PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns
 

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

Well that’s a start.

Rhetorical question, but why have you been selling them for at least a decade?

Relatedly, I guess you lied two years ago when you told me and Leon that Gary had pretty much retired. According to what you told us, he only "graded" a card "once in a while." Ha.

and another question....
 

Have all Moser related cards been removed from the current ongoing auction?

Do you believe anything this man says at this point?

nope

I think this line alone makes it pretty clear how quickly this is all moving.

Ouch. You said you would do this 3 weeks ago but then the scam continues. Why is that? You have a long history of blowing smoke up peoples a***

While I appreciate what you are trying to do, I gave you a pass 3 weeks ago. Then you let it continue until your are pretty much forced to just today?

Personally, I hope you get sued by PSA.

I will reserve the right to change my opinion of you but as for now, you are neck deep in quicksand my handsome friend and the play stands as called on the field. Good Luck Brent Mastro.

Sounds like they are getting ready to throw Moser under the bus and save their own asses.

Sounds like an attorney has been hired.

And PSA. I was sort of wondering who would be sacrificed to keep them going. My money was on some poor new hire grader - yet another reason why I almost never bet on anything. (Of course, it's not over yet... )

Vault
 

Wondering how many people are thinking it might me a good idea to empty the “vault” about now...

Where’s the guy who was laying 4:1?

Do you know Gary Moser? - "Yes"
Do you accept consignments from Gary Moser? - "Yes"

Are there any Moser consigned cards in the current auction?
Did you submit cards to any TPGs on behalf of Gary Moser?
Did you accept bids from Gary Moser?
If so, did you ever cross check items Gary Moser won against items he consigned?
Did you buy cards on your account, and then resell them in your own auctions?
If so, was that disclosed in the auctions?

This is a good start, I reserve the right to ask additional follow ups depending on the answers.

Good start with those questions. Not sure we can handle the truth but I think we know what it is

[QUOTE=Brent Huigens; We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light...[/QUOTE]

1. “Presently Working with PSA”...
That is hardly new news. You’ve been “working” with them for a long time.

2. “Ensure all affected cards are brought to light”...
What a joke! It’s a tad late for that. The virus has spread way beyond PWCC’s control or any means that law enforcement can employ to contain them all. They are in circulation now, and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of bogus cards in PSA slabs that will never be fully accounted for.

Unless PSA goes down with you, these cards will continue to be sold and traded at a premium, to unknowing innocent victims. You let the cat out of the bag, and it is never coming back in.

How will you "ensure that all affected cards are brought to light"? Will you be releasing a list of ALL cards you have sold connected to Gary Moser, so that the present owners of these cards can determine if they have been altered?

This entire situation looks incredibly dire.

What about the PSA 6.5, T206 Jennings AB 460 that is in your current auction. That used to sit in a PSA 4 case and they have confirmed on blowout that it has been altered (the mark under his armpit) and based on another thread it appears it is a Moser card; at least it was submitted by moser to PSA after it was altered.

Let’s Start by removing the cards in your current auction that are known to be altered and/or ”Mosered”

Cancel the entire auction, and sell your vaults to cover the losses.

I don't know. It feels, to me, that they are partnering up with PSA as they work with law enforcement together. They will claim ignorance to the whole thing and blame Moser for doing all the fraud on his own. Like you, I almost never bet on anything though. ;)

Let’s make a note of whether that card is indeed removed. If that auction is terminated, then maybe that’s a tiny first step in the right direction.

I guess that's one theory...

They do not appear to have published their apology on the PSA website.

I haven't been able to find any posts from them in the Collectors Universe forum. That forum overall is much less active than here or Blowout, but I'm pretty sure they've posted there before. Maybe I'm just missing it, if someone can find it let me know and I'll revise this.

I don't see any PWCC banners anywhere on the PSA site. Pretty sure they used to be there.

I don't see any PWCC banners on the VCP site, or in the "Auction want list" section on the home page. Pretty sure they used to be there.

