OT: Hall of Fame - Edgar Martinez?
 

The Hall of Fame voting will be released later today, and according to the Tracker it's looking pretty clear-cut (except for one player in particular...)

IN:
Chipper
Vlad
Thome
Hoffman (barely)

OUT:
Mussina
Bonds
Clemens
Schilling
And the remainder of the field, who have no chance this year.

But the one fellow truly on the bubble is Edgar Martinez. It's a crowded field this year... perhaps Edgar gets in next year (which is his final year of eligibility). Much of the debate surrounds the DH position in general.

What do you think... Is Edgar a Hall of Famer?

To me he is. I think he'll be similar to Jim Rice i.e. the "you had to see him play" argument. No one wanted to see him at the plate.

Far from being a"5 tool" player, he was strictly one dimensional. Very good at what he did, but is that HOF worthy? I say no.

I'd say Thome was a pretty one dimensional player. But if you can put a guy in for hitting homers, you should be able to put a guy in for being a professional hitter too.

He's a local hero here in Seattle, and they even have a street named after him. The local news here is totally biased for him. However, I'm not particularly a Mariners (or Seahawks) fan, so I don't have the homer bias.

How about...
 

How about the only athlete in history to be an All-Star in both Major League Baseball and the National Football League? His short lived career highlight film is jam packed with seemingly unending absolutely incredible mind-boggling plays - Power! Defense! Offense! off the chart! Some of these other guys mentioned couldn't even hold his jock strap. Famous, you ask? Yup, big time!

Edgar should definitely get in IMO, .312 / .418 / .515 over 18 years plus a 68.3 WAR + loads of other great stats.

I think this is one of the strongest HOF selections in a while, Moose, Guerrero, Jones, Thome, Walker, Schilling and Hoffman all deserve a spot.

Just my opinions,

Owen

I thought the Hall had higher standards - only 2247 hits for Edgar. Let everyone in, except some of the Best players of all time ( Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens ). These greats must continue to have their hands slapped.

Funny how we will hold it against Edgar for not playing the field for the last ten years of his career after he got hurt, but we don't apply the same logic to guys like Trevor Hoffman. In 18 years of National League baseball, Hoffman came to the plate 36 times. He pitched 1035 times, but pitched less than 1100 innings and never started a game. Hoffman is one dimensional. Edgar is too. I think both were pretty darned good at that one dimension. I say let em in!

Close the doors
 

Greatest DH of all time yes. Hall of famer not really. I feel like putting him in is a way of just putting fan favorites to please the masses. A lot of the greats from the 80s and 90s have been tarnished by the roids. So now the Hall wants to put in players that make you feel good. Like we can’t see the major holes in the halls inductees. No Rose no Bonds no clemens and joe Jackson ? Oh but we got Jack Morris , Alan trammel and Edgar Martinez.

Mussina is much much better than many pitchers in the HOF. I don't think Hoffman was that good personally.

It's hard to take an institution seriously that excludes a 7 time MVP winner and 7 time Cy Young winner.

I think it would be harder to take them seriously if they put them in.

Especially with Selig, Pudge, Bagwell, and Piazza in. Oh and look at Ricky Herderson’s power in the early ‘90s while with the bash brothers. The selective outrage is nauseating. Let them in

Not to mention, again lol, all the greenie poppers we worship. Oh BTW Randy Johnson's best years were in his mid and late 30s. Just saying.

I don't feel strongly about Edgar either way, but I wouldn't have put Hoffman in. I don't have any objection in principle to voting in a closer or a DH, but Mariano's the only 1-innning guy I've seen who warrants a spot in the Hall. I've seen at least a couple of DHs who were good enough, but on Edgar I'm undecided.

man that's a tough one, though he had some big forearms! He could hit! But I'd rather see the guy with the most hits in the 1990s get in before Edgar! And that's Mark Grace!

Absolutely Edgar belongs.

