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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
I've been collecting T206 rare backs since the early 1980's. I realize this is anecdotal but based on my experience, I consider BL460 cards and UZIT cards
essentially equal in scarcity. I also realize this is contrary to conventional wisdom. However, the basic difference which makes the BL460 cards somewhat tougher to find breaks down to a numbers game, and that is...……... 1....BL 460 backs were printed only on 350/460 series subjects. Furthermore, only 35 (of the 63 subjects) in this series were printed with the BL460 back. 2....UZIT backs were printed on 28 subjects in the 350/460 series. And theoretically, on all 46 subjects in the 460-only series (to date, 30 of these 46 sub- jects have been confirmed with the UZIT back). http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...eaf460back.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITbk.jpg Some of you will disagree with my premise here. And, that's fine with me. I look forward to a meaningful discussion regarding this subject. TED Z T206 Reference . |
Hi Ted, you might be on to something...I’ve been saying for years that UZIT are even tougher than people think. I’ve been collecting T206 for 25 years, and have owned more Drums and more BL 460’s than I have Uzits.
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I have not been collecting nearly as long as either of you, and I certainly don’t have the same experience, but as someone who has been actively acquiring rare backs over the last two years, I feel like I come across Uzits more often than BL 460s (and Drums less than both). So I don’t which is more rare, but I feel it is harder to acquire a Drum than a BL 460, and a BL 460 is harder to acquire than an Uzit. Meanwhile, I think the Uzit back is cooler than both
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Is it true that Uzits were only produced in New York over a three week period? I read that somewhere (or at least I thought I did) in my hobby travels.
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From my research BL460 is much more scarce than Uzit, but Uzit and Drum are closer than people will believe.
For what it's worth my research shows 77 graded BL460s, 218 Drum, and 235 Uzits. My data is several months old. |
That is incredible! According to the PSA Pop Report there are only 111 graded Uzits and 113 graded Drums of all T206 subjects in existance!
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I think he means “his research shows”, not that he literally has...! :p
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oops lol. I’ve been pretty on top of listings the last 15 months. I’ve seen only a couple of each but definitely more Uzit than BL460 or Drum
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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
OK guys here's what the numbers (graded cards = PSA + SGC) tell us...…….
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...eaf460back.jpg > > > > > > 79 graded cards / 28 confirmed subjects = 2.8 BL460's per subject (average) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITbk.jpg> > > > > > 177 graded cards / 58 confirmed subjects = 3.0 UZIT's per subject (average) Therefore, BL460 cards are just marginally scarcer than UZIT cards. I rest my case. TED Z T206 Reference . |
Ted those numbers are incorrect...what I posted above is several months old, so I'm going to refresh the numbers
TOTAL POP: Broad Leaf 460: 37 PSA + 46 SGC = 83 total Drum: 135 PSA + 88 SGC = 223 total Uzit: 143 PSA + 119 SGC = 262 total TOTAL SUBJECTS: Broad Leaf 460: 28 confirmed Drum: 126 confirmed (I think) Uzit: 58 confirmed PER SUBJECT: Broad Leaf 460: 83/28 = 2.96 Drum 223/126 = 1.77 Uzit 4.52 |
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Mike |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
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Jay We are in agreement with the BROAD LEAF 460 numbers. Yours is 83 and mine is 79 (I deducted 4 because I have 1st hand knowledge that 4 subjects were crossed-over, therefore they appear twice in the Pop Report data). At least that tells me we are reading from the same source. However, your UZIT numbers are way out of whack ! Where the heck did you get "262" ? ? Incidentally, 151 - DRUM's have been confirmed. TED Z T206 Reference . |
t206resource has 153 Drums confirmed.
http://t206resource.com/Drum%20350%20Checklist.html |
Pat
Resource claims Chase (blue portrait) and Mathewson (dark cap) are "confirmed" with DRUM....well let's see some scans to verify this is true ? ? It's their same type of claims that Ames is confirmed with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT. Or, their claims that Chance (batting), Bergen (catching), Murray (portrait), Overall (blue sky) are "confirmed" with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42. Sorry, but these claims are "fake news" ! TED Z T206 Reference . |
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These are where my numbers are coming from. Plus, on my spreadsheet (again admittedly data is a few months old) I have 235 cards individually attributed to players.
