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03-30-2008 11:11 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: barrysloateJim- you are articulating the problem. Win/win doesn't work here. I have an even better solution: why doesn't PSA start a program where anyone who spends a certain amount of money with them each year is automatically entitled to a free half grade bump on five cards of their choice. That's win/win. The consumer wins, PSA wins, and like Jay so keenly observed, they are creating value out of thin air.

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03-30-2008 11:13 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JimCrandellIts like resubmitting all of your cards but putting a minimum grade requirement of 8.0--whats wrong with that?

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03-30-2008 11:27 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: barrysloateActually, while it is a common practice, and I thought of it as I was posting, I think there is something wrong with that, and I always did. Even in that situation if you are asking a company to review a card, I don't think the consumer should be able to dictate parameters to the grading company. That's like taking a class and telling the professor your minimum grade requirement on the exam. Because we come back to the same argument: what if you resubmit one of your 8's to PSA with directions for them not to grade it less than an 8, and upon reexamination they discover to their chagrin that the card is trimmed and never should have been graded? Why aren't they allowed to rectify the error? If your answer is hardly anyone would resubmit a card under those conditions, then that's fine with me. If the so-called "grading game" ceased to exist that would be a plus for the hobby. It would reduce considerably the number of cards resubmitted. Which of course goes against the whole purpose of the half grade program- creating a fresh stream of revenue for the company. It's not about grading, it's about the bottom line.

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03-30-2008 11:34 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JayJim--I hope the way the market prices cards going forward is that 8.5s are worth more than 8.0s and 8.0s are worth less than they used to be. That way there is no value created and the system is fine. My sense is that as this year rolls on both 8.0s and 8.5s will be worth less than 8.0s were last year, based on the economy, and seperating out the impact of PSA's actions, everything else held equal, will be impossible.

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03-30-2008 11:39 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JimCrandellJay, You may be correct??? I view it as value creation however--we'll see. This is largely based upon how stingy PSA appears to be in giving out the 8.5 grade. Also remember, one can even get 9s as I got four upgraded to 9 in my first 67 card submission I for one would be prepared to step up my budget materially if cards say dropped by 20%.

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03-30-2008 12:05 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI do think it is a little bit apples and oranges with respect to calling it the equivalent of a review with a minimum grade requirement. Most of the time when you're submitting a card with a minimum grade requirement, you're submitting a card graded by another service, for crossover. In this case, you're submitting PSA-graded cards that were graded using a different grading scale, for review in homes that it will adapt favorably to the new scale. However, if PSA got it wrong the first time, you don't have to deal with any consequences - it's all upside. The problem with that, of course, is that it is NOT "win/win." It's "win" for the submitter, and "win" for PSA, but it's definitely not "win" for the collector who buys the cards that didn't get the bump. That collector, unfortunately, has no way of knowing whether the cards they're buying have been resubmitted for a bump. And by plainly stating that they will not downgrade any card they find to be overgraded upon review, they're also saying - indirectly, by association - "Any card you receive that has a straight grade may or may not be accurately graded." -Al

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03-30-2008 12:18 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JimCrandellYeah, But I'm not selling my cards.....collectors/ dealers will assume unless compelling evidence otherwise that all 8s have been resubmitted.

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03-30-2008 12:27 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusBarry, Al, you say it very well. A grading company should be the bastion of integrity for the hobby. Good faith purchasers are relying on the good will associated with their name to make purchasing decisions. That reliance is violated when the grading company consciously releases back to circulation cards in their original slabs that they know are either overgraded or altered. As has been pointed out, that is a win/win/lose. Win for the grading company (they don't have to compensate the card owner for getting it wrong the first time and they also encourage more re-submissions), win for the card owner (his card is not downgraded, though I might add if the grading company were to compensate him for a downgrade, what has he lost?), but lose for good-faith-third-party purchasers (they are buying an overgraded or altered card). If this practice is okay, then how does it differ from an auction house prepping a card for grading? That too would be the same win/win/lose. The consigner wins because he will get more for his card, the auction house wins because the more the card sells for, the more money they make. But the good-faith purchaser loses becauses he just bought a prepped card. The view on this board seems to be unanimous that such an action by the auction house cannot be justified on the grounds that it is a rational profit-maximizing action. So why then is that same profit-maximizing rationale used to support an action by the grading company that has the same deleterious impact on good-faith-third-party purchasers?