From Baseball Reference's Similarity Scores.
Similar Batters
1.Will Clark (902.2)
2.Matt Holliday (894.3)
3.John Olerud (885.6)
4.Moises Alou (879.2)
5.Magglio Ordonez (875.3)
6.Bob Johnson (863.0)
7.Bernie Williams (860.3)
8.Paul O'Neill (852.6)
9.Lance Berkman (851.6)
10.Ellis Burks (850.2)

My opinion -- a definite tier short. Thome, not enthusiastic about, but I guess you have to say yes to a guy with 600 HR if he isn't named Sosa or ARod.

I feel that some teams had a PED culture. I think the mariners were one of those teams as well as the Oakland A’s. As players moved they took the culture with them.

Let's hear it for ol' Indian Bob, the pre-war Edgar Martinez (apparently).

This is an instance where similarity score means very little if you ask me. Edgar put up an OPS over 1.000 5 times in his career, including a stretch of 3 seasons in a row. Will Clark never had an OPS over 1.000 over a full season. Neither did Holliday, Johnson, Bernie, or Berkman.

Ordonez put up a 1.000 OPS once, as did Alou, Olerud, and O'Neill (strike season).

Burks only accomplished the feat twice over a full season.

Martinez is better than all of them. His lifetime OPS is 933.

Anyone have a link to the tracker?

.418 career OBP, which is 21st ALL TIME, and top 35 all time in OPS. Those statistics are very significant. To me, no question he belongs.

"Anyone have a link to the tracker?"

Here you go....

75% is needed for Induction to the Hall.

At the time of this post, 239 ballots are in, which represents 57.5% of the total. Traditionally, the support levels drop a bit as the late ballots are tallied.

This is updated in real-time. Here is the link....

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...AAsz3uDsmqy_Vw

Edgar fell short.

Edgar belongs.

The fact that there is even debate about the DH is ridiculous once we started to let Relief Pitchers into the HOF. A relief pitcher may only play in 40-50 games per season and may only pitch in 50-60 innings through that entire season. If that kind of "one-trick-pony" can get elected into the HOF so should a professional hitter.

Similarity scores don't really mean anything. They were a fun toy Bill James came up with years ago, but they shouldn't be taken seriously. A better idea is to take a look at the players around him in WAR (and then we can talk about the DH penalty in the WAR formula and things like that).

Here you go:

73.
Miguel Cabrera 68.8

Tony Gwynn 68.8

75.
Al Simmons 68.7

76.
Ivan Rodriguez 68.4

77.
Carlton Fisk 68.3

Edgar Martinez 68.3

Eddie Murray 68.3

80.
Kenny Lofton 68.2

81.
Graig Nettles 68.0

82.
Fred Clarke 67.8

83.
Ryne Sandberg 67.5

84.
Ernie Banks 67.4

This is position-player only. 77th all-time, tied with Fisk and Murray. A few non-HOFers in this territory, but mostly guys who are in. There are interesting questions to ask about methodology, but by WAR Martinez looks like a comfortably second-tier Hall-of-Famer.

Curiously, Edgar does only a little bit better in oWAR (the offensive component of WAR). There he's 69th all-time, sandwiched between Rafael Palmeiro and Tony Gwynn.

Here's my new way of determining a hof player. Do I want his rookie card?

Nope.

I like it!

I am going to start a Jerry Koosman campaign with the vet committee!!

I still don't get Hoffman over a guy who was consistently one of the best pitchers in the game, namely Mussina.

:eek:Hoffman may be the best pitcher in the HOF with a .449 winning percentage.

Hoffman
 

I always liked Hoffman's minor league card showing him as a scrawny kid hoping to one day be a major league SS.

https://photos.imageevent.com/derekg...IMG_0004_2.jpg

Baseball is a defensive game. It's the ONLY game where the defense controls the ball. Can't be a Hall of Famer when you don't play defense in a defensive game. In my opinion.

Big Congrats to the players that made it in the MLB HOF! They all deserved it! They will be joining Jack Morris and Alan Trammell thanks to the Modern era committee back in December. Edgar will be getting in next year, as it will be his last attempt to do so I think.

Chipper Jones 97.2%
Vladimir Guerrero 92.2%
Jim Thome 89.8%
Trevor Hoffman 79.9%

Minor league cards (which most are low pop) , are great to collect to! Penny stocks now which may become blue chips tomorrow!!

