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TOLSTOI cards
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Hi James (53toppscollector) However, I have never seen the Bender (trees) with a TOLSTOI back, So, I am inclined to agree with Pat R, that it is possibly a grading labelling error. I have annotated this entry on my list with a ? TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
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t206resource has 60 unconfirmed Tolstoi's out of the 314 on the list. I have seen at least one example of all the confirmed Tolstoi's except Bender with trees. From Teds list I've never seen the Following Tolstoi's and they're not in any of the pop reports Bliss Casey Knight (bat) Knight (portrait) Merritt O'Neill Pfeister (seated) I have seen these that are not confirmed on Ted's list Beckley Donovan (throwing) Fromme Knabe Street (portrait) Sweeney, Bill |
Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff
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https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...onSGC40xxx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eetCap11xx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...vereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...bbBat12xzz.jpg ...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty OK guys....switching back to the main track regarding the subject matter....Joe Doyle. Here's a story which you may find interesting. Imagine pulling a Joe Doyle Nat'L card from a Piedmont pack when you were a teenager. Or, your Dad's visit to Atlanta in 1910 acquiring a Ty Cobb/TY COBB card for you ? ? One of the most unique T206 collections in the hobby is on display at the University of Georgia (Athens). Former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's collection of approx. 1000 tobacco cards were donated to Georgia U. in 1983 (along with Russell's historical papers). Russell was an avid BB fan as a teenager. At the age of 13 (1910), he started smoking cigarettes (Piedmont was the available brand in his area of Georgia). He pulled 1000's of T206 cards from the packs he purchased. His T206 set has 497 different cards. However, no Wagner or Plank in his collection. Not unusual, since these two gems were not marketed with Piedmont backs. His teenage smoking habits came to an abrupt end in Fall of 1911, when his parents enrolled him into Gordon Military Institute. It is my impression that his BB card collecting also ended at that point (judging from the few number of T205 cards in his collection). P.S. In 2008, I became quite interested in this story regarding Richard Russell's collection, since I acquired a number of cards (duplicates) from his original collection. A relative of his had consigned approx. 200 cards (mostly T206's) to a dealer in Atlanta (who listed the cards on ebay). He was selling many of his duplicates which were found in a box in a desk drawer from Russell's estate. The group of T206's which I acquired were all Piedmont 350 backs, including 7 of the the rare "Elite 11" cards. So, the point of this story is....before Larry Fritsch discovered the Joe Doyle Nat'L card, it was an unknown rarity, just waiting to be discovered. TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
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Ted do you have scans or know who confirmed these Tolstoi's Bliss Casey Knight (bat) Knight (portrait) Merritt O'niell Pfeister (seated) |
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Ted for accuracy on the Tolstoi list I would appreciate if you would respond to my question.
These are confirmed and they were on your old list and Scot readers Tolstoi survey but you don't have them on your new list. Beckley Donovan (throwing) Knabe Bill Sweeney These are not on your list and I have them confirmed Street (portrait) Fromme Attachment 481026 Attachment 481027 These are on your new list but weren't on your original list so they are recently confirmed or mistakes Bliss Casey Knight (bat) Knight (portrait) O'neill Pfeister (Seated) I haven't seen or found any records of these Tolstoi's do you have scans or a record of who confirmed these recently? I did find where you confirmed the Merritt in Scot's survey do you have a scan of that card? Quote:
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Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff
Pat R
I've been away since last Friday. I was set-up at the Philly Show (3 days). Visiting friends this week. When I return home, I'll try to sort thru my records to see what I come up with. Meanwhile, when are you going to correct your "buddies" (or whoever) at T206Resource regarding these 5 cards: Ames (Hands Above Head) listed as "confirmed" with an AB460 back. This is absolutely a NO-PRINT. Furthermore, the T206Resource checklist regarding PIEDMONT 350-460/42 includes these 4 subjects listed as "confirmed": Bergen (catching) Chance (batting) Murray (portrait) Wiltse (Portrait - With Cap) These 4 cards are absolutely NO-PRINTS with PIEDMONT 350-460/42 backs. For over 15 years, there are three of us, who individually, put together our P42 runs. And we have compared our experiences collecting this sub-set. We are convinced that T206Resource is inaccurate, listing these 4 cards as "confirmed" with this back. TED Z . |
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Here's the Wiltse Ted Attachment 481065 |
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The 4th inaccuracy in T206Resource 's PIEDMONT #42 checklist is Overall (Hands at waist level). The PIEDMONT #42 sub-set is complete with exactly 72 subjects....63 from the 350/460 Series and 9 from the 460-only Series. TED Z . |
Ted I'm not sure why you're asking me about someone else's list but some research indicates the following cards in question were at some point confirmed by the following people....