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Doing some spreadsheet manipulation...
Of the 28 confirmed BL460s, 19 (67.8%) have a combined population of 1, 2, or 3. Highest pop BL460 is a tie between Rucker pitching and Willis throwing with 6. Of the 58 confirmed Uzits, 25 (43.1%) have a combined population of 1, 2, or 3. Highest pop Uzit is at tie between Cobb bat off, Jennings both hands, and Merkle throwing with 12. |
Jay
I checked-out the data for every UZIT subject (58) listed inn both PSA and SGC. My combined total for PSA and SGC resulted in 178 graded cards. I subtracted the PSA Herzog from this total since he was reported twice. I don't know where those numbers you have came from ? ? TED Z . |
Those are the pop reports sorted by back...and then the total of all the data in the column as added/reported by the grading company. If you're adding up individually perhaps you're missing cards that are unattributed to a specific pose. If I add up all the cards I have attributed to players I get 235. With the 235 I am definitely not double counting.
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Gonna try a cut and paste so it might get ugly...
Abbaticchio Ed Blue Sleeves 1 Ames Red Hands above Head 0 Ball Neal Cleveland 0 Bell George Follow Thru 1 Berger Heinie 7 Bradley Bill Batting 2 Bridwell Al Cap 0 Burch Al Fielding 3 Camnitz Howie Arm at Side 0 Camnitz Howie Hands Over Head 0 Chase Hal Holding Trophy 6 Cobb Ty Bat off Shoulder 12 Conroy Wid Batting 3 Crandall Doc Cap 2 Crawford Sam Batting 5 Frill John 1 Geyer Rube 3 Herzog Buck Boston 2 Hummell John 1 Jennings Hughie One Hand Shows 2 Jennings Hughie Both Hands Show 12 Jordan Tim Batting 8 Lajoie Nap Batting 3 Lake Joe Ball 1 Lake Joe No Ball 8 Latham Arlie 10 Leach Tommy Fielding 6 Leifield Lefty Batting 3 Manning Rube Pitching 5 Marquard Rube Pitching 5 McGraw John Portrait with Cap 2 McQuillan George Batting 9 Merkle Fred Throwing 12 Mullin George Batting 6 Murray Red Portrait 1 Oldring Rube Batting 2 Overall Orval Hands at Waist 1 Overall Orval Hands Face Level 2 Pelty Barney Vertical 4 Pfeister Jake Throwing 6 Schaefer Germany Washington 5 Schlei Admiral Batting 5 Schlei Admiral Portrait 6 Schulte Wildfire Back View 0 Seymour Cy Portrait 10 Sheckard Jimmy Glove Showing 1 Smith Frank Chicago & Boston 7 Smith Happy 1 Steinfeldt Harry Batting 8 Tinker Joe Bat on Shoulder 1 Tinker Joe Bat off Shoulder 1 Wagner Heinie Bat on Rt Shoulder 8 White Doc Throwing 2 Wilhelm Kaiser Batting 4 Willetts Ed Willets 4 Willis Vic Batting 5 Wiltse Hooks Portrait with Cap 3 Wiltse Hooks Pitching 7 TOTAL: 235 |
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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
Hey Pat
Looks like you stayed up till 1 AM in the morning searching thru my 6896 posts trying to find something negative to "slam" me with. This is not the 1st time you have resorted to this type of "negative" posts here against me. You have done this numerous times over the past years. I have never INITIATED negative posts against you. However, I have responded to your's. As Billy Joel once said...... "I DIDN'T START THIS FIRE" ! For whatever reason(s), you seem to have a problem with me. Well, just email me and we can discuss whatever privately online. I'm an easy going guy and I'm sure we can resolve our differences privately. Anyway, your time would be better spent informing your buddies at T206resource that they are misleading T206 collectors by claiming the following cards are confirmed..... Ames (hands above head) with AB 460 Ames (hands above head) with UZIT Chance (batting) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Bergen (catching) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Murray (portrait) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Overall (blue sky) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Hey guy, I am not the only one on this forum that has told them of these errors in their listings. Incidentally, that old post of mine regarding the blue Chase with a DRUM back was a mistake. I subsequently corrected it. I have been looking for this DRUM card since the mid-1980's to complete my blue Chase sub-set...… http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uplcate75x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LxCOxCYx25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...6DRUMx50bx.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
