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T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, etc.... Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yFoster11x.jpg For 38 years I've been collecting T206's, completing sets, and seeking out rare front/back combos. In this process, I've been quite fortunate in acquiring several T206 "finds". Before I tell you of my stories....it would be interesting to hear of yours....show and/or tell us of your T206 "finds" ? TED Z . |
Back about 25 years or so ago I bought a modest collection of what appeared to be an original T206 find- maybe it had 200-250 cards- and after I sat down to go through each card carefully discovered two Drum backs sitting adjacent to each other. In the eighties and nineties I bought many original collections, but this is the only one that ever had a Drum, much less two of them.
Ted- I think you bought one of them so I'm guessing you remember both cards. Sadly, I remember neither player.:( |
T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, etc.... Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"
Hi Barry
I love reminiscing, I do remember the find you are referring to with the two DRUM's. Except, I think it was back in the late 1980's. Anyhow, I was making great progress on my T206 T-brand collection. And, if I recall correctly, you bet me $100 that I would not acquire a DRUM card within that year. BINGO ! A few months after our bet, you picked-up this T206 collection. And, you were gracious enough to give me one of the DRUM cards. And, here it is...... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oellerdrum.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oellerdrum.jpg Furthermore, check this out....this DRUM card went from Barry >> Ted >> Barry (Arnold). TED Z . |
I remembered the missing corner, but didn't know it was Moeller. Late 80's could be right, making it more like 30 years ago.
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T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, etc.... Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yFoster11x.jpg My most major T206 find was very timely. It occurred in early 2006 when I was putting together my all-PIEDMONT set. This find of approx. 400 assorted PIEDMONT cards was from South Carolina. The owner of these cards got them from his Grandfather, who collected them in his youth from 1909 to mid 1910. This was evident to me, since there were no PIEDMONT 350-460 series cards in this find. Included in this group were 29 - Southern League cards with OLD MILL backs. Most of these cards (80 %) graded Vg-Ex. The other 20 % were Ex cards. There were 284 different cards in this group, of which I needed 192....expediting my progress in completing this all-PIEDMONT set. Here is a sample of the cards from this find which are still in my PIEDMONT set...... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...es15cds25x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...es15cds25B.jpg Barry's story is...."is the stuff that dreams are made of" (quote from Humphrey Bogart in the last scene in the movie "The Maltese Falcon". So come on guys, I'm sure you have some interesting stories of your "finds" to share with us TED Z . |
T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, etc.... Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"
Gee, 24 hours have transpired since I posted my T206 "find" last nite, and I am quite surprised (or perhaps disappointed) that no one has posted their "finds" here.
Whatever, I will continue with another of my T206 "finds". During the 1980's I was lucky to pick-up several "finds" at the Willow Grove Show, all of which consisted of BOWMAN and TOPPS cards. In the 1990's, I picked up two T-card "finds". A T205 collection of 144 cards. And a T206 collection comprising of 220 different cards. The T206 collection was from a "walk-in" at the Cooperstown Show. My table was set-up at the entrance to the VFW Hall, and I made a generous offer to the owner of these T206's. Then I told him to go around to the other dealers and get the best offer. About an hour (or so) later he returned to my table and we made the deal. The cards varied from Vg to Ex. Some of the major stars in this collection were the red Cobb, all three Cy Young's, all three Matty's, Lajoie portrait, all four Tinker's, all three Evers's, all three Chance's, all five Chase's, all three Willis's, and both Collins cards. Plus, 24 - Southern Leaguer's. Once again......how about sharing with us here of your T206 "finds" in this glorious hobby. TED Z . |
Mr. Mint jr.
Back in the early 1980s, I was a 12 or 13 year old and obsessed with cards. My dad got into the hunt, and he would place wanted ads in the local Bay Area penny savers. Had a number of really good finds, and of course it was cheap. Those were the days.
One night we went to visit an older teenager in Atherton or Palo Alto or nearby - fancy neighborhood, fancy house. According to him, his dad was Alan Rosen, and he would give him cards when he saw him. (Divorced.) The kid had a sense of the value of things but was still selling at reasonable prices. What I remember buying - this was a long time ago - was a 1969 Super Reggie Jackson (still a favorite card, it’s so pure) and all four T206 Cobbs, in a nice 4-window plexiglass screw-down holder. We paid him $225 for the four. The green one was a bit rough, some creasing in it, the other 3 were what we would have called excellent back then, or vg-ex+. Should have kept them, of course. It took a couple years to sell them, finally got $700 or $750 for the four. I might take a run at the Monster if I had kept them. David |
Ted, I wish I had a “find” story for you, but unfortunately most of my t206s were “found” at REA, Heritage, LOTG, Goodwin, Mile High, EBay, and I even found a few on Net54’s BST!!
