The major difference is that pressing is allowed, and even performed, by CGC, but the rules on cleaning are actually pretty similar.

That's a semi contentious area there too.
Especially after grading came along.

The answer will vary depending on the issue.
One set from Germany had acidic gum, and it's expected and almost required that it be removed by soaking.
For a long time unused US stamps that were precancelled for bulk mailers were not allowed to be sold to collectors, but of course were sold by a few different places, the minimum required to be a permit holder for a smaller town was an expected 500 mail pieces.
Most of the dealers could get their hands on thousands at a time, and soaked the gum off to sort of cover up their purchases.

Most yellow or orange stamps oxidize to orange or brown, and a lot of people will reverse this by a quick dip in hydrogen peroxide. I don't, most of the stamps it happens to are inexpensive, and nice ones are easily found.

Things like extra long bits between perforations and routinely shortened, doing that by pulling with a tweezers is generally ok, cutting with an exacto knife isn't. Again, if something is the minimum catalog value of 25 cents like nearly every stamp since the 30's it isn't usually done.

For used stamps, soaking to remove paper and envelope bits is generally ok , In some cases the piece it's on and the cancel showing can be worth a lot more than the stamp so caution is needed.
A stamp with a lot of dirt also often gets soaked.

The grading companies do give very high grades to stamps issued without perforations cut from blocks so you get a stamp with eight others showing in the margins, I don't think that's at all good, but it seems to have become mostly ok. Sort of like trimming a hand cut card like Hostess.


Anything else does happen, and is NOT ok. The degree varies as does how it affects the price.

Removing the perforated border,
adding a perforated border
repairing tears
Painting in details a stamp never had so it seems like a more expensive version.
Fixing thin spots
washing out cancels
adding fake cancels
Faking overprints
Obscuring overprints
Chemically altering the color
rebuilding or adding back damaged areas
Putting on new gum
redistributing the original gum

The expertizers are very good at catching that stuff, and are typically experts in a fairly narrow field.

All that can lead to interesting situations.
Here's a stamp I sent in via a friend.
The first foreign entry of it's kind to be expertized.
But with a fake cancel.
At some point, a used O6 was an easier thing to sell, or higher priced than one that was unused with no gum.
I only know of 6-7 examples of that foreign entry.

Rare, but a bit messed up.
https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...ictureid=25804

Forgive my ignorance (I haven't submitted anything for grading in years), but do the grading companies ask that you disclose known alterations? Is there a question on the submission form about this? Does the form (or the terms and conditions of submission) state that there is an "obligation to disclose"? If it doesn't, maybe it should. Because if there isn't a spelled-out obligation to disclose, then there may not be an affirmative obligation to do so, which leaves it up to the grading companies to discern the alteration. Legally, anyway. Ethically, of course, I would think a submitter should disclose what they know.

I guess you missed this thread, where PSA changed their terms for submitters.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=353374

How many people in the history of PSA have submitted cards noting the alterations they had made?

I actually know one guy that sent in a counterfeit card with details describing the exact differences between it and a real card. It came back from PSA in a 9 slab graded as a real card. It is a longtime friend and fellow member who posted about it on here when it happened.

I know this is slightly off topic but germane to a degree. I submitted a card to SGC a while back. I had this card since the year it was published. I got it in a trade from a friend. No ill intentions on either side of the trade.

Fast forward to a few years ago. I submit it to SGC, it comes back ungraded, signs of trimming.....WTF??? No, not from either of us?? So, I submitted I card I understood to be right from the pack, I had no reason to believe otherwise. No one was going graded-slabbed crazy when I made that trade. So, I doubt highly that it was trimmed much less considered by the friend of mine.

Well now, screw that. I'm done.....

Raw is all, graded is jaded.

Butch.

PSA and grading were all about money and nothing about the hobby from the get-go. Yet people still give them business and clamor for even one grade more.

People buying commons for 1,000's just to participate in the pecker contest known as the registry are the biggest marks ever. Yeah, they may make money and have bragging rights, but the original graders must be laughing their asses off somewhere.

I know I have done my part as I have freed 1500+ from their plastic prisons, even some big boys. If more would do that, the pop reports would become even more meaningless and inaccurate.

But, why are you buying graded just to crack them out? If you don’t like graded cards, why not just buy raw?

I’ve cracked a couple thousand or so. For me, it’s because the card might not be available raw. In my little realm I might have to wait a few years or just never get a card if I’m picky about the container it ships in. Most people grade the decent stuff, so a lot of my scarcer material was put into my collection via cracking the slab open. If I’m looking for a poor grade T206 Mathewson, I’ll just get a raw one, but if I want a card that has ~10 copies known, it doesn’t make sense to be picky. Buy it and crack it.