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No Ted I didn't stay up all night searching your posts. You responded to Jay that you had the number of confirmed Drums at 151 and I responded that t206 research had the number at 153. When you made your fake news comment (you could have said error or mistake) it did piss me off and I was pretty sure they weren't the first to confirm Chase (blue portrait) and Matty (dark cap) so I started with the confirmed Drum list in your reference thread to see if I could find who might have confirmed them. In that post you provided this link http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90139 which led to this link https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/net5...1.html#p266235 this is the thread that you confirmed the Chase in and it took me about five minutes in all to find it. Maybe you don't think you initiated a negative post with your fake news comment but I do. I don't think I've ever initiated a negative post against you. I do admit that I have several times in response to one of yours but if I did point it out and I will apologize here in this thread. |
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Around 1990, I received a letter from an old time collector who was selling off his collection. Among the offerings was this group of 27 Uzits which he was asking $1250 for, or about $46 a card. I passed. The reason I did so- and are you ready for this- I felt it would be too difficult to resell such a large group, and that I would end up getting stuck with a bunch of them.
I equate my decision to pass with Decca Records decision to pass on the Beatles after their January, 1962 audition because, in their reasoning, who would want to listen to a rock-and-roll guitar band? The point is not to wallow in my stupidity but to suggest that it would be virtually impossible to put together a group of 27 Broadleaf 460's in a lifetime, or nearly impossible for sure. And although it's a small sample, it's enough to tell me that BL 460's are much more difficult to acquire than Uzits. |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
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Hi Barry I have to chuckle over your..... "but to suggest that it would be virtually impossible to put together a group of 27 Broadleaf 460's in a lifetime, or nearly impossible for sure.". Would you say the same (or even "absolutely impossible") in finding a group of 51 - DRUM's ? From one collection in 2009, Ron Oser and I counted out 51 cards with DRUM backs....43 were T206's and 8 were T205's. We had adjacent booths at the Philly Show and Ron brought them over to me, and we sat there like two kids in a candy store sorting out these cards from a T206 find. So, my point here is that "a group of 27 Broadleaf 460's in a lifetime" is far from an impossible achievement. Thanks for sharing your story with us....very interesting. TED Z T206 Reference . |
Barry,
This story is awesome. I'm inclined to agree with your reasoning but a motivated collector with a lot of money can sometimes achieve some crazy results. Ted, what do you think of my numbers? |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
Pat
You misconstrued my "fake news" comment. It absolutely was NOT directed at you. I was referring to T206Resource's mis-leading the T206 collector's by claiming that these cards have been confirmed...…NOT TRUE ! Ames (hands above head) with AB 460 Ames (hands above head) with UZIT Chance (batting) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Bergen (catching) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Murray (portrait) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Overall (blue sky) with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 That there is the "fake news" which I was referring to. OK, enough of that. In your current thread, I had an idea by posting my Tom Jones cards that would help your theory regarding the Elite 11 with respect to their PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG back printings. So, I posted these cards for you...... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0xP350xSov.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0xP350xSov.jpg And, these cards proved to be of help. I was happy to read your response...... Quote:
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Jay, your list implies there is only one (1) Tinker Bat Off Uzit, but according to pop reports, this is one of four (although one may be a crossover). Sorry, couldn’t help it!