Bergen (catching) Piedmont factory 42 Anonymous Ted Z Brian W Murry (portrait) Piedmont factory 42 Dave Wipple Ted Z Scot R Overall (hands at waist) Piedmont factory 42 Ted Z Scot R Chance (batting) Piedmont factory 42 Had your initials on Bill Browns super set spreadsheet |
Why do we have to repeat the same old stuff, over and over again ?
What you have posted are 15-year old data when Bill Brown first posted his T206 super-set spreadsheet in 2006. For the most part Bill's Excel sheet is accurate. However, a number of wrong inputs did get reported. Subsequently, as new information regarding T206 front/back patterns as a result of my theories (and other's theories), I contacted Net54er's who had inputted questionable front/back combos on the spreadsheet. Starting with Ames (hands over head) / AB460. The guy who inputted this admitted he made a mistake. I contacted the person who provided the Overall (hands at waist level). He realized he had made a mistake, since his card was the Overall (hand at face level). Regarding Bergen.....here is my post on a thread regarding P42 cards dated: 3-16-2010 Quote:
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Furthermore, Adam Goldenberg, Craig Wright, and I were working on PIEDMONT #42 runs. The 3 of us kept in touch, trading and selling P42s to each other; and, comparing notes. I think Adam completed his run. I am not certain if Craig did. All three of us agreed that only 9 subjects in the 460-only Series were printed with P42. Several years have past since then, and NO additional new P42's have been discovered. Chase (Trophy) Latham Marquard (follow thru) Merkle (throwing) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (batting) Schaefer (Washington) Seymour (portrait) Wiltse (portrait-cap) TED Z . |
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I asked you about the Tolstoi list you brought up the Ames and the Piedmont 42's. I saw your post on the Bergen from 3-16-10 but you then re-confirmed Bergen on 8-22-10. Quote:
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T206 REFERENCE.....interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff
This ends my discussion with you. Once again, for the umpteenth time, you have "side-tracked" the Topic of this thread.
Go play your "negative games" with some one else. This ends any further discussion with you....PERIOD ! Dated 7-9-2015..... Quote:
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Ted,
How have you been? Thanks for this massive contribution that you've consolidated and curated. |
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Really Ted? Maybe you should pay more attention to what you post. You made the sarcastic comment. If you have a problem with the t206resource list why don't you contact Tim he's the one that makes the changes to their lists. |
Adam Goldenberg and Craig Wright have contacted t206resource regarding P42 cards.
Jonathan Weil has contacted T206Resource regarding SOVEREIGN cards. Others have in recent years contacted T206Resource regarding adding new inputs, or correcting Checklist info. All of which to no avail (or response.) TED Z . |
Well I don't know what to tell you Ted they are not my lists. What's wrong with the Sovereign lists?