My best acquisition story was getting a tip on a brown old mill, which ultimately led to me driving up to New Jersey with a bag of cash to meet Johnny V on his lunch break and doing a 5-figure deal in a parking lot - bought a great card and met an awesome T206er. Another acquisition (and disposition and acquisition and disposition) story was getting ahold of a Solly Hofman Drum, which I later traded to Mike S. for his Chance Lenox, only to buy it back from Mike and then later sold back to Mike. In less than a year, Mr Hofman lived in NJ, MD, NJ, MD, and NJ where he currently resides. |
T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, etc.... Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"
Hi David
Interesting story, thanks for posting it. And yes, you should have kept the four T206 Cobb's. TED Z . |
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Nice going good buddy. And, Johnny V is one great guy. You probably have all the various T206 backs by now ? I gave you a nice deal on this one at the Philly Show..... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ TED Z . |
Hola Ted. I do have all the T206 backs, at this point just trying to upgrade. But my Red Hindu is an Evers yellow sky, I never owned that red hindu; but I look forward to getting a good a deal at the next philly show for sure!!!
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At that Philly Show there was a guy who resembled you, and I did sell the red HINDU Pfeffer to him.
Excuse me, I had a "senior moment" :) Look forward to seeing you and talkin' T206's again next month at the Philly Show. TED Z . |
No worries! I have been mistaken for others before! Catch up soon.
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You sold me the Pfeffer Ted. Still love it
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Hey Jay
Don't mind me, at my age, you can expect a miscue (or two) :) TED Z |
T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, etc.... Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"
* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *
. . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yFoster11x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpg In 2008, I acquired quite a number of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. These cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta. This collection was strictly PIEDMONT cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 7 of the "Elite 11" cards in this group. Subsequently, another original collection of T206's was discovered in the Atlanta area by a friend of mine. And, this collection also included the "Elite 11" cards (6 or 7 of them). And very recently, Turner reported of another T206 find consisting of the "Elite 11" cards. This marks the 4th discovery in the surrounding area of Atlanta of an original collection of T206's that included these very rare PIEDMONT 350 cards. Elite 11....plus Lundgren http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...indaman12x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Schulte25x.jpg Initially, I was fascinated by the Lundgren (Cubs) card which I discovered with a seldom seen PIEDMONT 350 back. I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006. In the process of putting together a PIEDMONT-only set, I discovered some more rare PIEDMONT 350 cards and this led me to post this thread.... check-it-out http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180 for more info. on the "Elite 11". It appears that Factory #25 shipped PIEDMONT cigarette packs containing 1st print run PIEDMONT 350 cards to Georgia. I say this because some Joe Doyle Nat'l cards have also been discovered in T206 collections originating in the nearby area of Atlanta, Georgia. The best example of this being Senator Richard Russell's original T206 collection. It's the first known source of the "Elite 11" cards. His set includes the Joe Doyle Nat'l card. Russell grew up in Winder, Georgia (nearby Atlanta). He collected Tobacco cards as a teenager during 1909 - 1910. Note Although Lundgren was not printed with HINDU, SOVEREIGN, nor SWEET CAPORAL, this card is very similar to the "Elite 11" with respect to the initial 350 press runs of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. Therefore, I have included Lundgren in with this group. Hey guys, I'm not the only guy on this forum who's been fortunate to acquire T206 "finds"....so, how's about sharing your "finds" with the rest of us. TED Z . |
Would love to hear about some finds!