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03-30-2008 12:43 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Dan BrettaI have no dog in this fight as I really couldn't care less...put me in the Frank Wakefield/Dan McKee card grading sucks boat, but I have to say that PSA offered a new service - half grade bumps - that's all you're paying for and that's all they are offering with this service. Why should PSA go beyond that with this service? If they stand behind their product then there is no reason to look for alterations if they have already in the past deemed the card to be unaltered and gave it a grade. Quite simply they are looking at cards that were not good enough to be bumped to an 9, but they could be better than the 8 they were originally given because at the time they didn't have half-grades. Of course this was a transparent means for them to fleece the registry folks and knowing the competitive nature of their customers they knew it would work and it has. It's nothing more than that....PSA will NOT and probably should NOT answer Corey's questions from a business standpoint they have nothing to gain.

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03-30-2008 12:55 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus"PSA will NOT and probably should NOT answer Corey's questions from a business standpoint they have nothing to gain." Dan, you're probably correct on that. Inasmuch as I harbor no illusions PSA would be willing/able to shoulder the financial burden of compensating owners of all cards that are found to be altered, I see no chance they will ever amend their official statement. And from the business standpoint, while I'd love to argue that offering such compensation will generate such good will as to be a business home run, for all I know the financial hit could be so great as to potentially put them out of business. Going forward, what I suspect will come from all this is PSA on a case-by-case basis will decide what to do with altered cards in their holders. For their best customers or perhaps for people who make the loudest noise, they will do something. But I don't expect to see any official pronouncement.

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03-30-2008 01:49 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JimCrandellI think its funny that when someone agrees with you that the person says they say it well even if they have a hard time putting together a coherent sentence(maybe I am guilty of this too). Anyway, Dan says it well(ha ha). My prediction will be that Joe will not amend the company's policy. I don't think you will be seeing them downgrade any cards or take any cards out of circulation either. If that ticks off the Corey Shanus' of the world so be it. Dan--the cards can go right to a 9(I had four of 67 do this). And I don't think its succeeding because of the competitive nature of registry participants(although most are very competitive); its succeeding because its a tremendous economic proposition for those who own a lot of PSA 8 cards.

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03-30-2008 02:07 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Jerry Hrechka I believe that PSA has changed their Flips, so as time gos by it will be possible to tell which cards have been submitted for the .5 Bump & which don't qualify for the upgrade. I think that a year or 2 needs to go by, before prices for straight grades and those with the half graded added, become accurate.

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03-30-2008 03:17 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Stevebased on his comments that Joe always returned his calls, //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Your quote above says 'comments' as if I said it more then 1x. I was specific that it was 1x and I never said he returned my call. Seems like my comment(s) is/are not the only thing(s) that you have mis-interpreted. You have gone from using JC in your opening post, to claiming this was not a thread about JC, back to it was what JC said that gave you the impression. You have changed your story at least 3x. Nothing more for me to say here, I'm done with this thread. Steve

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03-30-2008 03:45 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JimCrandellDon't worry Steve--he will find another reason to start a thread criticizing me very soon. Stay tuned.

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03-30-2008 04:43 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus"I don't think you will be seeing them downgrade any cards or take any cards out of circulation either." Jim, while really not necessary, thanks for comfirming that. Or have I misinterpreted that one too. As to who that ticks off, I think it's been demonstrated that it ticks off a lot more people than just than Corey Shanus.

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03-30-2008 05:11 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JimCrandellPSA is evaluating cards for a half-point bump(or perhaps more)--nothing else--thats what this is all about--not determining if they made a mistake on a card at some point in the past. Oh, I forgot--Steve--"well said".

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03-30-2008 05:18 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: barrysloateIsn't part of cleaning up the hobby correcting errors? That doesn't seem so farfetched.