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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
Jay
I started counting from your list and stopped when I saw Crandall with a TWO besides it. Crandall is an "Exclusive 12" subject. I have been closely tracking these 12 cards for years. This Crandall / UZIT is a unique card. It should have a ONE next to it. Furthermore, the Cobb (bat off shoulder) number of 12 is ridiculous. The last time I checked the Pop Report data on this card it was a TEN. And, since that number includes at least two RE-GRADES, the real number should be an EIGHT. I'm sorry, but there is something wrong with a lot of your numbers. Abbaticchio Ed Blue Sleeves 1 Ames Red Hands above Head 0 Ball Neal Cleveland 0 Bell George Follow Thru 1 Berger Heinie 7 Bradley Bill Batting 2 Bridwell Al Cap 0 Burch Al Fielding 3 Camnitz Howie Arm at Side 0 Camnitz Howie Hands Over Head 0 Chase Hal Holding Trophy 6 Cobb Ty Bat off Shoulder 12 Conroy Wid Batting 3 Crandall Doc Cap 2 ---------------------------------------- Furthermore......Herzog (Boston) with a 2 This was originally my card (Graded SGC 45). Sold it to David Hall and he had it re-graded (PSA 3). It's a unique card, and should have a ONE. There are a number of UZIT's in your list that I question their numbers. To be frank with you, I'm tired of debating this. I have double-checked my count with the SGC and PSA listings regarding these 58 cards with UZIT backs; and, again I have arrived at a number of 179 (- 2) = 177. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Ted- I remember that collection with 51 Drums. I guess you're right, anything is possible. But it still is unlikely.
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I see those 3 on sgc...since Tinker has both a bat on and off Uzit pose, I couldn't attribute which of those 3 went to which pose count so I left them off. Alas if only pop reports were perfect. I did the best I could with the available data! |
great info everyone....
I also feel the uzit is underrated and about as difficult as drum......just my observations with no hard data.....Jay....WOW! :eek:
KEEP UP THE GREAT RESEARCH! love to see your numbers.... Pat and Ted.....you are both T206 genius and love reading your data/theories both of you....I hate to see either one of you at any odds...both just incredible insight!:) and I definitely can see both of your sides on a lot of issues....love the competition, you guys "feed" off each other, and we all benefit to both of your research(and everyone else) just want to say much respect to all your hard work of all of you....Ryan, you have really become an expert:)! bl 460 super rare ....uzit rare..... and drum rare... uzit does not get the love as much:confused: great buy uzits now imho |
Barry...
Really enjoyed your story.....you are a true legend and I wish I handled 10% of the T206 you have had ! as you know, Wagner is my dream.....
keep those stories coming my friend |
Hi Johnny, it's always good to hear from you. :) You always bring something positive.
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Sean,
thanks my friend! same back at you! love your focus.....love to hear from you.....your insight is just phenomenal ...... can't wait to chat soon....:)
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Agree Sean, Hi Johnny! How you doing my man? I hope all is well; great to see you posting.
Jay, good point re tinker bat on and bat off and SGC not distinguishing; maybe there are only 2 bat off |
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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
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Hi Ryan My research on these two Tinker / UZIT cards indicates the following...… Bat Off....PSA (1 card)….SGC (2 cards)……..As you noted one of the so-called four is a crossover. Bat On.....PSA (1 card)….SGC (1 card) And, you posted this on another one of my threads. Quote:
And, if you still need a red HINDU, I should have two of them to choose from. TED Z T206 Reference . |
At the risk of wading in to the fray, for all of the 90's and early 00's, I was heavily into rare backs (and still am to a point) and was keeping track of as many combinations as possible from dealers, at shows and at auctions. Over that time, I saw very few Uzits, but saw them in a number of dribs and drabs. I bought both that I could (Stienfeldt and Willis) and sold the Willis through Barry. As far as Broadleaf 460s, I saw them only twice in that 15 year span- once when I bought 2 of the 4-5 one dealer had one Friday night at Ft. Washington (O'Leary and Snodgrass) and sold the O'Leary also through Barry - and a Bender that Sports Cards Plus had in a mailer that I missed out on.
Since then, I have seen marginally more Uzits but more 460's have surfaced than I thought were possible, but it's kind of like comparing California Condors and Whooping Cranes - impossibly scarce compared to the rest of the T206 world. |
great posts everyone...
its these discussions which help us understand the monster a little better:)....Barry, Jay, Sean, Ryan, Ted , Pat , Michael and the others who have posted. great to read your insight and kind words......uzits are a misunderstood animal;)
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I strongly agree that a Uzit at 2k is a better buy than a Drum at 5k given the relative scarcity. If you want a list of Uzits with pop lower than 3, send me a message. |
Are people selling clean Uzits for only 2k? If so, please send me their info.