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T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, etc.... Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpg .... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)]. Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series. One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363 meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca). In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle "error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints. So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here. And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________ INDEX Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters. Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards) Post #5......350/460 series backs identified Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" Post #96.....UZIT checklist Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited) Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set Posts #481 >> 514.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds" In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors. However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s). TED Z . |
T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ogSGC45x25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITbk.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...GloveUZITx.jpg 1st Tale...... My old-time friend, Ralph, discovered the Herzog UZIT in a collection he acquired (circa 1990's) in his hometown in the Great Smoky Mountain area of North Carolina. He knew what kind of a "nut" I am about T206's with scarce backs, so we did a nice trade. But, he did not know how scarce this Herzog card was, until I subsequently informed him that it was the only known Herzog with a UZIT back. So we arrived at an additional cash amount (to him) to complete the deal. As of this date, this card remains unique. 2nd Tale...… About two years ago, I acquired a T206 collection from an long-time collector who attended Philly area shows (circa 1970's). He had acquired a small T206 collection at the Philly Show which included this McGraw / UZIT card. The McGraw (glove) card is in the "Exclusive 12" group of the 460-only series. So far, only 5 of these 12 subjects have been found with the UZIT back. And each one of these 5 subjects are unique T206 UZIT cards. This front / back combo is extremely scarce with the Exclusive 12 group. T206's with the UZIT back were issued in the Spring of 1911. The UZIT and AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards were printed together at the tail-end of the T206 press runs. It's my opinion that the UZIT back is 2nd to the BROAD LEAF 460 in terms of scarcity (normally printed T206 T-brands). 58 subjects with the UZIT back have been confirmed to date (Sept 7, 2018). 350/460 series...............................28 subjects Berger Bradley (bat) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Jordan (bat) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball-St Louis) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) Steinfeldt (bat) Tinker (bat off) Wagner (bat on right shoulder) Doc White (pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (bat) Wiltse (pitching) I am 100% confident that the above list of 28 of the 350/460 subjects is complete (as it coincides with the confirmed list of AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 subjects for the 350/460 series). 460-only series..............................30 subjects Abbaticchio (blue sleeves) Ball (Cleveland) Bell (follow thru) Bridwell (portrait-cap) Howie Camnitz (arms up) Harry Camnitz (arms side) Chance (bat) Chase (trophy) Crandall (portrait-cap) ** Frill Geyer ** Herzog (Boston) Hummel ** Lake (ball-St Louis) Latham Marquard (follow thru) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) ** Merkle (throwing) Murray (portrait) Oldring (bat) Overall (blue sky) Schaefer (Washington) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (bat) Schulte (back view) Seymour (portrait) Sheckard (glove) ** Tinker (bat on) Wiltse (portrait-cap) ** Exclusive 12 The 460-only series list is still a work in progress....I expect that as many as 16 more UZIT cards from this series will eventually be discovered. TED Z . |
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Double post due to power failure.
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T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"
A Net54er emailed me. Telling me that the Herzog / UZIT card which I claim to be unique is not so. He says that 2 different Pop Reports (SGC and PSA) list this card graded.
What he does not realize is that both these Pop Reports reflect the same card. I sold this Herzog card (graded SGC 45) to David Hall (for his T206 Master set) two years ago. David is a PSA guy, so he had this card re-graded. David lost 1/2 a point in the process as PSA graded it a "3". The Net54er appreciated my explanation. Anyhow, this is perfect example of why one cannot always absolutely trust Pop Report data to be an accurate representation of a rare card such as this Herzog. TED Z . |
Vertical OM miscut w/ 2 players
3 Attachment(s)
Hi all—
Would love assistance with some detective work: According to the centennnial edition of Inside T206, the only cards known to be vertically miscut AND show 2 different players are from P350-only sheets. It was a result of the Pirates winning the 1909 WS and being long-printed with some sharing vertical rows with other players. However, I recently acquired an Old Mill back Doc Casey that is vertically miscut, and features a different player at the bottom of the card. 1) Has anyone seen an OM miscut like this? 2) What could be the explanation for the vertical positioning of the different cards like this? Were players alternating vertically in OM? 3) Who might the player with the dark blue background be? Thanks in advance for your input and expertise. Looking forward to hearing theories. Justin |
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Hi Justin #1....I have seen quite a number of mis-cuts like your Casey (but not Casey....seen other T206's). #2....Multiple printings (vertically) of the same T206 subject was commonplace. Followed by a different subject (above and below) that subject. This process was independent of the T206 back. Since the fronts were printed first. #3...." Who might the player with the dark blue background be? " Casey is a 350-only Series subject, and many T206's in this series have dark blue backgrounds. It's anyone's guess which T206 is below Casey. TED Z . |
Thank you, Ted! Very helpful. The string is a treasure trove.