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03-30-2008 05:21 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Dan BrettaBarry, PSA is not involved with the "Cleanup" of the hobby. In case you hadn't noticed. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-30-2008 05:26 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: barrysloateI have noticed. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-30-2008 06:01 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusSo, on that note maybe we have arrived at the answer which was the question of this thread -- over time, if not already, PSA cards WILL sell at a discount relative to SGC cards.

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03-30-2008 06:18 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JimCrandellWhat do you mean we? I don't. The PSA Set Registry trumps all.

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03-30-2008 06:25 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusMY GOD!!!!! WOW!!! Nothing more to add.

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03-30-2008 06:30 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JimCrandellCorey, If not already is just a dumb, uninformed statement. Over time? 1 year, 20 years? No time soon unless something changes dramatically.

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04-01-2008 01:58 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: SteveJoe replied to my email and he said: The warranty applies to EVERYTHING we look at. If the graders determine that be the case then the warranty applies. I have taken the liberty and forwarded the email to Barry Sloate. That way no one can say that I am making up what was said afterall one could say that they have 2 Wagners. I hope that this now puts this issue to rest. Of course their will be those that will tear his reply apart and ask 10 more questions. I hope I have helped. What they do behind closed doors, again I have no idea. Steve

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04-01-2008 04:14 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSteve, I don't mean to split hairs but if PSA finds that an altered card is in one of their holders will they refund the cost of the card to the buyer or will they simply refund SMR value?

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04-01-2008 05:14 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: barrysloateI responded to Steve's email that Joe's answer was unclear. What exactly is that warranty?

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04-01-2008 05:52 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusSteve, Thank you for following up on that. Does Barry have permission to post the email?

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04-01-2008 06:12 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBarry, I suspect that if an altered card in a PSA holder was sold in a Mastro auction for, let's say, 10K, PSA won't be refunding that money anytime soon. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

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04-01-2008 07:10 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: SteveBarry can do as he pleases. Now it is the warranty that is unclear............... Steve

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04-01-2008 07:27 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSteve, I'm sure you can appreciate that a warranty is not a warranty if one purchases an altered PSA card for 10K and PSA offers 2K to take it off your hands.

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04-01-2008 07:30 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: barrysloateCorey- I deleted Steve's email after I responded to him and for some reason can't find it. It was just a single sentence, to the effect that if PSA finds something on a resubmitted card, the warranty will apply. But I have no idea what that warranty is.

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04-01-2008 08:00 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: leonI am not sure but I think the warranty is 3 yrs or 36,000 miles, whichever comes first....

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04-01-2008 08:09 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: barrysloate<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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04-01-2008 09:46 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusI'm going to choose to not read into this anything other that PSA intends to act in a completely reputable manner. They will take out of circulation re-submitted cards that they determine are altered and, pursuant to their warranty, offer fair compensation to the card owner. So this being the case, I assume then that anybody re-submitting his/her cards will not only have no problem with PSA checking for and removing from circulation those that are altered, but indeed will insist that PSA do so. It would be the ultimate win-win. The hobby will win because altered cards are being removed from circulation. And the card owner will win because he/she will (i) have the piece of mind that his/her cards (many of which might have been slabbed in grading's early years when grading company's were not as skilled at detecting alterations) are being re-examined pursuant to current standards, (ii) will be fairly compensated for his/her altered cards and thus will not be asked to take a financial hit, and (iii) have the satisfaction of acting in a manner consistent with the best interests of the hobby.

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04-01-2008 10:07 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Tom NievesThe PSA Financial Guarantee Of Grade & Authenticity The PSA Financial Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA. <a href="http://psacard.com/verify.chtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://psacard.com/verify.chtml</a> ////////////////////////////////////////////////// Corey, unlike SGC's guarantee, PSA's is not limited to 30 days and the original submitter. And I'm quite sure you won't find any newspaper articles about Joe Orlando restoring cards. Just something to think about...