If you're talking about commons in the PSA/SGC 2-3 range, for example...I think you're looking at 3k+ actually. Luke- weigh in. |
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Lake SGC 30 with a touch of back loss: $2700 Latham PSA 3.5: $3200 Steinfeldt PSA 4: $4000 Hummel (recently discovered combo) SGC A: $6600 My only Uzit is a Wagner that's trimmed but otherwise presentable...was $1400. These are reasonable in line with a 1-2 for $2000-3000. Luke might have been involved in a few of these transactions. |
rats60....
great to hear from you! we need to chat again soon! YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
Jay and Michael....you are exactly spot on with uzit pricing also.... Mike, i'll call you later my friend or tom to shoot the shit.. INCREDIBLE WORK EVERYONE! this is what I'm talking about.....we need these discussions to continue with all rare backs, freaks, cobbs.....discuss trends and observations of the market sales data....where is luke on this??? also so many other experts like adam , chuck, ect ect :) |
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Ted, I think Red Hindus are very underrated and underpriced. My problem is I only want them if they have an HOF front. I will take a common back Drum or BL 460 (brown Lenox and of course brown OM), but strongly prefer an HOF front on all other backs, including Uzits. |
I've never owned an Uzit, BL460 or drum but from my observation in
the time period I've been collecting T206's if someone was on a mission to collect ten of each not caring who was on the front I think the Uzits would be the easiest by far and it would be close between BL460 and Drum for second but I think Drum might actually be the toughest to get to ten with. |
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PSA 2 2250.......5000 PSA 3 3200.......7000 PSA 4 4200.......8500 I have seen clean Uzits sell for +/- 2k. I collect by the back not the grade. So there are PSA 2 or SGC 3 cards that I don't want, but there might be a 1.5 or even A, if the back is nice, that I want. I can send those that i don't want your way if I see them, but if you want nice backs, I am your competition. Most likely these cards are going to be in a public auction anyways. |
I think this was a sleeper lot and someone got a really good deal.
No hall of famers but some pretty nice examples mostly in vg at less than $850 a card. https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...ce?itemid=3717 |
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even back then. |
Great discussion. I think Uzits are available for $2k the same way Drums are available for $5k. If one shows up at that price, whichever one of us who sees it first is going to snap it up. I feel the same about Uzits being under-valued compared to Drums. The last few months probably have been an anomaly with regard to how many Units have shown up for sale. The Hummel was new to the hobby, as were the two that I got from eBay. Could be a little while before we see another Drum or Uzit sell.
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Rats60- you're correct, we have lots of competition, everyone wants nice examples.
I know who won that REA lot...yeah, he did well. happy for him. |
My experience
I’ll limit my comments to the glorious period of time from the early 1980s to the mid 1990s. During that time my dad and I had the amazing experience of buying several complete or near complete T206 sets and many thousands of other T206 cards in raw lots ranging from a few dozen to several hundred. In all, we’ve probably owned at least 5k - maybe even close to 10k T206s at some point - although never at the same time. It sounds impossible now, but at one point average cards cost $1 and even Cobb was under $50.
During those earlier years, many folks didn’t know much or care much about the backs - especially when you purchased a set or a large lot of cards. I can say that Dad or I never found a raw Cobb/Cobb, Brown Lenox, BL460 or drum. While this is a small sample, it’s interesting to note the tougher backs that we’ve found as. 1 brown old mill (probably shouldn’t count this as I saw the image before I bought the lot) 2 Red Hindu 3 Uzits (one was on a Cobb batting!!) And at least 3 of all other back varieties (although Black Lenox, BL350, P42 and Carolina Brights were all probably on “close to 5” end of things). I’m not suggesting from my small sample that we should re-rank rarity, however, it is interesting that I never came across drum or BL460 - and I very rarely even saw them in the raw collections that we didn’t get a chance to buy (in fact, I NEVER saw a BL460 in a raw collection - except for one time, where the seller explicitly knew it was there and made sure to say as much. |
Hi Scott- 5,000-10,000 cards is not a small sample IMO. I think that's a large enough number to make a lot of determinations regarding what is scarce and what is not.
