Ethical to sell 1952 Mantle PSA 8 uncracked case
 

bidding at $100+ for fake card.....I would think throwing it out would be the right thing to do and not send it out...maybe the famous net54 fraud check guy will buy it..


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Uncracked-PS...3D221640596138

Based on what i read- this guy bought a PSA 8 holder, that a 52 Mick used to be in. (after carefully reading) He puts a pic of the card inside it?
So, the folks are buying basically a holder with a pic of the card? or am i missing something?

Not exactly. He claims the case originally held a Yzerman RC card and the case basically fell apart on him when he received it back from PSA. He then took pictures of a real Mantle card and a real Mantle flip and put them inside the case in order to fool his friends.

What????????

"I took the case to the Nationals and had a dealer beg me to sell it to him for $68,000.00."

This is slightly interesting so I moved it from a BST section...not sure why it was there anyway, as it should have gone in the Pre-1980 Postwar section. Anyone else willing to pay 68k for a holder? Sounds like a pretty good deal.

Maybe the lighting was bad at that table. Happens.

Me thinks this is the reason people are bidding, unfortunately it will pop up again somewhere with a wee bit heavier price tag on it.

Zing!

Pathetic, truly.

lmao

wow I started a thread slightly interesting..thats the best so far!..


as to my question.......usualy when you see lots of lots of words and long storys in the seller description on an iconic card.....its usually shady.

I just question the holder getting into the wrong hands...who the heck else is buying it....the fact he says was offered 68k...

I just don't think fakes in legit holders no matter how well accurate the description shouldn't be for sale...... cant sell fake us currency for example that appears real even if you are accurate in a description...

would you want 1000 real holders out there that were bought by buyers knowing that the cards that would be put in there aren't accurately described in the holder?

right watch out for a mantle psa 8 for 60% of the VCP sale price... (everyone keeps saying 60% is what fakes sell for in prior threads in examples) man just saved 150k+...except I wouldn't of paid that if the guy wanted me to pay by check and if Ian hasn't identified the alleged scam guy yet .....it would of been by paypal..

It's sad that people like this guy ruin ebay. We all know it's going to be some kid who stole his dad's paypal and thinks he's getting a $100k card without even reading the description. I bet he does that same thing with a Wagner or Ruth in the near future and steal another couple hundo.

...

Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there, but ... when I look at the scans in the listing, I see major league frosting in all 4 sides of the case. Does anyone else? Isn't frosting a sure sign of a tampered with case?

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard, it was still in the wrong section.

That's what I see. Whole thing is a joke

Seriously - who would that be?

That's nuts !

i sent the seller a message explaining how fraud could be facilitated by this sale.
He was kind enough to respond


I understand your concern. I no longer want the case for my personal collection. I started the auction off at .99 cents and let it end where it may. There are over 60 people watching it as of right now with 28 bids. I was as honest as I could be in the description and explained in great detail exactly what was being sold. In your professional opinion how would you recommend I sell this item. Thanks and God Bless!!



I responded to him as follows,


The listing has been posted on a message board I and many other collectors frequent. Collectively we have ongoing concerns about fraud in the hobby. Since both the holder and the Mantle photo have no intrinsic value, dollars spent for the holder imply that a buyer is looking to profit from spending hundreds to get it. Your watchers and interest in your auction probably spiked after the listing was posted on our and perhaps other messages boards. I can easily accept from your response that you are not engaged in fraud, but may be inadvertently facilitating it. The right thing to do in my opinion would be to discontinue the auction and destroy the holder.


We'll see what his response is.

...

I sent him a message telling him he is a scammer and is assisting other scammers. I called him scum of the hobby. I expect no answer. He is pos for doing this.

Why does the baseball collecting hobby collect the most despicable people that walk the earth? It is just sickening.

Wouldn't taking a picture of a real flip and reusing it be construed as copyright infringement in the eyes of PSA? Potentially getting this guy into a lot of hot water?

If his National "story" was true, that guy should have taken the $68K and ran. If it was me, I would have blown it all on overpriced cocktails and Ferris wheel rides. :rolleyes:

I'm sure the National story is another lie. If psa was open , I'd call them myself. This is incredible. Thanks OP for making this aware to us.

Why would a dealer at the National offer $68K unless he miss represented it. It looks like he is saying it's good enough to fool a dealer.

It's pretty much a microcosm of society, no better or worse, in my opinion. For those of us that don't cheat and only want to have fun collecting (admittedly I do make some money from the hobby, but my first passion is collecting), it makes it challenging sometimes.

It's endemic to any line of business or other activity where money is involved, baseball cards are nothing special in this regard.

Ok. Reported it with ebay as fraudulent posting. Also sent email to PSA. That will be Tuesday. Did what I can. This really pisses me off. Big time.