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I might have missed a couple of the dark blue subjects from print group 2 but if you eliminate the ones that haven't been confirmed or are Old Mill no prints you're left with these candidates. Batch Bender (with trees) Brain Cree Knight (with bat) Krause (portrait) Livingstone Quillen Bender and Cree have different back patterns than Casey and there is a Livingstone two name PD350 with Maloney at the top so if you eliminate these three as strong candidates you're left with these five. Batch Brain Knight (with bat) Krause (portrait) Quillen If you have these five in hand to compare with your Casey you might be able to narrow it down further. Very nice card congratulations on picking it up! |
5 Attachment(s)
Like I need an excuse but the Nascar race was rained out and it's
cool and overcast here so I was bored. The colors vary from card to card and can also vary on the same card with different scans. These are all Old Mill's and I didn't resize the scans because I didn't want to distort the colors. Attachment 328216 Attachment 328217 Attachment 328218 Attachment 328219 Attachment 328220 My choice would be Knight or Krause slightly favoring Knight. |
T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"
Justin
Also, either one of these Hal Chase cards could have been the card below your Casey card. These cards were initially printed on an early 350-only series sheet (circa Spring 1910). http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...aseblue50x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...seblue50xb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sedkcap25x.jpg TED Z . |
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Old Mill's with Blue backgrounds and any of them could have been the card below Casey. I wouldn't consider the Chase blue portrait a strong candidate though since there's a two name PD350 of Chase with Zimmerman on top. |
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https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...-only-example/ |
T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"
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Ronnie.....I stated my timeline wrong. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ogSGC45x25.jpg.....First, I'll reprise my story which I posted in Post #499 of how I acquired this Herzog card. " 1st Tale...... My old-time friend, Ralph, discovered the Herzog UZIT in a collection he acquired (circa 1990's) in his hometown in the Great Smoky Mountain area of North Carolina. He knew what kind of a "nut" I am about T206's with scarce backs, so we did a nice trade. But, he did not know how scarce this Herzog card was, until I subsequently informed him that it was the only known Herzog with a UZIT back. So we arrived at an additional cash amount (to him) to complete the deal. As of this date, this card remains unique. " At the 2013 National, David Hall was at my booth, and asked me "what kind of goodies do you have for me this time ? " I offered him this Herzog / UZIT card (which I knew he didn't have in his Master set. He recommended that I consign it to the Fall REA Auction. Of course he was the winning bidder. Compare the SGC serial number of the above card on display with the one in REA....THEY ARE THE SAME. I hope you get it now......as of this date, this Herzog card is still the only known one with a UZIT back. Sorry if I confused you, I got my years mixed up. Time is moving too fast for me. So it was 5 years ago (not 2 years ago) when David Hall acquired this card from me. TED Z . |
thanks ted. i get it now.
david hall bought the uzit herzog in REA. not from you. thanks for clearing that up. |
T206 Reference....Reflections, etc..... A Tale of Two Unique UZIT cards' "finds"
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Ronnie I offered the card to David Hall, and gave him a price which I thought was very fair, considering this T206 was one of a kind. David was being fair to me by suggesting that I consign it to REA. In order to see what value this card would rise to. Both of us knew from the start of this potential transaction that he would win this card. Therefore, in effect, he bought it from me. I have sold him many T206's over the years. So, I don't understand what you are driving at ? ? TED Z . |
ok ted
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Thanks guys so much for all of your expertise. I'll continuing digging and see if I can get closer to confirming the blue card showing at the bottom, or figuring out what the card above Casey might be.
Justin Quote:
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T206 Reference....Reflections.....291-card collection with DRUM, LENOX, and T205 Cobb
* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *
. . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yFoster11x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpg I'll continue on this topic with my most recent purchase. A little over 5 years ago I acquired 291 tobacco cards. This collection comprised of 274 - T206's and 17 - T205's. The T206 group of cards had a good mixture of stars in Vg-Ex to Ex condition. And, an eclectic group of rare backs. Especially, these two "goodies"...… http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...6DRUMx50bx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...erfeldDRUM.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LENOXx37_1.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...amLENOXx50.jpg The T205 group of 17 cards comprised of a couple of Minor Leaguer's, SP cards (Rowan, Vaughn, etc.), some commons and one star...... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...205CobbRTx.jpg TED Z . |