I also probably handled somewhere around 10,000 T206, some unsearched from original collections, and some bought at auction which were likely cherrypicked. As I said on a different thread, I once bought an original collection with two Drums, but that was by far an outlier. Virtually all original collections I bought did not have rare backs in them. But I also remember how inexpensive those backs were in the 80's and 90's. When I had Drums and Uzits I might get $125-150 each for them. I also remember Brown Hindus got a small premium over a common. So if commons were $15 I would sell a BH for $25. It's comical looking back how affordable this stuff once was. But it won't be ever again. |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
I've kept a few of my UZIT's....and, in the past 10 years I have sold these......
Sold for $2900 (2017) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...kleUZITx50.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...leUZITx50b.jpg Sold for $5925 (consigned to REA 2013....this Herzog / UZIT is the only one known) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ogSGC45x25.jpg Cash/trade deal....$1200 + $500 value in trade (2012) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITWiltse50.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...TWiltse50b.jpg Sold for $1650 (2008) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...seUZITx25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...bsize/uzit.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
how many broad leaf 460’s have you had/sold over the years Ted?
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Just by thinking about how many I have seen I would say there are more Uzits. :cool:
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Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
Hey guys
Of course we've seen more UZIT cards than BROAD LEAF 460 cards. The numbers favor this observation. More than twice as many UZIT subjects have been confirmed than BROAD LEAF 460 subjects. However, the scarcity factor of these two backs is very close. http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...eaf460back.jpg.......... 28 confirmed out of a possible 35 printed http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITbk.jpg........ 58 confirmed out of a possible 74 printed TED Z T206 Reference . |
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The nicest Uzit's and BL 460 I have left. I have owned about an equal amount, at one time I had 5 BL 460's but that was because I pursued them. The BL 460 is quite a bit tougher than the Uzit in my opinion, about 2-1 Uzit's for BL 460 as the population reflects. Still Drum is much more popular and probably about as tough as BL 460 as they seem to not get resold. Both Drum and BL 460 are notoriously difficult to find centered on the back as well.
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confirmed subjects for each back. I know using the pop reports won't be a completely accurate number because of the crossovers, crack outs ect... but I think between the two backs they would be close enough to give a general idea. Uzit = SGC 119 PSA 143 Total 262 @ 58 subjects = 4.51 Broad Leaf 460 SGC 46 PSA 37 Total 83 @ 28 subjects = 2.96 If you go by these numbers the BL460's would be 41.49% scarcer than Uzit. |
Regarding PSA pop reports: I think that PSA understates BL460s because for some reason they didn't distinguish between 350s and 460s in their pop reports for some time. I began a thread in 2013 about why there were only 350s in their pop reports. It turns out that PSA separated them on flips into 1910s and 1911s, but listed them all in the pop reports as BL350s.
I don't know when they broke out 460s as a separate group. I also don't know if they went back and corrected their pop reports, or only listed BL460s going forward from that point. If they only listed them going forward from the time they separated them in the reports, that would cause the numbers to be under reported. I'm bad with links, so I'll just bump that old thread to the front page. :o |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
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I don't agree with that the "262" number regarding actual UZIT cards. The real number is considerably less than 262, as UZIT's have been re-graded (or crossed-over) often. If I can account for 2 re-grades in the Pop reports, you can bet that there are many, many more. Pop report data (PSA & SGC) regarding UZIT's is misleading as it lists many more cards than actually exist in the real world. This kind of data skews any scarcity factor calculation when comparing these two rare backs. The BROAD LEAF 460 Pop report data is less affected by this overstating problem, since many of the BL 460 cards are unique (1/1). Furthermore, we really do not know how many BL 460 cards are in circulation, since PSA did not identify BL 460 cards for many years. Therefore, the PSA Pop report data on BL 460 cards is incomplete. My opinion, after chasing UZIT's & BL 460's (amid many other tough T206 backs) for 35 years, is that these 2 scarce backs are equally rare with BL 460 having a slight edge. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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the Uzit's is accurate either. I took the actual numbers from the pop reports because just like the Uzit's there are crossovers with the BL460's too and I think % wise with two rare backs like these the number of crossovers would be close. The recently discovered Cobb that sold this spring was crossed over already and SGC still lists two 1/10's in their pop reports. Attachment 328922Attachment 328923 Here's a Rucker that was crossed. Attachment 328924 and how many of the SGC's that were 1/1's do you think David Hall picked up for his master set that are now in PSA holders but still in SGC's pop reports? For as long as I can remember PSA had the Broad Leaf 460's in their pop reports they just didn't have them separated from the 350's. Here's an old pop report from early 2012 and they're in it 16-138 are BL460's Attachment 328925 Attachment 328926 Attachment 328927 |
Scott, those are great looking cards. I think I saw the BL 460 at the National (I am the dude who bought the E107 Plank). Put the BL 460 in your next auction!