I imagine eBay made them take down the banners this weekend. Apparently they couldn’t wait until July 4th weekend to do it.

:d:d:d

Too late

Like a kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar...

Of course you are sorry, you got caught. Own it...

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It's funny reading this thread with the PWCC banner showing up at the top.

The list
 

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

"WE'RE GONNA NEED A BIGGER LIST!" CaptainSpaulding on BO says that he has another 16 submissions tied to this scandal.

Brent, how do you like my new PSA slogan: "IN ON IT OR IMPOTENT?"

That's so sweet of him after polluting the hobby with altered cards for a decade and a half or however long it's been.

Why not just let bygones be bygones and we'll all get along, eh?

I have a few questions for Mr. Huigens:

1) Which law enforcement agency was contacted? Did PWCC contact this agency?
2) When was it contacted or a case opened? Who's the name of the individual on the case?
3) Is there any proof of this?

My main concern is that PWCC didn't look over these cards and have questions before auction? What auction house doesn't inspect the items to a) make sure they're not stolen and b) not damaged or altered prior? An investigator who has some knowledge of the Hobby and auction houses and grading companies are going to have some questions that might be very difficult for PWCC to answer.

This also opens up legitimate concerns about the practices of PSA.

Brent states that he personally inspects EVERY CARD VALUED AT $250 OR OVER to consider them for his stickers.

With due respect that's not the issue. He probably doesn't know enough about cards to spot Moser's artistry. The point is he knew very well what Moser does, and knowingly took his altered cards to sell. And maybe even submitted some for him. And maybe the partnership went even beyond that.

The flat out lie to me (and Leon) that Moser was essentially out of the business two or three years ago really infuriates me, in case you can't tell.

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

I'd bet my house that internet detectives will find cards missing from any list they provide unless its a giant .csv file of every card ever sold.

Brent has been fencing cards for up to 10 different revealed scammers. I would like to see all of those on the list too (PSA,BGS). I would like those companies to COMPLETELY DECERTIFY ALL THOSE NUMBERS.

You don't get what you don't ask for.

David as you've likely seen, on the modern side there are similar threads on known trimmers and PWCC on BO.

You might blow up a few collections. Or more than a few.

Collateral Damage; you think everyone will know at that point? All collectors will know.

A lot of collectors are just in it for the money and ego though, at the high end of things. Not all of course.

PSA has a very tough needle to thread, on the one hand the people who hate altered cards and are livid are going to demand major change; on the other hand people with major bucks tied up in collections may resist that change if it means taking away some of their high grade cards.

They can turn them in now or see their value plummet in 6 months.

I think ultimately for many of these folks when push comes to shove the flip is going to trump the card.

Probably the most poetic post I've seen here. Bravo.

Wow those guys on the PSA board are clueless. They've read about 3 total posts and not the 20+ threads on this scam and are defending PWCC... but when the place is moderated the way it's moderated, no surprise.
"They feed me dirt and keep me in the dark!"

Happens here all the time John. People intentionally don't inform themselves, then pontificate.

I may be in the minority, but I hope Brent / PSA rebounds from this and criminal charges will be pressed on the card docs. People will be angry if this is the result because of the smoking gun from culpability, but I hope the hobby burns through this hot topic we are facing. punitive consequences will be defined and the maturity of our hobby’s use of tech/social media (thanks to our “super sleuths”) will act as a deterrent and make us stronger from this.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t disagree with the majority, but would be happy with realistic expectations.

All depends......
 

Should the day come that substance triumphs over form and to hold value vintage high-grade cards will have to pass muster under a new kind of grading service that makes use of what technology can (in a cost-effective manner) reveal with regard to alterations, the flip might not triumph. I get it that such a scenario might be wishful thinking. However, I can see a path how it can come about -- a new grading service comes into being employing such technology while accompanied by a pronounced and well-run marketing campaign which exposes the significant likelihood that high-grade vintage cards with old flips are altered. Or maybe even SGC could bring it about it they ever get their act together and are willing to spend the bucks and engage the right marketing experts, while at the same time investing in such technology. This is not the hobby of yesteryear where cards sold for tens or hundreds of dollars, and thousand dollar cards were anomalies. We are now routinely in 5, 6 and 7 figure category, and it is about time our evaluation methods caught up.

