formal vote.


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Flipping a card for any money isn't what I was referring to.
Google ..Flipping cards in the early 20th century..

Oh Haha! I’m 41 I flipped as a kid lol


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Out of my league, but DISCORD server seems an ironic name.

Interesting topic, I guess my principal concern would be I don't think having a lot of money always translates into investing wisdom in the card world; from what I've seen guys with a lot of money often just pay what it takes to win and are not very sophisticated or price savvy about it.

Most of the smart money was in credit default swaps in the late aughts.

I think it was Bukowski that said "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.” My corollary is that you can never go wrong heading in the opposite direction of a pack of supposedly smart people telling each other just how smart they are.

Yes, we all know how high end investors always win in the market

I like the idea but have some concerns about the mechanics.

That put a chuckle in the gut. :p


Edited to add - my gut says no, but the greedy human part of me wants in. I'm not at NO, but I'm definitely not at YES, either.

I’m actually enjoying the learning that I’m doing about it and the conversation here is sparking questions and different avenues to continue learning. New tech and ideas are always questioned at first as they should be. I mean if Net54 existed when ebay came out, we would’ve had some people saying it would change the card industry, some people who were interested and wanted to learn more and others who thought it was a scam and disaster that would never catch on lol.


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Yes, they mocked Galileo too, and imprisoned him. Resistance to new ideas is human nature. As Schopenhauer said, I think it was him, all truths go through three stages. First, they are ridiculed. Then, they are violently opposed. Finally, they are accepted as self-evident. End of pretentious post.

That said, I find this investment vehicle dubious LOL.

This whole NFT thing has always seemed familiar to me. And it finally dawned on me what it reminded me of: the dot-com bubble, something I experienced from the inside when I worked in telecom manufacturing. The internet was the next big thing and anyone with a plausible sounding idea could find venture capital money to fund the development and get it to market long enough for the IPO (where the VCs cashed out.) Then all the retail investors watched the stock double and split, double and split even while the underlying company was slowly bleeding to death. In the brick and mortar world, we buit networking equipment like it was going out of style and couldn't get fiber in the ground fast enough.

It was all good times. Until it wasn't. I hung on in the industry for another decade, surviving annual layoffs long enough to watch my stock options expire because they never got within a country mile of the strike price. Finally, I left for the relative stability of oil and gas industry.

Remember the Sock Puppet, mascot for pets.com?

https://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/gall..._puppet.gi.jpg

Pets.com was founded in November of 1998 and was liquidated exactly two years later.

And how much you want to bet that it is the same Silicon Valley VC crowd that pumped and dumped dot-com running the same playbook here with NFTs.

It’s exactly the same. Some will be pets.com and some will be Amazon.com. If I knew which would be which I would be a billionaire lol


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When I first saw this thread, I didn't have my glasses and thought it was "Sports card tao". I thought you all were discussing the philosophical way to collect baseball cards, which it turns out, you are. I heard Bukowski didn't like the Mickey Rourke movie. I thought it was pretty good. I'll have to stay with tangible cards.

Ok...once more with feeling...Which of the fractional owners posses or has access to said purchases? Is that up for a vote too?

This is the kind of shit that in my humble opinion is ruining the hobby.
The more money and "investors" that enter the hobby, the worse off it becomes.
In fact, I can't see anyone successfully arguing that.
Shilling, card doctors, cracked slabs, fake autographs... these detriments to the hobby only INCREASE as prices go up, and NEVER the other way around. lol
Ask yourself this honest question.... If EVERY card tomorrow was valued at $1 dollar, and all the "investors" faded away instantly, how much fraud would there be in the hobby?.... Literally none.

I care about COLLECTING when it comes to cards and memorabilia, and nothing else, and a lot of it is about preserving items and serving as custodian so that future collectors can also enjoy them.

It's not about trying to make money and profit off of what is a "hobby" for me, but to each his own I guess.

That's the thing, Brent. It is not a hobby to many that are in it now. It is just trying to make a quick buck.
I would collect even more if everything were a buck! And then the foiks who ONLY see dollar signs would leave. I, and many on this forum, would be happy.
.

Yes!

Sometimes I wish that baseball would have another crippling strike, maybe some more scandals with it's popularity plummeting. This would cause investors in BB cards to abandon the market. Leaving it to collectors.

A man can dream! :)

Yes, there would be put forth proposals by the group on what to do and that would be voted on. The most likely scenario would be to work with one of the vault companies and store it in there but that’s up to the collective to decide


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I see what ur saying. I look at it like fine art. If you want to collect or invest there is something for you in it.