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Just a quick question from a relative newcomer to collecting tobacco era cards. Is there a reason no one mentions Beckett’s pop reports? Seems that PSA and SGC are always quoted as sources but never Beckett. Just wondering.
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I of course agree that the pop reports are not the end all be all given cross overs and failure to denote proper back or card variation. But pointing out one-off errors I believe is unhelpful given the magnitude of the pop reports as a data tool. Comparing what the pop report lists for both Uzits and BL460s is going to have a margin of error, but is a useful comparative tool which is what I was getting at here:
Uzit = SGC 119 PSA 143 Total 262 @ 58 subjects = 4.51 Broad Leaf 460 SGC 46 PSA 37 Total 83 @ 28 subjects = 2.96 This ~40% difference in scarcity is a pretty big difference to just quickly explain away and conclude that they're pretty similar. |
I agree with Jay. There are going to be cross-over duplications in both the Uzit and BL460 Pop Reports. There's no reason to assume that one of the two backs would have more phantom cards in the report than the other.
There are only a handful of players who have a BL350 and a confirmed BL460. So if PSA gave a generic label to a BL460, we are talking about only a few possible cards. Here are the confirmed BL460 players who also have a pose that was printed with BL350 back: -Doolan -Downey -Snodgrass -Street If we assume PSA gave a generic label to a few BL460s featuring the above players, it's still not a significant number. Even assuming 5 would be very generous. A 40% difference is definitely statistically significant in this case. |
i wish we could hear from some old time t206 collectors who don't post on N54 who could share their lifelong experiences with Uzits and Broad Leaf 460's
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What's wrong with the old time collectors with lifelong experience who do post???
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I agree a 40% difference is statistically significant. |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
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This is an excellent point. I can tell you that a good number of T206's I sold to David Hall for his master set were SGC graded. Of course, he converted them to PSA. Furthermore, these SGC graded cards don't necessarily have to be 1/1's. The SGC graded cards (44) which I sold him are permanently listed in both SGC and PSA Pop reports. Therefore, the exact same card is listed twice, resulting in mis-leading data. As many of you guys know, the BROAD LEAF 460 (35 subjects) were printed only in the 350/460 series. The BROAD LEAF 350 subjects were printed in the 350-only series. So, no matter how PSA has "mixed up" their Pop report listings, a knowledgeable T206 collector will not be confused. Listed here are the subjects who appear with BL 350 and/or BL 460 backs. Besides the 6 super-prints, the specific pose distinguishes whether it is a BL 350 or a BL 460...…. Bender Chance...………………….......super-print Chase (blue portrait)……..super-print Chase (dark cap)……….…..super-print Doolan Downey Evers...…………………………...super-print Mathewson (dark cap)…...super-print Snodgrass Street Sweeney What concerns me are all those previous years (circa 1990's - early 2000's) which PSA didn't accurately account for the BL 460 cards. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Whoops, I see Ted posted already posted the others; I thought all super prints came in both. |
Evers is the only super print confirmed with both Broad Leaf backs and
the other non super prints can be distinguished by the pose whether they're 350's or 460's. |
Are UZIT cards as scarce as BROAD LEAF 460 cards ?
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Ryan Only three of the 6 super-prints have been confirmed with the BL 460 backs. Chance and both Chase cards have yet to be confirmed with BL 460. Hey, am I going to see you at the Philly Show in Oaks this weekend ? TED Z T206 Reference . |
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I forgot that Cobb and Matty have not yet been confirmed with BL 350 backs. TED Z . |
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