I can see where this sort of thing (empty Mantle flip) can be a collector's item, but unfortunately...it cannot be a collector's item because of the damage it can do to the hobby. I want to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, but if he doesn't listen to Frank and take what he's saying serious, then it's obvious that he only cares about the amount of money he can gain from it.

Leon, it's not about making money, it's about cheating people and makng money on them.

Cheating people is never right. I know that's not you meant Leon. This crap must be mèt head on and disributed. We must speak out and tell the truth. This guy is a scammer and supplies other scammers.
- Jimmy

By usung an altered pic of the flip hes deff doing wrong by psa, and im sure they would want to know. I sent him an email too.

Cheating and fraud is never good. This board has been quite good, historically speaking, about rooting a lot of it out.

Id hope a few would report this seller to psa that is if it wasnt done already

great email man....im glad I brought this to the boards attention.....and not wasting the boards time with my posts..

I reported to ebay and psa in the hopes someone dosnt get ripped off big time down the road from the new owner. Altering that flip is fraud. Kind of like me selling fake $50 bills on ebay and saying they are fake.

Really? - Ferris Wheel Rides?

Here is his response to my message through eBay:

I never intended for the case to be sold for an insane amount of money. When I used the case to have fun with my friends I never tried to sell it. I do think there is some value to it just as a novelty item as i explained in my description. I completely understand your point that someone may try to use it in a fraudulent way but that never crossed my mind until others mentioned it. A scammer is always going to try and scam. Hopefully the message board and even other collectors can learn from this case and auction to really inspect a card and not just trust the case (PRO Grading is a prime example). I feel I was as honest as possible in the description and was very responsible with the case. A toy gun if misused can be utilized in the wrong way but toy companies still sell them. That is not the toy company's intent nor is fraudulent activity mine. I appreciate the conversation. Thanks

lmao - he sent me the same exact responce

this is exactly what I was thinking which is explains why its over $200 so far. Keep your eyes open at the National this year as this might be making an appearance.

"I am not trying to scam anyone. I went into great detail to be as specific as possible"

That's what he wrote me. What a joke.

Ok I am going to be different here. This has got to be the stupidest thread I have seen on Net54 in my short time being here. Seller is 100% saying it is a novelty item with the case not even resealed. Why the hell is everyone flipping out on this when we have real issues with scammers. Hell we even have scammers(yes more than 1) on this board now that for some reason people won't out.

The best part is some of the people posting how terrible this novelty item is use Problemstein to sell their cards.LOL

What next are you going to form a gang to harass fellow member Bob Lemke because he makes "custom" cards that someone could in the future try to scam someone with. Sorry Bob just using you as an example I like your and everyone else's custom cards.

if I was selling fake $50 bills on ebay for $5, saying they were fake but looked real would that be ok?

Yes as long as they are advertised as fake/novelty it would be fine with me. Just like the 100's of listing for fake money on eBay right now. Actually I believe one of our members is selling fake/novelty cash on ebay now.

Ben, I think the big issue is this PSA case going into someone else's hands with different intentions than the sellers

I understand that issue but the exact same thing can be said about Bob's custom cards.

Is the mechanic who tunes up the get away car for a bank robbery a criminal?

I just think that "FAKING" the PSA flip - although he fully admits to doing so is wrong and probably illegal - and im sure PSA wouldn't like this card being sold like this and will hate it when this card gets sold for big money and someone finds out its fake

Can you prove the mechanic was informed of the details as to what the car was to be used for?.....;)

It's not what you know, it's what you can prove :D

It seems like ethics and illegality are being mixed here and there. It doesn't seem to me that the ebay sale is illegal. As far as ethics, it seems that the seller has clearly stated the nature of the piece being sold which again I do not believe to be illegal. It is then a question of the seller to see the unintended consequences (fraud) which could come out of the sale. Actually some members obviously think those are the intended consequences. At any rate it is a good discussion from the perspective of the sellers responsibility.

I don't see this guy as the mechanic who tunes up the get away car, more like the guy they bought the unregistered, no serial numbers guns to rob the bank.

right even a real gun can be used safely or misused...its the method it which its available and other factors that can make the gun manufacturer liable for the acts of thugs..

in this case, hes like an ostrich head in the sand....his description shows that he likes to use lots and lots of words..and he can always respond to your messages with his use of lots and lots of words...but novelty item or not...$200+ he knows its wrong...no matter how many words he uses..

I don't see how you can hold a person responsible for the potentially fraudelaunt/illegal activities of someone else.

By this logic, no one should ever sell a car in case the buyer gets drunk and drives it into a school bus.

