Yeah, I actually sold him that Green Cobb, told him it wasn't right, but he didn't care at the time he said because I think he thought he had a fish on the hook. Then a month later he wanted to give it back because it wasn't legit. He sent me emails that said I don't care if its not legit my wife and I just love cards. So I helped him and his wife part with $1500 as I really didn't think he would be dumb enough to do it. Guess I was wrong and now I giggle a little every time he complains.

Does that make me an ass, sure it does. Do I care, no I don't because some times the bully gets punched in the face. But he threatens every few days to beat me up, blackmail me some how, etc. etc.. I have to say I don't like screwing anyone over but man Toppsaholic was the one person I didn't care if I screwed over or not. Sorry if you don't want to deal with me moving forward, I understand and thats anyone's choice.

Biggest card in their auction currently is a Michael Jordan card. Leading bidder has made 20 bids in 6 months and only retracted 4 of them. This might actually be progress!

"PWCC never owned the card. It was purchased from REA on behalf of a client and graded and sold on behalf of another client."

This is a very cleverly phrased denial that could be literally true but is telling in what is left out.

Courtney confirmed this sequence of events in the prior thread:

Spring 2015: Sold in REA as an SGC 50 for $6600 to Brent
August 2015: Sold privately by Brent to Courtney as a PSA 7 for $75k
Oct 2016: Consigned by Courtney to Goldin and won by John Perez for $46,800
Feb 2017: Consigned by John to Brent and sold to unknown buyer for $52,300

Now assuming that the quoted statement by PWCC is true, i.e., that PWCC purchased the card from REA for a client and had the card graded and then sold it for another client, it leaves the mysterious clients as the culprits. And of course probity (though not any privilege or legal requirement) prevents PWCC from naming the clients. See, but I suspect that PWCC's client was the ownership of PWCC and that this whole endeavor was a carefully structured effort to make PWCC a cut-out between yourselves and the card so that PWCC could plausibly deny ownership and blame everything on mystery clients who bought an SGC card under PWCC auspices and just a few months later brought a raw card for PWCC to submit and sell. So, Betsy, just to make things crystal clear please confirm unequivocally that no one who had an ownership in PWCC at the time were the PWCC clients you reference. You need not break your fake confidentiality to do so as I am not asking for a name, just a confirmation that the PWCC ownership isn't the mystery client.

But before you respond please ask your attorney to brief you on the concept of a "declaration against interest"; may be useful information to have before answering.

I would love to see a screen shot of those emails, because I have heard the exact opposite. He said that the person who sold it to him, didn't tell him it was fake, and he paid a lot of money for it.

Yes I thats what I thought as well..

So PSA specifically blesses this card knowing it's part of a live auction, then weeks later, Joe Orlando is just sitting around, or Reza, or whoever, and they think gee maybe we'd like to revisit that, let's reach out to Brent. Makes no sense to me.

Guessing left out of this whole discussion is the part about the buyer threatening to sue PWCC and PSA and blowing the lid off a lot of shenanigans. Just a guess though.

Joe Orlando is pretty easy to locate at a card show. I am sure he will be well aware of the issue, if asked about it in person.

Joe and Reza obviously, assuming Brent sent the card to them, made a considered decision to confirm the grade. It makes no sense that they would spontaneously change their mind. As Steve says, there must be a good reason. As usual, we aren't getting the whole story, even if there is a grain of truth to parts of it.

He sent me several of those threatening messages also.:D I called him out on that Cobb and a few other scams he was trying to pull. He is known for knowingly buying bad items and trying to sell them as good. Very similar to Battlefield but without the photoshopping.

He quit messaging/threatening me after he bought a trimmed T206 and was trying to sell it as good. Guess he could no longer claim innocence after I sent him links to the auction listing that he bought it from that clearly listed it as trimmed.

Right, if they already re-considered and confirmed the grade during the PWCC auction..why change their mind now...they already would of been aware of the past sales of the card and what it looked like when they confirmed the grade..

however, in the end, the buyer of the card did get his money back and pwcc apparently is eating the entire purchase price of the card as they paid the consignor (who made $1300+ on the sale) and not asking for money back from the consignor so there is no real victim here as far as the pwcc auction..