For what it's worth there is a Piedmont factory 42 Murray in the PSA pop reports. |
T206 REFERENCE.....interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...onSGC40xxx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eetCap11xx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...vereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...bbBat12xzz.jpg ...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty OK guys....we are switching this "train" back onto the main track. Let's hear and see some more stuff regarding Joe Doyle and/or Chet Hoff....cards, stories, etc. They started pitching for the NY Highlanders. Both 5' 9" and both had short ML careers (approx. 5-years). Doyle a right-handed pitcher. Hoff a Southpaw pitcher. Here's their major difference....Joe Doyle lived to age 66. Chet Hoff lived to the grand old age of 107. Regarding their BB cards...... The Joe Doyle Nat'L is the scarcest T206 subject in this 524-subject card set, with only 9 of them (or perhaps 10) that are known, as of this date. The Chet Hoff's card is by no means a rare card; however, it is one of the tougher cards to find in the T207 set. Your stories and/or your questions are very appreciated. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e887999e_c.jpg----https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...etHoffT207.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...tHoffT207b.jpg I will continue their stories with these two very similar events with Doyle and Hoff when their Major League careers started...... August 1906, Doyle in his rookie start hurled a six-hit shutout vs Lajoie's Cleveland Naps at the Highlander's Hilltop Park. Doyle's variety of pitches bewildered the Naps, including striking-out Lajoie. Quote:
TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
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I found it and it turns out it's another PSA label error. Attachment 481423 |
I know PSA won't do it, but Nat Turner, if you are reading this thread, you should offer anyone who holds a PSA T206 that isn't labeled properly, either with a mislabel like that, or the generic "Sovereign" instead of Sovereign 150/350/460 etc to re-submit the slab and have it re-holdered and re-labeled correctly, with the pop count updated accordingly, for free.
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Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff
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Excellent research. No further comment, necessary. TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...onSGC40xxx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eetCap11xx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...vereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...bbBat12xzz.jpg ...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty The Joe Doyle card was printed with 7 different T-brands (listed below). Displayed here are the Joe Doyle cards from my three T206 sets. https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...nt350SGC40.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...esovereign.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...joedoylesc.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...t350SGC40b.jpg-----https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...ereign50xb.jpg-------https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...joedoylesc.jpg The Joe Doyle card is most available with the PIEDMONT and SWEET CAPORAL brands. Followed, by these brands....listed in order of availability...... POLAR BEAR SOVEREIGN OLD MILL TOLSTOI EL PRINCIPE de GALES TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
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Hi Scot The Murray and the Overall mistakes are not your fault. One of the first threads regarding PIEDMONT #42 cards dates back to December 2006. https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...3456&highlight Brian Weisner posted this list of his P#42 cards..... Hi Ted, Here is the list of my 42's: BAKERTHROW COBBBAT OFF COBBBAT OFF CRAWFORDBAT KLEINOWBOSTON KONETCHYGL LOW LATHAMPOR LATHAMNY NAT MANNINGPITCH MATHEWSONDARK MATHEWSONDCAP MCINTYREBR&CH OVERALLTHROW PELTYVERT SWEENEYTHROW SEYMOURTHROW SMITHCHI&BOS SNODGRASSCATCH WAGNERRIGHT WHITECHI However, this Overall card was inputted into the Super-Set spreadsheet as the 460-only series version of Overall (Hands at Waist). It should have been entered in as the "Hand at Face" (350/460 series) version. Your 2005 - 2006 publication of "Inside T206" inspired many of us Net54ers to seriously explore the complexities of the T206 set. Resulting in discoveries, such, as the...Elite 11.....Exclusive 12.....Mutually-Exclusive 350/460 Series.....Red-Ink Twins....etc., etc. Which provided us clearer understanding of how these cards were printed. Thereby informing us of valid T206 front/back combos. Take care my good friend, TED Z . |
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If anyone cares to understand the T206 landscape as of 2009, which is not all that dissimilar from today's landscape, see:
https://oldcardboard.com/t/t206/Insi...al-edition.pdf Some fun history, anecdotes and theories. |
My post wasn't a criticism towards Scot or anyone else, I was just pointing out that Bergen, Murray, and Overall hands at waist were previously confirmed on other lists too and they were still on Ted's list until Adam questioned them in 2016.