I do agree that the seller is acting irresponsibly to the hobby, and is probably going to get in trouble with PSA for copyright issues, but if he wants to take that risk, he is free to be as dumb as he wants to be.

...

It's not illegal to tune up a car. It is illegal to remove serial numbers off of guns, but that doesn't really even matter. The serial numbers don't lead anywhere and they still go bang.

He has responded to this with the same message that others have received. My next question for him was

"Were you also honest when you tried the same trick in November 2013? Or was that a different card? Your credibility is evaporating."


To which he responded "I was honest in November 2013, which proves I have had the case for awhile." :eek::eek::eek:

Thanks Peter.;)

"You're credibility is evaporating."

And with that kind of grammar, so is yours. :D:D

Cleveland National reference I believe...

We're still waiting, Jake. Who is this person you refer to?

So, the seller has admittedly producing a counterfeit PSA label and counterfeit Mantle to " fool friends ". And I agree with others that ethically, there is a problem here. The seller knows exactly what is going to happen with the card once sold, but does not seem to care. He did say " God Bless " though...gotta laugh at the hypocrisy.

Something like this actually happened to me few years ago and none of this even dawned on me. I had purchased a card and when it was shipped to me the seller put it in a PSA case with no flip in it to protect it from damage in shipping. It wasn't frosted. It just looked like two new halves that hadn't been used. He had a rubber band around it to keep it together. The tiny pins in the edge of the case that face the corresponding holes to line it up before sealing were still intact. If put together and squeezed slightly it actually stayed together.
I didn't think much about it except it was a good way to protect a card in transit. Since I had no real use for it I discarded it with the rest of the packaging.
I guess this sort of thing can happen occasionally. Scary to think what someone could do if a box of these plastic sides came out in the market. They have to be manufactured somewhere and I would bet it's not in house at PSA.
Kind of gives a new spin to the phrase "Buy the card, not the holder".

Drew

I don't see why anyone would spend that money on a fake Mantle, even if they did have bad intentions. The "card" doesn't come close to resembling a PSA 8 with such a rough cut. I would think you could spend 20 bucks on a handful of graded, modern cards and take your shot at cracking them without tearing up the cases, like I'm assuming all of the other scammers do.

Another thing to consider is that, somewhere, there is a proud owner of a real PSA 8. Little does he know, there will soon be a "twin" of his card floating around.

I checked the number, and it is a PSA 8 Mantle.

Does the seller not realize that by selling this, all his future sales will be in question?

This is crazier than the Jason Mars T206 Wagner.

what about someone getting another mantle reprint that's better....the issue isn't the mantle..the issue is the 'legit' holder..

Presumably the guy Ian won't name?

Oh, okay. I need to work on my boyntonese.

correct peter...was super hard to know what I was referring too..

.

So it's all about Ian now? :eek::D

I think you would get a visit from some Secret Service agents who would explain whether it is OK.:eek:

And the seller is from Ohio! Enough said.

...

By a zero feedback bidder with a total of five bids in his life. He must feel so lucky to have prevailed in this auction.:rolleyes:

...

Gee, I guess so? Pretty surprised to see my name pop up in this thread. No idea how being outright robbed of a large sum of money directly relates to this Mantle flip, but I guess when "it's all about" you, it just goes with territory.

:D (I know you're just joking Frank)

What collector in his right mind is willing to pay $510 for a PICTURE of a card? Either the buyer failed to read the item description, or has plans to scam someone. As others have pointed out, that picture of the Mantle card looks nowhere near the assigned grade on the picture of the flip!

Poof, it's completely gone from ebay as though it never existed.

Sad....:(.....I guess we'll have to go back to talking about Ian now.....:)...

Perhaps it was Richard Cavalieri behind the listing and knew now he wont get paid.. (though all this talk about him with no response may be because he not in good health or on vacation etc)

^^^ This.

Oh, please let that be one of the cards that is stolen, too. That would be Lady Karma knocking it out of the park! Two crooks getting worked over at the same time.

First, the unscrupulous gent who spent $500 to acquire the fake would be out his "investment", thereby insuring that he would have absolutely no chance of selling it for 100 times his purchase price to some unsuspecting chap at the start of the National...AND, the idiot who would risk his reputation, and his very freedom to steal the card, wouldn't be getting THE vintage baseball card, but a worthless reproduction.

Please, God. Should this happen, somebody on our board messages me, and send me the link. http://www.williamgregory.net/images/laughing.gif

well there are other things that are criminal and sketchy....what if someone buys the card for 69k..and its stolen..and files an insurance claim for a psa 8 mantle...could be a nice proft..


another issue is its one thing to pass off a psa 8 mantle ....but another to pass off a 2k card.....once you got a holder you have lots of choices of cards to use and price points....