Something like this work? Or maybe this? So defend your dude man.

This may still be my favorite credibility burner, though I am biased. Posts 76 and then 78.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...75#post1196475

need more than that...which cobb are they referring too.......where is the actual payment of $1500 knowing the card is not real...any other correspondece after that..im assuming the sale was not on ebay....there may be more emails...they also not technically agreeing the card is fake...would want to see what you wrote to them too

Since Joe is in a mood to write checks and Betsy and Brent are so keen on cleaning up the hobby, Joe might want to take a closer look at Brent's submission below that the DiMaggio was part of. Many of the cards bumped and before pics are posted on this thread...http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234837 Brent and Betsy ought to be more careful whose cards they are submitting and then selling. :D

24692740 1911 D304 Brunners Bread Ty Cobb PSA 4.5 Sold by PWCC 12/6/15
24692741 1915 Cracker Jack #105 Joe Jackson PSA 3 Sold by PWCC 11/8/15
24692742 No Grade
24692743 No Grade
24692744 1933 Goudey #29 Jimmy Foxx PSA 5 No Record of Sale
24692745 1933 Goudey #149 Babe Ruth PSA 5.5 Sold by PWCC 10/6/15
24692746 1934 Goudey #61 Lou Gehrig PSA 5 Sold by PWCC 10/6/15
24692747 1935 National Chicle #34 Bronko Nagurski PSA 3.5 Sold by PWCC 10/18/15
24692748 1936 World Wide Gum #36 Joe DiMaggio PSA 7 Sold Privately by PWCC
24692749 1940 Play Ball #1 Joe DiMaggio PSA 5 Sold by PWCC 10/6/15
24692750 1940 Play Ball #27 Ted Williams PSA 6 Sold by PWCC 10/6/15
24692751 1941 Play Ball #14 Ted Williams PSA 6 Sold by PWCC 11/8/15
24692752 1941 Play Ball #71 Joe DiMaggio PSA 5 Sold by PWCC 11/8/15
24692753 No Grade
24692754 1957 Topps #95 Mickey Mantle PSA 8.5 Sold by PWCC 10/8/15

I'm sorry I'm not here to indulge you. But if you say you don't care if a card is real or not, then you don't care if its fake either. Can't have both. Mic drop I'm out! Look on the bright side man at least I don't bash you like everyone else on here does...but don't push me too far. ;)

I had to laugh thinking the consignor to REA asked Brent to shill it up... and ended up winning it.


A vicious circle

Jake,
Why do you always got to dispute everyone on this site?
You make yourself look like a complete idiot!
Brad Pencil is one of the nicest guys in this hobby and he is not the con artist in this situation.
Read the darn eBay messages, they can't be edited. What the hell is your problem?

I just don't understand your MO on this site. You are always on it and post about every piece of nonsense there is.
Don't you got anything to do in your life?

Your show is getting stale, you are barking up the wrong tree all the freakin time!!!

+1000000000000 to the first sentences.

Brad Pencil's reputation really should not and cannot be questioned. Don't go down this road Jake. There are more than enough scumbags in this hobby for you to attack to even consider F u cking with Brad. That guy is as honest and decent as they come, and I am proud to call him a friend. He didn't have to come out and say he sold them the card, and yet he did. So what is your theory exactly? That they offered to buy ANOTHER COBB off brad that they knew was fake?
GTFOH defending some shady ebayer over a respected member of this board.

I seriously considered requesting a profile name change to "Archive" a while back during another dust up...then I figured Leon had to put up with enough crap, he didn't need my smart ass to deal with...

Long live Archive...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Somehow these two things don't seem to agree with each other.

I know you said this was the last post on the thread, but there are still real questions to be asked/answered. Here is mine: will the card now be returned to PSA under their insurance policy and bought back down to the original price/grade range and then either cracked or reholdered? If the card is still out there as a slabbed PSA 7, then it's still a problem. And theoretically, if PSA is liable for the incorrect grading, you could recoup 90% of your costs by busting it down to a PSA Authentic or mid-grade and taking the difference in a check from PSA.