There is an even earlier Trevor Hoffman card, he is found in the 1988 University of Arizona baseball team set made by the Tucson police.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Tucson...wAAOSwLmZZqNWe

Martinez is a Hall of Famer. Toss out his last season, when he was 41, and he's got a career 151 OPS +.

This article from Ryan Spaeder of The Sporting News makes the case quite well.

Here are some numbers to mull over:

https://i.imgur.com/RRyTaKP.png

And I thought this was pretty eye opening:

https://i.imgur.com/RIK3ASr.png

Except that Indian Bob was also one of the best defensive left fielder's of all time. He should be in the Hall before Martinez.

Nice Cherry-Picking, Bill.

When I look at just his stats, however, I see a DH with less than 2300 hits and only 309 HRs...in the time he played, IMO, that doesn't add up to HOF, just a tier and a tear below. Being in the top TWO Percent is still pretty damn good!

I don't think Hoffman had a HOF worthy career, however when you look at Bruce Sutter being in, it's hard to argue. I personally thought Billy Wagner was the more dominant closer for quite a few years...just didn't accumulate the numbers that Hoffman did.

When I look at Edgar Martinez stats, I see someone who, if he had been a shitty fielder, would likely deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame. My problem with potentially voting for him, however, is that, had he been forced to play in the field as well as hit over the years, his offensive stats would likely not have been as good as they were. Are his offensive stats so good that a bit of a dip in them would retain their Hall Of Fame worthiness? I'm not so sure.

Agreed. Also Coors field aside, how can you put Edgar in without Larry Walker? Walker had almost identical numbers + an MVP and 7 gold gloves.

5 tools and Edgar?
 

I think to fetishize the "5-tool player" when arguing about the HOF is a bit silly. Players who are genuinely outstanding in all 5 tools come along about once in a generation (Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Griffey Jr, Trout, maybe a few others). And even then, about half the 5-toolers lose their speed by age 30....

Except for those few, almost all players, even the greatest, are MLB average or worse at one or more of these skills. Collins didn't hit for power, Clemente didn't walk (which is one of the REAL 5 tools), Sisler couldn't walk or throw, Gehrig had legs like tree trunks, Ripken couldn't run if his pants were on fire but at least he fielded his position well, which the greatest hitter of all time (or at least second greatest) couldn't be bothered to do. Etc. etc.

If you limited the HOF to true 5-tool players you would have about 10 guys in there (which is what some people around here seem to want).

Like other sports and fields of achievement, baseball has become more ever specialized as it matures. The DH has been around for almost half a century, and the relief ace/closer even longer. If the rules permit that type of specialist player, then to exclude the best of them from the HOF would make the HOF not a fair representation of the game as it's played.

Example: Edgar Martinez played almost 600 games in the field. He wasn't very good at third base but like a lot of 3B, if the DH hadn't existed he would have been moved to 1B and would have been perfectly adequate, like a hundred other pure hitters who wound up at 1B. To penalize him because the DH does exist in the rules is ridiculous.

Check out retrosheet.org. Their WAR-style stat is called BFW. Edgar has a 45.4 career BFW, which is exactly the same as Griffey Jr and higher than about 3/4 of the players in the HOF. Since 2000 only four non-pitchers with a higher BFW have been elected: Boggs, Thomas, Bagwell, and Henderson.

I hope Edgar will get in next year.

I think Walker is a HOFer too. But I don't see what defense has to do with anything. Pitchers don't get overlooked for being terrible hitters so I really don't understand this stance where Edgar is less deserving for not playing the field. He was there to hit and no one was better than he was.

Also all this talk about defense has me wondering why none of you guys are out on a limb for Vizquel. He was one of the greatest fielding shortstops of all time and only got a little more than a third of the vote.

um... Coors Field aside?
 

That's a pretty big aside!


Walker:
Home .348 .431 .637
Away .278 .370 .495

Martinez
Home .311 .423 .517
Away .312 .412 .514

Vizquel had a high fielding percentage, but he was average defensively. Vizquel averaged 4.62 plays per game. The league average was 4.61. Because of his average range, he is 18th in TZR.