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It's interesting you point to the dot-com bubble as a comparison. While a handful of companies survived, the vast majority collapsed, with trillions of dollars lost. I think cryptocurrencies, nfts and other such block-chain tecnologies will follow the same trajectory. I don't see the value in something where only a small percentage of the population is interested, and there is no barrier to creating parallel ventures (how many crypto coins are there now anyway?) I wish you luck with this venture, but I haven't been persuaded by your arguments in this thread.

I may have some very good news for you...

That's the thing, Brent. If all cards were valued at $1, then we wouldn't have a National Convention, local card shops and shows, Net54, supplies for displaying and preserving our collections, access to other collectors to buy-sell-trade with, and all the other venues we now routinely use to build our collections. Without the money factor, many people are just not interested. It's no coincidence that the rise of many of the things mentioned above paralleled the rising value of sportscards. I'm sure there are plenty of other things to collect - old buttons, matchbook covers, milk bottles, Slurpee cups, cigarette butts, rusty nails, etc., that the 'investors' have not infiltrated. And the other thing with devalued cards, many of them would just be thrown out - there would be no new 'finds' as they would be sent straight to the dump.

Money in the hobby is not all bad.

And I'm a collector, just one that has learned to take the good with the bad as far as money entering the hobby.

It's an intriguing concept, though seems more like a game than collecting.

However, my key question is: Is a "pure democracy" is a good investment strategy? I would imagine not.

Per the OP the group would be to have group of cards, so essentially you would need to join the group, commit to financing before evening knowing exactly what the group would be elect to purchase. Imagine joining expecting to purchase a high grade Ruths/Cobbs and getting stuck with some modern basketball patch cards instead.

Hey Everybody, loving this conversation and questions (both positive and negative lol). Just as an update, the DAO has been created as a closed DAO with some really great members. I wont say who they are but if they want to disclose then that is their choice. Let's keep this convo going though as its a really interesting topic and one that will continue to evolve as this space evolves.

Pokeman, Lady Gaga concert-used swatch card

Exactly.

Endlessly fascinating when some people can't see all the factors on both sides of this coin. And the focus on only the negative just resonates so unhealthily

+1 and amen to that, Leon.

And here they have been telling me that Rome was not built in a day! Proof now that it could have been!

It's great, if the DAO is buying Your cards at the top of the market.

Fire, aim, ready.

For someone starting a conversation and still doing your research, you seem to have a lot of insider information.

I guess we can assume Gary Vee isn't one, since we know that guy can't keep his cakehole shut.

I have to say that I am bit shocked that us curmudgeons are commenting more than the swells over at Blowout.

I wonder how the Blowout unopened case mutual fund is doing. I thought that signaled the top of the market, but it still ran for a year after that.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1351664

At 1PM yesterday he is still researching and 24 hours later he has not only formed it but recruited significant members. Very impressive 24 hour period, don't ya think?

At the very least it feels like he has not been 100% upfront. Maybe his opening post should have stated that he was about to form this and had significant interest. As an investor I like full disclosure but maybe that is a silly concept these days.

This is not for me for other reasons but it is absolutely not for me for the way it was presented.

Was just reading a story online how another group is supposedly trying to create a Blockbuster DAO now, and how if they are successful, some feel they will be able to eventually take out Netfix.

This DAO concept sounds like something the government will eventually come back at. Forming any group for investing like this should require some form of legal entity election (partnership, LLC, corporation) it seems, and these "tokens" sound like a type of substitute for, but similar to, owning shares of stock or partnership units in the formal, traditional entries. And in the case of a DAO formed to invest in cards, along with questions that have already been asked about who will make actual buy/sell decisions, or physically hold the cards, what about what the tax treatment is and how it is handled and reported by the DAO and the "token" owners if a card bought by the DAO is subsequently sold. Or what is the tax treatment and how is it handled and reported if a "token" owner decides they want out of the DAO and decides to sell their "tokens" to someone else, or will they even be allowed to do that?

I would most definitely want to completely review and read through every page of all documents related to the formation and all ongoing operational aspects of any DAO I was even thinking about getting into. I also wonder if there couldn't be a lot of additional, ongoing costs and fees such an investing vehicle will create for the owners. And another curious question(s) I'd have is if everyone truly has an equal say on things based on what they paid in to the DAO, or do maybe some who formed and set up the DAO get extra "tokens" for their efforts in setting things up, or get to buy "tokens" at a reduced cost for those efforts and service and/or receive more "tokens" or discounts in acquiring them going forward for providing managing type services to the DAO, on an ongoing basis, and so on. I have always been a little suspicious by nature, and can't help but think that some parties doing these DAOs are profiting from them in some manner at everyone else's expense.