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg My title for this post is taken from a very good 1973 Baseball movie featuring Michael Moriarity and Robert De Niro. Check it out if you have not seen it. Back in the 1970's and 1980's, DRUM cards (of both T206's and T205's) were considered the scarcest tobacco cards. Of course, this isn't true anymore. The T206 BROAD LEAF 460 and the T205 HINDU (respectively) are tougher cards to find than DRUM. New DRUM cards continue to come out of the wood-work. The most significant find in recent years was Ron Oser's which included 51 - DRUM cards. DRUM cards were printed on subjects in the 350-only series and on subjects in the 350/460 series. The DRUM cards were issued circa Summer/Fall of 1910. FYI the confirmed T206 DRUM cards (as of today) are listed here...... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ntyABCDx50.jpg .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tyABCDx50b.jpg DRUM backs confirmed....total = 159 subjects 350-only subjects.................... 123 subjects Abstein Adkins Arellanes Armbruster Atz Barbeau Jack Barry (A's) Barry (Milwaukee) Batch Becker Bescher (portrait) Bliss Burke Bush Carr Casey Cassidy Chance (yellow portrait) Charles Clark Cobb (red portrait) Congalton Davidson Delehanty (Louisville) Dessau Dineen Donovan (throwing) Dorner Downey (fielding) Downs Egan Engle Evers (Chicago-yellow sky) Fiene (portrait) Fiene (throwing) Fletcher Freeman Gasper Graham (Boston) Hallman Hartsel Hayden Hinchman (Toledo) Hoblitzell Hofman Danny Hoffman (St Louis) Howell (portrait) Huggins (Portrait) Huggins (hands at mouth) Hunter Jackson Kelley Killian (portrait) Kisinger Knabe Knight (portrait) Knight (bat) Krause (portrait) Krause (pitching) Kroh LaPorte Lattimore Lavender Lennox Livingstone Maddox Maloney Marshall McAleese McBride McGann Matt McIntyre (Detroit) Milan Milligan Mitchell (Cincinnati) Mitchell (Toronto) Moeller Moran (Chicago) Moran (Providence) Moriarty Mullen (portrait) Murray (bat) Myers (batting) Myers (fielding) Nattress Oakes Perring Pfeister (seated) Phelps Phillippe Pickering Purtell Quinn Randall Raymond Rhoades (hands at chest) Rhodes Ritter Rudolph Schirm Schlafly Schmidt (portrait) Schreck Scott Slagle Smith (Buffalo) Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Starr Stephens Strang Street (portrait) Summers Sweeney (Boston) Jess Tannehill (Wash.) Taylor Thielman Thomas Titus Unglaub Warhop Willett (bat) Zimmerman 350/460 subjects..........................36 cards Baker Bender (no trees) Burch (fielding) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Doolan (bat) Downey (bat) Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Griffith (bat) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Jordan (bat) Konetchy (glove low) Lake (St Louis-no ball) Leifield (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (bat) Murphy (bat) Nichols (bat) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Sweeney (New York) Wagner (bat on right shoulder) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (bat) Wiltse (pitching) OK guys, Your turn to show-n-tell us of your T206 DRUM cards. TED Z . |
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LaPorte
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Drums are hard to find. Here is a LaPorte
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T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Hey Sean
Thanks for posting your Street / DRUM. And, did you know that Street is one of the few T206 dudes which has a 350-only card with a DRUM back, and a 350/460 card with a DRUM back ? TED Z . |
My Only Drum
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With a twin UzitAttachment 330362
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Drum
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Drum Back
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T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
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Hi Rob Thanks for posting your LaPorte / DRUM card. I think there is only one other one known. This DRUM is indeed very rare. TED Z . |
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Although, this thread pertains to T206 cards, there are some aspects of the printing of the T205 set that are similar to that of the T206 set. For example....the A-B-C-DRUM pattern
found in both of these tobacco sets. Therefore, feel free to also post T205 DRUM cards. Of the 208 different subjects in the T205 set, only 32 of them were printed with DRUM backs. Refer to this thread for more info regarding the A-B-C-DRUM connection: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...s+HINDU&page=2 Listed here are the 32 subjects which were theoretically printed with DRUM backs. I say "theoretically", since 5 subjects have not yet been confirmed. I expect that these 5 subjects will eventually be discovered with DRUM backs. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ertDRUMx25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...rtDRUMx25B.jpg Scan courtesy of Mark Macrae. T205 DRUM checklist......32 subjects James Austin John Bates Beals Becker ** George Bell William Bergen Russell Blackburne Albert Bridwell Mordecai Brown Harold Chase (border on shirt) Frank Corridon Thomas Downey Louis Evans George Graham (blue signature) Buck Herzog ** Richard Hoblitzell Miller Huggins ** Jack Knight A. Latham Thomas Leach John Lobert ** Briscoe Lord Patrick Moran Frederick Olmstead George Paskert Fred Payne Edward Phelps John Quinn Lewis Richie David Shean George Stone Zach Wheat ** Harry Wolter ** denotes not yet confirmed with DRUM (but have been confirmed with AB - BL - CY) So if you have them, why not post them......T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's. TED Z . |
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T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
John P.