That would be a fine analysis unless you saw the guy play. You're going to tell me that anyone watching Vizquel play thought he was anything other than the best fielder in the game? There are two shortstops all time who have won at least 10 gold gloves. Those shortstops Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel.

Not sure if we're looking at different stats, but I see that Vizquel was 5th career in TZR at SS. Only Ozzie, Ripken, Aparicio, and Belanger are ahead...all in the HOF except Belanger who was a poor hitter. I saw Vizquel play several games, and I definitely wouldn't say he had average range.

As for Martinez (mentioned a few posts previously), I don't buy that he wouldn't have hit as well if he had to play defense. Some players don't hit as well if they're sitting on the bench, but they do hit if they're more "in" the game by playing the field. On the other side of the coin, are we assuming that Aaron would have hit 900 homeruns if he could have DH'd his whole career?
Guys, DH is part of the game...has been for many years. Why not put the very best in the Hall?

I'll start:

1. He has more wins than Koufax.
2. He has more strikeouts than Koufax.

It's just an insane way to view Vizquel. He played during the peak of ESPN and Sportscenter. I saw him daily. No one who ever watched him play thought he was just an average guy. That viewpoint makes no sense to me.

Far more chance of him getting hurt if he plays the field as well. That by itself would dampen his offensive stats. And if the injury was career threatening...

And anyone who thinks Omar Vizquel had bad range is off his rocker. Vizquel got to balls 99% of shortstops wouldn't even try to get to.

Fielding stats are all misleading IMO. From all the Indians Red Sox games I saw, Vizquel was sensational.

He didn't really play a full season until he was 27, I wonder why. With a few more early years his career numbers would be a lot higher.

On baseballs, I only collect hall of famers. With that said, I'm so sure that Visquel is Hall worth and will make it to the Hall, that I'll be getting a signed ball long before he's elected.

I agree that this is hard to overlook. I think that in Walker's case it is fair to judge him more on is away stats, which I do not think are HOF worthy.

Chipper Jones joins Babe Ruth, Stan Musial, Lou Gehrig, Mel Ott and Ted Williams as one of only six players in MLB history to record a .300 batting average, a .400 on-base percentage, a .500 slugging percentage, 450 home runs, 1,500 walks, 1,600 RBIs and 1,600 runs.

It is impossible to look at the stats of Walker or Todd Helton without taking ballpark into extreme consideration. Although Walker's career OPS+ of 140 takes ballpark into account, so he was still a very good hitter. Almost as good as Edgar. Then you throw in his outstanding defense...

Also, you rarely hear anyone talk about how much better Sandy Koufax was at Dodger Stadium than he was away from it. Starting in 1962 when Dodger Stadium opened, his home ERA was an unreal 1.37. That is over a five year span. His away ERA over that same span was 2.57.

Best right-handed hitter I ever saw
 

"Cherry-picking" or not, those are impressive Hall of Famers
 

Bill Gregory posted some impressive names and their numbers (alongside Edgar's) and received a "cherry-picking" award; possibly other knocks, too, as I have not read much beyond Bill's post. When mentioning some of the all-time, all-time greats in the same breath as Edgar Martinez is considered "cherry-picking", I say: Pick away! Edgar has been criticized for being a DH. Let's just add that he had no speed, batted right-handed and hardly ever beat out a hit. I like the company in which Bill (and Edgar's stats) place him.

I can think of at least one team that currently has two players on its roster that I'd rank ahead of Edgar on the list of finest right-handed hitters I ever saw.

The Angels (Pujols and Trout?) would be my guess as to what you're suggesting.

That said, I knew this would be a great debate. Have not counted up the "yays and nays" but it seems to be a near-perfect split. One factor not discussed much was Edgar's clutch hitting and his ability to get the key hit when they needed it most. Tough to measure that factor statistically, but having watched him throughout his career, I can say he was one of the best.

Great guy as well... I personally hope Edgar gets in on his last ballot.