How many posts have there been that the net54 community is only a very small subset of the collecting community, and that what is common knowledge on this Board is not generally known outside it. Well, change that reality and then there might (finally) be the real change so many of us are clamoring for.

I serve on a board of trustees and know you never get everything you want.

Has he yet addressed the allegations that the PWCC ebay account was used to buy cards submitted by Moser?

If I can find out the rotten egg at PSA, I can get this passed.

This.

Right. Moser and who else?

Verify then Trust
Court Order Subpoenas and Search Warrants for all electronic communications and records only way to find the truth
Without Above Happening This Will Be Very Difficult to Prove
Who has been submitting the cards that’s the bottom line here

SSDD as in 2016, when it involved shilling and allowing consignors to bid on their own items. The “leopards” have not changed their spots.

Can everyone say Deja Vu?

I guess this means that since people wouldn’t buy into the new “tenets” (i.e. cheating is ok unless you get caught) that they were trying to push/defend, and with their professional reputation badly tarnished plus a possibility of criminal investigations and civil torts a growing reality, they now come out with the kind of statement that should have come out immediately from a truly reputable market maker at the outset.

Clearly this is another example of a recurring business strategy/practice with this market maker; When you find you cannot get away with unethical actions, then feign victimhood and do whatever you have to do to save your own skin.

And not a mention, not even a denial, of the allegations that accuse them of being directly involved in the purchase of cards that were then supposedly altered, re-subbed and then resold?

Those who walked away from this market maker in 2016 were the smart ones.

Integrity will ALWAYS matter!

Other known card doctors getting cards past the Third Party Grading services and listing through PWCC, Probstein, etc. to cover their tracks:

Bill Sliheet - SSIGuy (Superior Sports Investments)
Samir Sliheet - Superior Sports Investments
Nate Nichols - affiliated with the Dallas area BGS trimmers
Will Jaimet - Heroes of Sport, submitter to PWCC
Gary Moser - eBay whitman111 vintage cards dating back to 1880s consigned to PWCC after grading by PSA
Eric Bitz - Buynicecards
Brian Deer- isellurcards (formerly Bristol Collectibles)
Kevin Burge- longtime modern card dealer
Brent Huigens
Dick Towle - Gone With the Stain
Robert Block - longtime BGS trimmer
Steve Tormollan

This guy is FUNNY! Like that could ever happen...

The other big vintage doctors have not been outed over there.

Heavy Circumstantial Evidence: BGS giving preferential grades to WJCII (Joe Clemons), former employee
Heavy Circumstantial Evidence: Gabriel Seraf replacing boring patches with SICK MOJO PATCHES

Are any of these docs part of the Net54 community?

Hi Peter - yes, I've seen those. I've pretty much read every post of every relevant thread. I contributed a very small amount of the research to find original sales of some of the cards. Big kudos to those other blowout guys, though - they deserve all the credit.

I'm highly skeptical that an entire list will ever be produced, and here are a couple reasons why.

#1 - Money. Neither PWCC or PSA is going to want to refund on these cards. I think PWCC will selectively try and take the hit, but there are very likely going to be thousands of cards just from Moser. Who knows what else is out there, but I think it's pretty safe to assume there is way more than we've seen. As good as those Blowout guys are, they just don't have enough info to find it all and the Moser relationship alone goes back 7-8 years AT LEAST. That's not the only one out there, we just don't have great proof of others yet but I would imagine they are out there. I just don't believe PWCC will be able to take the hit across all the cards by themselves, so a flip numbers release is a low probability event. I don't see any way PSA agrees to admit they missed anything. As a public company, their ONLY real course of action is to defend their graders. Any flip number release from them is a no probability event. Get used to these words - "within tolerance", as that will be the key phrase. So then, is PWCC going to sue PSA to force them to contribute? That to me is also a going out of business strategy.