Nice DRUM and UZIT Wiltse cards. Thanks for showing them. TED Z . |
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Here' my first T206 DRUM....acquired in the early 1980's. It maybe the only DRUM card of Moeller.
. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oellerdrum.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oellerdrum.jpg TED Z . |
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Here's a T205 Drum from my Yankees collection.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DRUMx50x_1.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lterDRUMbk.jpg T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's......if you have them, why not show them. TED Z . |
FYI - Portions of “Bang The Drum Slowly” were filmed on location in Clearwater, Florida. Ted, I’m sorry that I do not have anything to bang for your thread.
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T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
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Great to hear from you. Thanks for chiming in regarding this movie. It's a somewhat unheralded BB movie. Now, without revealing the story, Michael Moriarty is the ace Pitcher, Robert De Niro is his battery mate, and Vincent Gardenia is their team's Manager. Really good performances by all three actors. Di Niro was not a well-known actor prior to this movie....and, Vincent Gardenia was nominated for the Best Supporting actor Award in his role in it. Take care, my friend. TED Z . |
Ted- Epic thread, great work.
It's kinda eye-popping how many deals I've done with people here...several trades illustrated in this thread alone- Drums, Bl 460's, Uzits, Lenox's, etc...if I would've kept all the cards I've owned...But alas, I really do enjoy trading. Keeps things fun. |
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Thanks Mike And yes, you and I have done some nice T206 deals, dating back to the ole Fort Washington Philly Show days. I will be setting up again at the Philly Show in Oaks, PA in December. Hope to see you there. TED Z . |
One of the many great cards in my hot little hands at one time but, sadly, no longer is a Drum backed T206 Griffith batting PSA 7, one of the prides of my collection at the time and consigned to Kevin Struss when he was at Mastro.
Ted, I guess it had to be a 350/460 series according to your chart. |
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I found an ad that I think might be important on the timeline of the printing of southern league series with Old Mill backs. The ad was in an August 14 1909 Tampa paper. With the cards already packaged and in transit in mid August I would think the printing would have had to have started in late spring or early summer. Attachment 330828 |
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
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Hi John Your guess is yes......Griffith (with bat) is a 350/460 series subject. Take care, my friend. TED Z . |
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Listed in Post #516 here are all the T206's which have been confirmed (to date) with the DRUM back.
The following lists all the possible T206's which have yet to be found with the DRUM back. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...6DRUMx50bx.jpg 350-only series (67 subjects not yet confirmed) Abbott Anderson Arndt Beck Beckley Bender (trees) Blackburne Brain Brashear Bresnahan (bat) Burchell Burns Butler Campbell Carrigan Chappelle Chase (portrait-blue) Chase (dark cap) Clancy Clymer Collins (A's) Cravath Cree Doolan (fielding) Dubuc Dunn (Baltimore) Dunn (Brooklyn) Dygert Easterly Ferguson Flanagan Fromme Ganzel Bill Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hall Hannifan Hoffman (Providence) Howard (Chicago) Hulswitt Jones (Detroit) Kruger Lord Malarkey Marquard (portrait) Mathewson (dark cap) McCormick Mc Elveen McGinley McGinnity McGlynn Merritt Miller (Pittsburg) Oberlin O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Phelan Poland Quillen Sharpe Shaw (Providence) Stanage Jack White (Buffalo) Wilson Wright Irv Young 350/460 series (1 subject not yet confirmed) Mullin (batting) If any of you have any of these guys listed above with a DRUM back, PLEASE show-n-tell us about it here. TED Z . |
T206 Reference..Reflections..."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards
Switching back to T205 DRUM's.....after completing my 209-card T205 set [included the Hoblitzell (no stats)],
I continued my T205 "adventure" by forming these A-B-C-D sub-sets. Here is an example of my favorite...…. .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Huggins25x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uggins25bx.jpg I've been searching for the Huggins / DRUM for quite a number of years. Any help here is greatly appreciated. T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's......if you have them, why not post them here. TED Z . |
T206 Reference....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis variations exist ?
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x14.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg As we all know, the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. This is because the POLAR BEAR timeline coincided with the trades of these two guys from their former New York teams. Both of them started the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern (International) League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to his hometown team, Toronto. American Lithographic printed 250 different subjects with the POLAR BEAR backs....which include subjects in the 350-only series, the 350/460 series and the 460-only series. As rare as these 2 cards seem to be, you may be surprised to find out how many of them are in circulation. I have a fair estimate of how many Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations are currently in circulation. But, before I give you my number, let us hear your guesstimate ? http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...StLouisSGC.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...McGlynn25x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tLouisSGCA.jpg Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards (1912) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mmittohara.jpg TED Z . |
Who knows how many are still out there ? I'll guessimate around 850 each.