I'm sure PWCC won't be completely left holding the bag on this. A bump or two and a wink can easily make up 50k. Just need to make sure the card(s) involved aren't as easily identified from past sales!

Psa
 

John, psa does not refund the submitter of a card anything for an incorrect grade. They will reimburse a subsequent buyer but not the original submitter. I know it seems odd but I have had this happen to me a couple times in the 25 years I have been dealing with psa. They thank you and give you back the grading fee but nothing for the card. You just get it back correctly graded and a refund of the grading fees. I have even experienced this within the last year. It is still their policy.

So psa should be the one paying the buyer who overpaid due to psa,s mistake according to what we have been told.

Again, i think we have not been told the whole story or even necessarily the truth.

I do care if the card is real, not having both...would just like to have one! Showing one picture without any before or after context and refusing to provide doesnt look good. Even selling a fake card for $1500 looks really shady. When it comes to bashing, i think its pot calling the kettle black in this case but thats not really fair to me either. .i never accused of selling a fake card.. I have had arguments whether 2 home runs and a double is better than hitting for the cycle but thats nothing compared to being accused of committing fraud..

I not defending toppsholoc at all. I agree Topps is the worst ebay seller in the world. So your post makes no sense. Now knowing Toppsholic is the worst ebay seller in the world (thus i am not defending some shady seller )would you sell him a fake card for $1500? No one would have a right to question you for doing that? Also when you comment about you dont care if you screw someone over (as another poster in this thread quoted you), because whoever the seller is, well I do care if it was me. I just wouldnt do the deal with toppholic or whether it was battlefield selliing a great graded card. That could be just me that doesnt do that , but I dont think its ridiculous for me to questions others that do.

John, you are upset that you didnt make more on the sale of the altered card and i get that. You made several posts that the net54 threads impacted the final sale value. Did you not? However you did make $1300+, and the card was removed from the PSA registery. You didnt eat the loss, PWCC did on your consignment. The card ultimately was returned back to PWCC, so not sure what your argument is about people impacting the auction when its obvious the auction was unfair to whoever bought the card. Lets not pretend you are not biased no matter what I put on here but i do not think anything i put here on this thread was unfair. You are free to point out anything you think was unfair that i put on this thread and have others chime in.

When i see comments about 'dont you have to do anything in your life' it sort of implies you dont have any real argument. You always appear to be in disputes with others on this board.

Jake,
I hate to tell ya, you are NOT the judge and jury of this hobby!
No one really gives a rats ass about what you think.
It's just annoying as hell to constantly read your whining, especially about subjects that are none of your business.

I understand you are a semi struggling lawyer, do you really think practicing "debate" on message boards is gonna help your career?
It's not!

It just makes you look like a jack ass.

I am not the judge and jury and I agree. Neither are you. Just because you are rich does not mean you can be a bully without being questioned. I dont bring anyone's profession into the post whether you are accurate or not but i not going down that road.

So your post says the selling of your card in the PWCC auction is none of my business. Why post on here then, keep it private. What about the other posters on net54, is it their business or none of their business as well.

I do notice you did not address my prior post at all in regards to its content You just attacked. Maybe you can say that I have no life again. (Some people would say people responding to my posts also may have no life)

lol

(Some people would say people responding to my posts also may have no life)

Yet some others would say they have difficulty reading through grammar and punctuation errors.

I can see the blood pressure rising , John. Im not going to voice my opinion on that sale or the final value from pwcc, but your comment to Jake about made me spit my coffe out laughing. Get him, John!! Lol.

Man, we have a very noteworthy event, a 50K card that PSA supposedly specifically blessed during a live auction after serious questions were raised about it being altered, the card now suddenly gets yanked from the registry, all sorts of questions remain about the supposed explanation from PWCC and the lack of other relevant information, and the thread degenerates into a name-calling and pissing contest.

Excellent point!!!!!