#2 - The Set Registry. I know a lot of people think the Set Registry is one of the reasons we are in this mess, but can you imagine the upheaval there is all of a sudden PSA were to actually decertify a bunch of cards? That's basically an invitation to make the claim for market difference with them, which again I see is a no probability event.

#3 - Data. In order to cross reference anything that comes out, you'd need the consignor and sales data from PWCC, all the submission data from PSA (and/or other TPGs) and all the bidder/sale data from eBay so it could all be cross-checked. There is NO WAY eBay is going to release all that data to anyone, and I don't see PSA releasing submission owner data to anyone. Once again, the public companies aren't going to assist this effort unless they are compelled to do so by a government agency of some kind, which is a fight that could take years and even if they had to do it the public market would NEVER get to see any of it.

So with that as your backdrop, I think the easiest choice is that PSA fights everyone to the death over their grades and backs their graders 100%, PWCC tries to take the financial hit and hopes the weight of lost consignment revenue and refunds for questionable cards doesn't sink them. No way PSA contributes to this, otherwise they are just inviting the refunds to pass over to them. PWCC isn't likely to fight that if they ever want to be able to submit again, otherwise they'd have to sue PSA which is essentially a going out of business plan as well.

There's no clear path here, but ultimately the easiest path seems to be this is PWCCs problem, and everybody else just kind of walks away. That's my take anyway.

Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.

I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?

I've asked the exact same question in multiple threads. Like you, not justifying what happened or defending anyone, I'm just not sure what laws were broken.

Mr. Chairman
 

Along with the altered T206 Jennings," there are at least 245 communists in the State Department!" How can a accurate list of the "doctored cards" be put together?

I believe both wire fraud and mail fraud can be applied if those responsible are not disclosing the alteration and using the internet and/or USPS to sell the card in question. Depending on the volume and aggregate value of the cards involved there also might be a a racketeering/RICO issue.

Negligence. And if they knowingly knew that it was altered...well there’s your crime. Not saying they did but hard to ignore the volume from at least one trimmer.


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I answered you, but maybe you didn't read it. Or maybe I don't count, that's fine lol.

Negligence of this kind is not a legal violation. It’s a civil tort.

Knowingly misrepresenting something to be something that it's not - that's basically the definition of fraud.

Where money is involved, that makes it a crime.

Proving it sufficiently to convict in a court of law, could be a long road. This game is in the early innings still, there's a lot more to come.

Knowledge of the law is not a prerequisite here to pontificating about the law.

Negligence is not a crime.

Thank goodness. I'm an engineer and get all my legal "training" from television. Loved Matlock as a kid.

I was not aware that trimmed or recolored cards meet PSA's criteria for getting numerical grades. And that's the point. If the cards are submitted with full disclosure what was done to them, then that would be fine. But they are being submitted under a guise that such work was not performed, with the intent the cards be eventually purchased by collectors believing they are unaltered.

You see nothing fraudulent in that?

I always liked Columbo myself.

So true.:D

Todd yeah I used to have the patience for it, but I resist the temptation much of the time now.

While what they're doing is unethical, Im not so sure it's against the law. They're representing it as it is certified to be. If (insert any TPG here) says it's a (insert grade here) and they're selling it as such, not sure they're breaking any law. Let me be clear for all. I'm not justifying it, I just don't see how they're legally (key word) misrepresenting it. Wouldn't their defense in court be that they paid for a 3rd party opinion and that third party is supposed to label altered cards as such? That they were expecting the TPG to label it as such?

Didn't you and I have this exact discussion? Or am I losing it? Go read the mail and wire fraud statutes and come back. Don't read RICO, there would be no need for a prosecutor to go there.

See what I mean, Todd? "I'm not so sure it's against the law."