That makes sense for scarce examples, but a majority of postwar cards are plentiful in raw form.

Fair question.
It's very difficult to buy ungraded star cards in decent condition because dealers with nice cards price them at graded prices or higher (because everyone thinks their cards are better than they are).
I can't stand paying for the grade, but it is what the hobby has deteriorated to. That is why I have not bought much in 2024.

Always knew you were a scammer. Thanks for confirming. FRAUDSTER!

Are you drunk or just mentally disabled like normal? Breaking a PSA slab and putting a card into my binder set is not fraud. There’s not even a transaction, who am I defrauding when I put a card into my personal set? The irony of you calling anyone a fraudster, considering you are a barely concealed one if even barely at all, is quite amusing.

Maybe when you think fraud is not fraud, you think not fraud is fraud?:eek:

I would absolutely love if anyone can articulate a reasonable, logical position using words as they actually exist and are widely used in the hobby and the English language instead of bullshit fantasy definitions morons have made up to mean the complete opposite of what they actually mean and undermine the entire point of a language existing, how this is fraud. Here's a specific example like I was talking about, using the box on my desk.

I bought this piece in an SGC slab. For proof, here is the unique card in its original slab: https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing-car...a/7120-81299.s. I bought it as a complement to my master set build, as a unique 1 of a kind card supplement. Buying it raw is not an option, as this is the only Slavin/Hall partial strip that is known to exist. As I'm keeping it with my Mayo set, I broke it out of the slab. It lives in a cardboard box with my other 19th century pugilists. How have I committed fraud by doing this? Who have I defrauded? Who is the victim? If not criminal fraud but still ethically wrong, how was it wrong to do this? Can we get above a 60 IQ here?

This is all just a bad AI hallucination...:)

Ditto. People: Bill - Mastro - Is - A - Crook!

Mastroenteritis
The mental and bodily agita making you want to puke that comes each time you encounter someone pretending Bill Mastro isn’t what he is, an out-and-out crook.

Mastrophilia -- strong feelings of love for Mastro causing people to ignore or downplay his record.

Indeed


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+1


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BM - “The card it it looks like a football “

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6ed71629ab.jpg

sorry if the image appears a lil bit Crook-ed


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Speaking of former football shaped cards and being Crook-ed, don't forget our good friends at PSA. :D

Ah yes how could we forget the folks over at

Petty Suspicious Authenticators aka Professionally Suspicious Authenticators


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Rich, he stopped by my table at the National in Chicago one year and spoke with me for several minutes. I told him who I was and he told me he was Bill Mastro. When I told him I had heard of him, he said likely it was not in a good way. Anyway, he was pretty good to talk to, but I wish I had asked him more about his early years, though I never pressed him about his demise. Think I told him most people believe in second chances or something to that effect.

Here is an interesting one $2,060 sold for last night...for a PSA 3

100% bank on this card being cracked worked wrinkle and crease removed boom 8 holder. Happens all the time with zero disclosure....it's sad but true.

If you have a great looking eye appeal card with something minor and a auction house lists and documents the write up as such you will do very well. This auction proves that.

https://collectauctions.net/1957_Top...LOT56423.aspx#

I hope Bill is working on a book, and telling it straight; the good, the bad, and the ugly. I can't think of anyone who has experienced more of the hobby's history firsthand, not to mention how much of it he made himself, it would have to be a fascinating read.

Little doubt one of our heroes bought that one.

Yes, this card has excellent eye appeal.

Look at the bottom of the card (edge & corners - both sides). That’s why it was graded a 3. If anything, the auction description was overly positive to the point of being laughable. PSA allows a minor crease for 4s. I’m sure whoever bought this card will get quite a surprise in-hand if purchased solely for thinking a PSA 5.5 is possible let alone an 8.

Now the question I have is if the PSA grader even cross-referenced this card while grading to their own standards. Who knows anymore as I think it’s an easy 4 on a bad day.

My point was the cards final price of $2,060 was that much for a PSA 3 because the card is going to be "worked" aka massaged on the back to get wrinkle out for a 8. They are not paying $2,060 to crack, send as is and try again for a 4 or 4.5. Not a chance.

Isn’t this where that fancy database and AI are supposed to kick in to identify cards that have been previously submitted and now cracked out and altered to get a better grade this time?

I have no clue maybe don't know.