Still waiting on the photos that you said you couldnt download from your phone. Im sure there are a lot of people laughing right now....

No offense but i dont think many net54 posters would be looking for you to endorse any of their posts...

Lets get to issue in hand like Peter S. states...

+1. Don't hold your breath. He said he got them off of his phone. He can't release something he doesn't have.

Peter, I think you're trying to make the situation more complicated than it is. Perhaps it really was sent in for a review, but PSA didn't know the controversy surrounding it at the time? Then later, after the card was already sent back, they were made aware of it and decided to get the card off the market?


If it really was sent in for a review, it was probably overnighted, PSA spent all of 3 minutes looking at it, then it was probably mailed back the same day.

IDK, maybe your conspiracy theory is better than my logical explanation?

If after all that Brent did not make them aware of the controversy when he sent it in, and the reason for doing so, then shame on him. And I doubt PSA was unaware of it even if Brent didn't say anything, do you really think nobody made Joe aware of the thread here?

I think Jake might be secretly working undercover :cool: for PSA/PWCC. Just kidding!

I agree with you David. So far, I feel PWCC has done the right things to make things as right as they can be. :) A lot of the other stuff seems to be guys whining over speculating and losing money. Just not a ton of sympathy out there for that. On the other hand, if fraud or lies are proven against anyone, things can change. But I spoke with PWCC quite some time ago about the card in question. If I recall correctly I told them, if it were me, I think the deal should be undone at the buyer's discretion. It has been and still the griping and conspiracies..oy vey..move onto the next speculation...

..And I think it's good it came off the pop report (if it did) and it's not in that holder any longer. That being said, to me it didn't look like any worse of a grade than I have seen on a daily basis. :) How is that for an underhanded compliment and back-stab in the same fell swoop?

**of course PWCC is an advertiser but it's not like they are being protected, this is just my opinion so far....

PWCC never should have sold the card without full disclosure of its history of alteration/restoration. It's that simple. The card's history was a clearly material fact, known fully by Brent who personally was involved. How has PWCC done the right things here, Leon? Is a fraudulent omission a "right thing"?

I think they sold a card without full disclosure but it was a graded card. They undid the deal or allowed it to be undone. That was the right thing to do, imo. And I am done as I stated my opinion already. Unless there is something different I will just give the Gorsuch stare. :)

To beat the horse again, that it was graded does not excuse the absence of disclosure, particularly where Brent knew the grade was the result of alteration/restoration and that the card had been in a three grades lower holder previously. And I don't think we have the full story on post-sale events.

Oh, and let me add...
:)

I have seen in some auction houses that a card used to be a SGC7 and the card now is a PSA 6.......basically when its a positive thing for them to disclose....

Just a simple question and maybe someone knows the answer. In the comic book community, a comic book can be restored and given a better appearance. The graders can detect all the restoration done to a comic and give it the applicable grade with a purple label that basically means "restoration has taken place". Are the graders of cards unable to detect the restoration techniques? I am in the camp, that I see nothing wrong with restoring a card, as long as it is taking away something that shouldn't have been there to begin with from the factory (surface wrinkle, ink mark, etc).

As an outsider, and hindsight being 20/20, I really don't understand why Brent didn't just kill the auction when he saw how much was being made of the grade, etc. Why chance having to eat that kind of money if things go bad, like they did. Especially if you compare your commission to the amount you may have to refund, it seems like a no-brainer. Brent should know that nothing ever gets by this board, there are way too many knowledgeable people on here. Also, I don't get why PWCC would post a couple of comments and in the second one state that this is the last time you're going to address this issue. It seems like a really big issue with potential fraud, and if you are just an innocent auction house, why not answer as many questions and be as transparent as you possibly can? Again, I'm new to this issue and these are just my 2 cents.

Joe K

Because lawyers.

It seems to me PWCC only did "the right thing" after Courtney blew the lid off of this issue. I truly believe PWCC would not have done ANYTHING if Courtney had not come on here. So, I won't give PWCC the "easy pass".

We have similar threads/issues over their years where people were caught doing shady things and only did "the right thing" after getting called out on here.

Mark