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About 400 or so each
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Guessing there are roughly 350 copies of each of each card. By the way, nice Demmitt! :D
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T206 Reference...Reflections...Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?
Interesting numbers, guys. Continue posting your guesstimates.
Thanks, TED Z . |
About 500 each
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I'll guess about 200-250 on O'Hara and 250-300 on Demmitt
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T206 Reference....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis variations exist ?
Thanks guys for all you guesstimates. Let's see if we can a few more inputs ?
Incidentally, if you are searching for an affordable Demmitt (St Louis) card, you should consider acquiring the T213-2 Demmitt. The image is the same, and so what if the name of the team differs, and it's caption is colored blue :) There is usually one (or 2) for sale on ebay for about $100. Think of the $$$$ you save, allowing you to buy many more T206's. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ittWSox50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...StLouisSGC.jpg TED Z . |
T206 Reference...Reflections...Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?
The average number of the guesstimate inputs = 470 cards of each of these St Louis variations. One input, however, is somewhat
high and skews this average number more than I would guess. Anyway, my number is a little more than just a guess, as have been tracking the St Louis versions of Demmitt and O'Hara for years. Therefore, my "sort of educated" guess is = 350 +/- 50 cards each. So, we are all basically in the same "ballpark" :) Thanks for your responses. TED Z . |
Thank you for your wealth of knowledge Ted.
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Many collectors etc. know nothing about the grading services, and about 300 of each of these cards have already been graded. Wonder how many have not been graded ? Most cards in general have not been graded.
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How many of the average polar bear common are out there?
Curious how this estimate lines up against the average polar bear population. |
T206 Reference...Reflections...Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?
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There are 250 different subjects in the T206 set printed with POLAR BEAR (PB) backs. American Litho (ALC) started their 1st press runs of the PB cards in the 350-only series (circa Summer 1910). There are 138 subjects in the 350-only series confirmed with PB backs. The population range of these PB cards is 50 - 100. Subsequently, ALC printed the PB backs on cards in the 350/460 series. In this series, 64 subjects are confirmed with PB backs. The population range of these PB cards is 100 - 300. And finally, the PB backs were printed on all 46 subjects in the 460-only series. The population range of these PB cards is 25 - 75. Given the above data, my theory is that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis cards) were printed during the 350/460 press run. TED Z . |
Do you think the Demmitt/O'hara are notably any more rare than the average PB common? How would you rate it's survivor population vs the average PB common.
Much lower Slightly lower Almost equal Equal |
T206 Reference...Reflections...Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?
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Your question is too general. It depends which series of POLAR BEAR (PB) cards you are comparing Demmitt and O'Hara with. As I elaborated on in Post #549 here, there are 3 series of T206 cards in which PB backs were printed in. The 350/460 series subjects were printed with a greater number of PB backs than the subjects in the other two series. This is an indisputable fact which is indicated in population report data. For example....the population report data of the red Cobb shows 320 cards. This Cobb is in the 350/460 series; therefore, either Demmitt or O'Hara would conceivably be 300+ cards (each). Since, it's my firm belief that these two St Louis variations were printed with this group. TED Z . |
Thank you for helping me through this. Lets narrow down more to try and see if I can get on the same page with my question.