Yep. I encounter cards like this all the time. People often think these are examples of shill bidding or fake sales, but they're usually cards that buyers think are either under-graded or can be improved. The market values card by their potential, not by their current state. Although in most cases, these values are equivalent.

LOL

No way the card is an 8 after the wrinkle is taken out. Has corner wear most evident from the back but can be seen from the front. The lower right corner from the back has a bend which they will have to work some magic on. There is also some surface issues on the right side of his face...mostly in the hat. Very nice 3 but it is going to need a full makeover for an 8.

Some buyer has confidence in his skills.

100%. Upon inspection, the flaws w/ this card stand out.
Whoever spent $2k, I wish them good luck. That is “near mint” price territory

.

Far too much of an undertaking, from what I see. I think they can get more bang for their buck finding other candidates. Even if they trim it and take out the wrinkles making it appear NM-MT, if they do nothing with the surface issue on the right side, it is a 6 at best.

That will change here in about 3 months when he gets this one back from PSA

The Brookie Rookie Crowd.
 

.. He may be a gambler on this particular one , but that card has a mesmerizing effect on many fans of him and that fourth series from that groundbreaking '57 set. Not me though. I just collect flips .


http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...IFECTA_NEW.JPG

This might possibly be the most revolting sentence I have read on this board.

Or the most revealing.

He is just telling you the reality of the business. We might not like it but it’s the truth and I except it…this has all made our collections worth more.

C'mon now. How many of us over the years have bought cards because of the possible expectation that they are or will be worth more than we paid for them.

Rich

Ummm...That is not what Travis was referring to in his comment. You might want to read what he posted again. And he is spot on in his assessment.

Perfect example of:

“Buy the card, not the holder!!”

Alright, I finally finished watching this video. It's definitely not what I call an interview! In an interview, you ask questions and then shut up and listen! This was more like a conversation. It kinda' felt like I was watching a late night talk show, where the host will talk just as much as the person he is interviewing. Over all, I enjoyed it. But yes, I wanted to smack Brian Gray a few times! :D

I do agree with Hank that Mastro should be writing a book about his time in the hobby. He met so many big guys and made so many big deals before this whole Wagner thing. He even said that his grandma found a Wagner! So, it would definitely be a great read!

Is this really the case with this specific card? What would the value of the card be if it had not been trimmed?

It would be worth much less now if Mastro had not touched it, it would just be a nice sheet cut (AUTHENTIC) but still rare Wagner. But keep in mind it's the notoriety of the card driving its extreme value (IMO), not that anyone thinks it's a real pack-issued 8.

Here's my conspiracy hypothetical. I think there is a near-zero chance that it would have survived as a sheet to this day had those guys not cut it up prior to selling it to Mastro. Even if it had come to market as a sheet in a large public auction, someone would have cut it out. My guess is that arrangements would have been made by someone with connections to have it cut "professionally" and then PSA would have agreed to slab it with a numeric grade but would put "Hand Cut" on the label. So it still would be a PSA 8 but just designated "Hand Cut" lol.

I'm not saying that cards are worth their potential to you or to any other specific buyer. I'm saying that the market values them at their potential.

Obviously, to the vast majority of buyers, cards are only worth whatever their current state suggests because most buyers aren't looking to improve cards. But even if just 1% of the bidders in an auction are looking for cards to improve, that would be enough for those improveable cards to be sold at their potential, as opposed to at whatever their current state suggests.

A very common example of this fact is that every time you see a 1986 Fleer Sticker Michael Jordan card listed at auction with the (ST) qualifier, because it has wax on the back, it always sells for much more money than its grade suggests it should be worth. A PSA 8 (ST) is going to sell for something close to what a PSA 8 without the qualifier would go for. Recently, PSA stopped adding the qualifiers, so you'll find them as straight PSA 6s instead, but the effect is the same. These will sell closer to what PSA 7s and 8s go for than they will what PSA 6s sell for. The reason is obvious. It's because the buyers know they can crack the cards out, wipe off the wax from the back with a pair of pantyhose and resubmit it for a higher grade. The same is true for any card with improvable flaws, whatever those may be. It is what it is. But it's definitely true whether we like it or not. In the limit, all cards that can be improved will be improved. It's inescapable.

Just ask Doug Allen.

And his Grandmother wears paratrooper boots.

Bill Mastro Interview
 

Bill Mastro was a frequent advertiser in my monthly sports collector's journal: The Sports Trader, along about years 1968 and 1969. I never received a single complaint on his dealings with collectors at that time. I think he was very young at the time.