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Hey Pat You are constantly "obsessed" with trying to prove me wrong. And, once again you have failed. I shared P#42 cards (trading and/or selling them to Adam), and knowledge of them with Adam Goldenberg circa 2014 - 2017....in order to help him put his P#42 run together. So, what the hell are you talking about ! ? Here is one of my posts which contradicts your "bull-crap". Note the DATE. Posted 7-9-2015 Quote:
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Ted 7-9-2015 is when you posted the original list but you edited it several times until 9-21-2017. If you click on the blue arrow in Adams post that I quoted in my post you will see that his post was on 4-9-2016
asking about those three that were on your list. |
Yes, I edited my 7-9-15 post to include Tinker.....
Last edited by tedzan; 09-21-2017 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Added Tinker in 350/460 series. What really annoys me about your "bull-crap", Pat, is that your nasty comments are suggesting that Adam and I were having a dispute over these cards. Which is a blatant LIE ! Hey Net54ers....let me tell you this..... I helped Adam Goldenberg with his PIEDMONT #42 collection and his AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 collection in recent years. He and I have met at the National several times, and we have had some great conversations in person (and via email, or over the telephone). For this man (Pat) to engage in his constant meaningless attacks towards me on Net54 is reprehensible. This forum is not intended to operate like the various toxic social media. TED Z . |
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Hey Ted, great work!....i assume you saw this?
jennings (hands over head) brown lenox found https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...5R5K9n_Mykih-A Just referred back to your post 171, and you of course predicted this gem would be found one day....and today is the day! |
The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards
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Hi Jim Thanks for posting this information. Yes, it's a great feeling when you predict something in the T206 set, and it becomes true. Here is my current checklist regarding the confirmed brown LENOX cards...... 350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs Bradley (bat) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Jordan (bat) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (bat) Overall (yellow sky) Pfeister (throwing) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) Tinker (bat off shoulder).......... ? Wagner (bat on right shoulder) Willetts Willis (bat) I still expect these 7 subjects from the 350/460 series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs...... Berger Mullin (bat) Pelty (vertical) Steinfeldt (bat) Doc White (pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Wiltse (pitching) 460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs Chase (trophy) Latham Marquard (pitching) Merkle (throwing) Schlei (portrait) Wiltse (portrait-cap) I still expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs...... Schlei (batting) Schaefer (Washington) Seymour (portrait) TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
Ted before you accuse me of attacking you here you know I sent you a private email over a year ago about using information I posted about the Brown Lenox as your own.
I posted this thread on 5-9-15 with no responses Quote:
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https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240525 Incidentally I told Art Martineau about the Jennings 3 weeks ago but I was waiting for the auction to end before posting about it. |
Theory......350/460 series Mutually-Exclusive cards
Hey guys,
Once again Pat R has "shot himself in the foot" ! I presented my theory about the Mutually-Exclusive printing of the 350/460 series cards on this forum on April 7, 2010. Pat's above post (#1336) is full of fabrications. And it has become very tiresome. Here are several excerpts from my Net54 thread on April 7-8th, 2010. Take the time to read them, then tell us: does this sound like I stole this theory from someone else ? Here is my original presentation...... Quote:
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This story continues. If it is of any interest to any of you guys, click on this link: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122474 Meanwhile, let's hope Pat R is eventually cured of his "Ted derangement syndrome" that constantly attacks me with his fabricated "bull-s**t" posts, that "hi-jacks" that given thread's meaningful conversation on said Topic. TED Z . |
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This post has nothing to do with the Brown Lenox and you know it. At least I show you enough respect to answer your questions. In the thread you posted a link to why did you go back and "correct a typo" on 1-14-2021 in all the posts that have your list in them in a thread that was last posted in on 4-24-2010? |
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I am not the one who starts these negative, meaningless diatribes. There are very few threads in which I have posted in recent years in which you have had anything positive or meaningful in your responses to my posts. You are constantly "hi-jacking" an interesting (or meaningful) discussion to insert your "negativism". To be honest with you, yes I the react to your horse-crap. But, seriously speaking, I feel sorry for you. You have a certain talent in doing research in this hobby that is good. But, you negate all that with your constant meaningless attacks. I try to avoid such attacks....but, when you accuse me of "stealing" my theory from some one else, I am not going to allow you to get away with such a dishonest accusation. As they say, if you have nothing good to say about some one, then don't say it at all. This forum was not intended to operate like the toxic social media ones do. Finally, I have never initiated a negative comment on you. So, why do you persist to attack me ? ? TED Z . |