Given any/average common in the 350/460 series. Is the Demmitt and O'hara any more rare than the other examples from that series? |
T206 Reference....Reflections....FYI-rosters of the 16 Major League teams
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lCYoung12x.jpg The T206 set comprises of 388 - Major League ballplayers. A breakdown of a each of the 16 team rosters will be listed here in the forthcoming posts. The printers at American Lithograph certainly favored the NY Giants (printing 53 subjects). A number far greater than any other team in the set. Not surprising, since American Lithographic was situated in downtown New York City (NYC). In fact, the combined representation of the three NYC teams is 27 % of the Major League guys in this set. For starters, here is the New York Giants roster with respect to the 4 series in the T206 set...… http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eetCap12xx.jpg 150 Series ..……………………...printed & issued circa Summer 1909 to Winter 1909 Ames (hands at chest) Ames (portrait) Bridwell (portrait-no cap) Crandall (no cap) Devlin Donlin (fielding) Donlin (seated) Larry Doyle (throwing) Durham Herzog (New York) Marquard (hands at side) Mathewson (portrait) Mathewson (white cap) McGraw (portrait-no cap) McGraw (pointing) Merkle (portrait) Schlei (catching) Seymour (batting) Tenney Weimer Wiltse (portrait-no cap) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ardP350x11.jpg 350-only Series ..……………………...printed & issued circa Winter 1909 to Fall 1910 Fletcher Marquard (portrait) McCormick Murray (bat) Myers (batting) Myers (fielding) O'Hara Raymond Snodgrass (batting) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dmont42x12.jpg 350/460 series ..……………………...printed & issued circa Fall 1910 to Spring 1911 Ames (hands over head) Donlin (bat) Larry Doyle (bat) Mathewson (dark cap) Seymour (throwing) Snodgrass (catching) Wiltse (pitching) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpg 460-only Series ..……………………...printed & issued circa Winter 1910 to Spring 1911 Bridwell (portrait-cap) Crandall (portrait-cap) Devore Larry Doyle (portrait) Latham Marquard (pitching) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) Merkle (throwing) Meyers (portrait) Murray (portrait) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (bat) Seymour (portrait) Wiltse (portrait-cap) Wiltse (pitching) Here is the tally for the 16 - Major League teams...… National League Subjects..Team ------------------- 53...……..New York 37...……..Chicago 26...………Brooklyn 23...……..Cincinnati 19...……..Pittsburgh 18...……..St Louis 14...……..Boston 13...……..Philadelphia American League Subjects..Team ------------------ 30...……..Detroit 27...……..New York 27...……..Chicago 25...……..Cleveland 22...……..St Louis 22...……..Philadelphia 19...……..Washington 13...……..Boston ---- 388 = grand total subjects TED Z . |
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lCYoung12x.jpg Here we have the New York Highlanders (27 subjects) and the Brooklyn Superbas (26 subjects) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dHINDUx50b.jpg 150 series Ball (New York) Chase (pink portrait) Chase (white cap) Chesbro Hemphill Keeler (portrait) Keeler (bat) Kleinow (bat) Lake (New York) Manning (batting) 350-only series Cree Demmitt Joe Doyle (hands over head) Engle Kleinow (New York-catching) Knight (portrait) Knight (bat) LaPorte Quinn Warhop 350/460 series Chase (blue portrait) Chase (dark cap) Manning (pitching) Jeff Sweeney (fielding) 460-only series Chase (trophy) Ford Frill http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nDahlen50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Dahlen50xb.jpg 150 series Alperman Bell (hands over head) Bergen (bat) Burch (bat) Jordan (portrait) Lumley McIntyre (Brooklyn) Pastorius Pattee Rucker (portrait) Wilhelm (hands at chest) 350-only Series Joe Dunn Dahlen (Brooklyn) Hunter Lennox Marshall McElveen 350/460 Series Burch (fielding) Jordan (bat) Rucker (throwing) Wilhelm (with bat) 460-only series Bell (throwing) Bergen (catching) Hummel Happy Smith (Brooklyn) Wheat Stay tuned......13 more Teams to go. TED Z . |
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Hey Ted, I know that this is off topic, but I just noticed something. And I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere:
What team did J. Ross Helm play for? Attachment 332979 I know that it says Columbus, but he is a Southern Leaguer, and Columbus is not in the South. Here is a scan of some minor leaguers. The top five are from Columbus. Their uniforms feature two different "C" logos. Neither of them match the "C" on Helm's uniform.The next two played for Columbia, and their logo is totally different. The final row is Foster and Paige, both of whom played for Charleston, and their "C" logo is an exact match for Helm's. It appears that Helm also played for Charleston, but on his card the printers erroneously wrote Columbus. Attachment 332980 I don't know where to look up minor leaguer's stats, but I'm sure someone here does, and can confirm which team Helm played for. |
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Here is that scan of Helm where he is identified as a Southern Leaguer:
Attachment 332981 Attachment 332982 |
Helm
James Ross Helm played for both Columbus and Chattanooga in 1909, according to his baseball-reference page. He played for several teams in the Southern League, including Montgomery and Little Rock as well. Your observation on the jersey logo is very interesting. It doesn't look like he ever played for Charleston, but that 'C' sure does match up.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=helm--001jam |
Here's an old thread about Helm playing on the Columbus GA
team in 1909. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=Helm |
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Hey Pat, that old thread was a great find. So it seems that the other five players in the set played for the Columbus, Ohio team. But Helm played for Columbus, Georgia. But he still seems to be wearing that Charleston "C" on his uniform.
But at least we know that they did get the team and league right for Helm. |
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