When we use our eyeball test to determine if the person used steroids or not is where it falls apart for me. It seems that Seattle had somewhat of a steroid culture as referred to in Rookiemonster's post above. Bret Boone comes to mind with his outlier season and many whispers. Never proven, only innuendo, but if it was in the locker room and part of the culture, what makes us think that other Mariners were not involved? Was it because we witnessed no acne on their back? Apparently that doesn't even matter because we will put Piazza in and there were rumblings about his need for benzoil peroxide on his back. Is it because there was never a report of a request for a larger hat size? Because we know that is the tipping point for hall of fame support.


Is Martinez a HOFer? I don't think so, but I don't want a DH in before Papi because I am eagerly awaiting the selective outrage and pearl clutching with Ortiz from the same media that didn't like Bonds or Clemens because Papi was a "nice, fun, guy" and we want to brush is accusation and innuendo under the rug.

I have never been a fan of closers and their made up save stat getting in. Most are failed starters. Do we think that a number 3 or 4 starter with an out pitch that would work for 3 outs a game but not for 27 outs a game could rack up saves and get in? Probably a lot of rebuttal against that, but the Reds proved in the 90's/early 2000's that person X could be put in and get 40 saves.

Bonds was a 3 time MVP before even the biggest of critics even suggested there was anything going on. Clemens won 192 games in Boston, struck out 20 two times and won 3 Cy Young awards and was only in his mid-30's. Roger went so far as to put his life on the line criminally and stand in front of congress and still walks as a free man. Technicality? maybe, but they refused to convict him - yet the BBWAA sure will

Until those two get in, the rest of the debate and conversation is just fodder and arguing about the skinniest fat guy or the tallest little person or something like that.

Mariano Rivera was an elite closer for 18 years. You're going to say he's nothing more than a failed starter? His ERA in 96 career postseason games is 0.70. Come on. Hyperbole is the death of your argument.

Your other argument is that Edgar might have decided to cheat in 2001 at 38 years old?

According to Rivera bio, he, himself, was a failed starter.



PS - I will stop the argument now and concede that Rivera will be a walk in into the HOF. I am going to take a deep breath and relax as this HOF discussion drives me crazy every year as we try to parse out who did and didn't do steroids and where our line of morality stops and starts.

Statistics say he wasn't a clutch hitter. He was a better hitter with the bases empty than with RISP. .263 hitter with 2 outs and RISP. Let's just throw out all stats and just elect the guys we watched and thought they did things that they really didn't.

That would ignore his 375 average and 20 RBIs in 17 ALDS games. Sounds clutch to me. I remember the series against the Yankees in 1995. You wanted anyone up besides Edgar. He had 10 RBIs in 5 games.

Yeah I am guessing most of the legendary clutch hitters of subjective memory would not stand up to the stats.

All innings in theory should count the same, right? All runs count the same. Shutting a team down in the first should be as important as shutting them down in the ninth. The most active of closers are throwing what, 80 innings a year? What is your average starter throwing? Who's more important? If Rivera is really good enough to be a starter, don't you want him throwing twice as many innings for you?

So let's ignore 1175 at bats since he had 17 good games in the ALDS. Let's also ignore the 17 ALCS games too since he only hit .156 in those. You know I would think ALCS games would be important than ALDS games, but what do I know? Let's just ignore all stats. I saw Edgar get a big hit once against the Yankees. He must be clutch and a Hofer.

One thing has nothing to do with the other. You said he wasn't a clutch hitter. I'm saying he was because I saw him do it. You just put out numbers and totally ignore life. That's no way to evaluate a player you've seen play. If you want to do that with Babe Ruth, go ahead. But why would you ignore life with a modern player? You reduced Vizquel to a shortstop with an average range because of some stat you chose. That is not something anyone who ever watched him play would agree with.

Something that I was thinking about during the World Series... As we move to this craze where starters do not go more than 2x through the lineup, will this eventually evolve to "starters" who only go 1 time through the lineup. So, the goal will be 3 innings with one guy, 3 innings with the next guy and then someone for the 7th, 8th, and 9th. Wins will no longer be relevant because the "starter" doesn't go 5 innings. We begin a stat of "opens" for the starter that goes 3 clean innings and that guy gets to the hall based upon successful "opens". Will they rotation change to 6 or 7 pitchers but they pitching every 3rd or 4th game because they are only pitching 40-50 pitches per open. Again, hyperbole is where the argument falls apart, but it feels that it is where it is evolving to...