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Once again you throw up a smoke screen to avoid answering a question that makes you look sneaky. Why would you edit several posts in a thread 10 years after it was last active I can't think of many reasons why someone would do this. |
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Now, do you mind if the rest of us return to the main Topic on this thread ! ? TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
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No Ted it's not to complicated I know exactly what you changed and I knew you wouldn't admit it. You removed Ames from one list and added him to another and put corrected typo as a reason for editing it. In your edited post there are 9 cards that you expect to be found with a BL460 back but in Johns unedited post he asks you about the 8 cards you listed and you forgot to change the exclusive 8 to 9 in your own post when you edited it 10 years later to add Ames to the list. Quote:
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Funny thing is you said you owned one and had it on your AB460 list for years and went back and edited all of your lists that had him on it. But you couldn't edit this one where you claim to own it in your complete AB460 subset because it's on the old board. Quote:
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You accuse me of attacking you but find it okay to attack t206resource for the same mistake that you made for years. |
Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...onSGC40xxx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eetCap11xx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...vereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...bbBat12xzz.jpg ...... Piedmont ...... Sweet Caporal ..... Polar Bear_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____Sovereign ........... Hindu ........ American Beauty Hey guys.....I'm just trying to interject some humor here, and as LEON has suggested....each post should display some BB cards. Anyhow.....1000's of T206 collectors would love to have what I refer to as the "orange Wagner".....but, there are less than 100 of them available. And, at ridiculous prices. So we have to be content with another fine-fielding Shortstop by the same name who I refer to as the "blue Wagner". Cards of Charles "Heinie" Wagner are very available. The "Bat on Right" pose is in the 350/460 series in print Group B. Comprising of 16 (or 17) different T206 backs. The toughest being....AB 460....DRUM....LENOX....UZIT. I have the AB 460. The DRUM, LENOX, and UZIT will be a quite a challenge to find. I've always liked the two T206 poses of this Wagner that essentially complement each another. I cannot recall of any other T206 images of the same player similar to this where the pose of one card is essentially the inverse of the other one. I thought this may indicate that he batted both ways. Not so, he was strictly a Right-handed batter. Of course, there are 2 identical action poses of Chase and Matty with different colored caps. And Tinker with bat off & on. However, I do not see these pairs as equivalent to the blue Wagners' uniquely related images. Having said all that, it's time to display some blue Wagner cards. I have a lot of these to display, but Net54 limits us to 18 images/post. I will show more in my next post. http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...m022705A_1.jpg------------https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...agnerBatRt.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...gnerBatRtB.jpg .https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...dSovSC350b.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...PdSovSC350.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...E460Wagner.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...rPolarBear.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...nerOldMill.jpg .https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...460WagnerB.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...PolarBearB.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...erOldMillB.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Great cards (as always) Ted. The Jennings 350/460 poses come to mind. They obviously aren’t as close as the Wagner cards you posted, but they are similar. I’ll add a Wagner pic so I’m not getting off track too badly.
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
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Good morning, Sonny You're "not getting off track"....the two Jennings (350/460 series) cards are somewhat similar. But, not the identical inverse images as the two Wagner cards are. Anyhow, thanks for posting, and your Wagner proof card is really cool. TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
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Hey Ted, Here’s the Uzit from my binder.
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Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
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Hi Jason Thanks for posting your UZIT card of Wagner. It's not often that you see one of these gems. TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
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I used to have this Wagner. It was almost enough to start me on a backrun; I am thankful I did not undertake that frolic
Nice cards Sonny! |
Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do
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And, here's a pack for it...... https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...atecigpack.jpg . . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...atecigpack.jpg TED Z T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists . |
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Hi Ted!
My current t215 Pirate - an upgrade from the “other Wagner” |
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Double post.
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