Well, I saw Edgar go 2 for 23 with 0 RBI in the 1995 ALCS. So why should we ignore that and act like he was some great clutch hitter because he had a big series against the Yankees? He stunk against the Indians and the Mariners lost the series.

I saw Vizquel play, he wasn't some great shortstop. He was reliable, but he didn't have great range. Ozzie Smith had great range. That is why he led NL SS in assists 8 times in 11 seasons. Vizquel never led the league, ever. He finished top 3 once. I guess we just have different memories, but mine are backed by stats. I would rather have a guy with great range than a high fielding percentage. That produces more outs and saves more runs. We will just have to agree to disagree.

.......
 

to me I say no........ I admit I feel im pretty tough on players, there are several recently that I would say no, they don't belong, others have echoed similar sentiments. Lets leave the HOF for the best of the very best... if everyone is special, no one is special.

That is correct.

If he wasn't some great shortstop then why is he one of only two ever with 10 or more gold gloves? Why did he win gold gloves in both leagues? Why was he out there at short as a 45 year old? Why did he stick around for 24 seasons as a defensive specialist if he was just so-so?

"I saw Gehrig play, he wasn't some great hitter. He was reliable, but he didn't have great power. Babe Ruth had great power."

Can't believe no one is discussing Rick Reuschel's candidacy yet?

Ozzie smith vrs O. Vizquel ? Omar had a much better arm, that is a fact ! Bare handed throw , he made it a art form ? Also i would have to say Ozzie's got a few of Barry Larkin's gold gloves in his house ? I seen 3 games & Larkin out fielded & out hit Ozzie in all of those games, I also watched most of there games , through out there whole careers , Barry's arm was much better, then Ozzie"s was . But , yet Ozzie was a 1st ballet HOFer & Barry had to wait a couple of years ? If Ozzie was a 1st ballet HOFer , why did Ryne Sandberg , also have to wait a couple of years to get in ? {THAT } is the problem with the { VOTERS } of the Hall Of Fame ! PERIOD ! Look we all will never agree on all players, just like life problems ? Here"s 1 for you, if Gary Carter is a HOFer, then were is Lance Parrish ? Both were the KEY catchers in the 1980"s, both had good arms & won gold gloves & both hit 324 HRS ? :eek:

The comment made concerning Omar V is totally out to lunch. I must of seen more than a hundred of his games, and regarded him, like most, as one of the very best if not THE BEST fielding shortstops in the game in his era. Dan O'Dowd, Cleveland's GM at the time agreed completely with that assessment on MLB Now just yesterday, as does Jim Thome, who was there with Omar in Cleveland. What the defensive stats (which have never been as reliable as those on the offensive side) do not show is what percentage of balls hit in Omar's area he successfully fielded. The absolute number of those balls is influenced by several factors beyond his control, including whether the Indians' pitching staff threw more flyballs than groundballs versus the league average, or struck out a greater percentage of hitters, as well as the dimensions of the foul territory versus that in other parks (obviously, a park which has significantly larger foul territory will produce a higher number of foul outs, thereby reducing the number of other forms of outs that can potentially occur). Watching him, along with probably hundreds of other games during that period, there was no question whatsoever concerning his tremendous range, sure-handedness and throwing arm.

As to Edgar, he may have been one-dimensional, but don't kid yourselves--that one dimension--hitting--is substantially more important with regard to runs than base running or defense. Exhibit A: Ted Williams, a slow to average baserunner, led the league in runs scored six times (due to his tremendous hitting and enormous number of walks--his lifetime on base percentage of .482 is the highest of all time). Joe DiMaggio, also a great hitter (though not matching Williams in this respect) and a substantially faster base runner, led the league in runs scored once.

The only problem I have with Edgar is that while his qualitative stats are very impressive, the quantitative stats fall a bit short. 309 HR's--where are the other 150 or so? 1200-some RBI's--seems like 300 or more are missing in action.

Good thread and interesting, thought-provoking posts,

Larry