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04-01-2008 10:53 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusThanks for that information. This is the SGC guaranty: "SGC guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the original submitter of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the original submitter may resubmit that card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade. THIS RESUBMISSION MUST BE REQUESTED WITHIN 30 DAYS OF RECEIPT FROM SGC." (sic) I agree with you how it appears to read and I have a call into SGC to request clarification. If in fact their policy is to not stand behind altered cards beyond the 30-day period or if sent in by a non-original submitter, then I have a problem with that. Alterations that get by grading companies by their nature are not readily obvious, and I don't see why somebody relying on SGC's expertise should be without recourse if through no fault of their own either the alteration is discovered outside the 30-day period or the card sent in by a non-original submitter. As to your remarks about restoring cards, please elaborate.

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04-01-2008 10:54 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthPSA has always had a guarantee. It used to be on their website in several different places with a simple explanation. It was also footnoted in their financial statements. I am not sure if the guarantee is still in either of those places. However, present or not, I am very confident that Joe's claim as to a warranty, is nothing more than empty words. Does anyone actually believe that Joe would actually put in writing that they did not have a guarantee or warranty? Or that upon resubmission for the 1/2 grade that they will not look for altered cards and remove them from circulation? PSA is a business and no different than SGC and they will buy back cards when they have to or are made to. On several instances I have submitted the same card multiple times to GAI, SGC and PSA and all too frequently results in completely inconsistent grading results. Not only do the grading companies not agree with one another but upon resubmission to the grading company the card was originally slabbed by, the card comes back a different grade or is then rejected. Grading companies are merely issuing an opinion which is not the same as an absolute. That gives them a lot of wiggle room for making "judgment errors" which may not be able to be proved. And certainly not easily proved while a card is sealed. Bottom line is the buy back policy for any company for altered or over graded cards is employed ONLY when one of the two scenarios exist (1)not buying it back is not economically feasible or (2)not buying the card back had certain and sudden adverse effects on public opinion. I don't see any grading company actively looking to buy back cards, expensive or not, in order to clean up the hobby. If it makes all of you more comfortable to think that a real guarantee is in place because it is printed someplace, great. With the sheer number of cards I see floating around that appear altered or at best significantly over graded, my guarantee is that more than 99% of them would never be reacquired by the grading company who graded them. Greg

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04-01-2008 11:15 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: SteveJeff I agree with you. My only problem with this was how some people jumped to conclusions stating that PSA would not take cards out of circulation that they found to be altered/counterfeit during this resub program. The fact of the matter is that they never said any such thing and that is what I as trying to convey all along. Will they? Who knows? Saying your card(s) will not be downgraded means simply that. It certainly does not mean that if they find a card that they now feel is altered/counterfeit that they would send it back with a wink. And it was clarified by Joe in his return email to me in which he answered my simple and straightforward question. " Joe what happens if PSA finds during this resub program an altered/ counterfeit card? Anyway, BOTN as usual is correct too. Both SGC and PSA keep the warranties vague. Both are the best we have in 3rd party grading. Steve

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04-01-2008 12:04 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: barrysloateOne of the things I don't understand about the warranties is that if a grading company is forced to buy back a card, at what level will it be? Let's say you bought a card years ago for $200 and today it is fairly worth $1000. If that card is subsequently deemed altered, what can you reasonably expect to recoup?

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04-01-2008 12:20 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus"PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA." Those words, as posted by Tom, are part of PSA's guaranty. Clearly there is potentially a big loophole -- they can always argue that they graded the card in accordance with their standards and under their procedures, and still missed the alteration. So tough luck. I don't think though it would end there, though. Inasmuch as many alterations are black and white matters that can be proven as a matter of law, PSA would have a heck of a hard time explaining how they missed such an alteration in this instance but caught it in others. And, even if they could explain, that would be a "win the battle, lose the war scenario" because what they would be arguing is that their standards and procedures are inadequate to catch scientifically detectable alterations. So, bottom line. If I had altered PSA cards that I could PROVE are altered, I'd return them to PSA and invoke the guarantee.

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04-01-2008 12:24 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: James GalloI have been keeping up with this thread and in my opinion this would solve all the problems. Upon resubmition of any card if PSA finds the card to be altered they buy it back at an agreed upon cash price based on what the card was graded at the first time around. It would not be hard to make a few phone calls to some of the big dealers and auction houses and get some numbers for a card and then agree to a price. EVERYONE knows that the SMR is a joke price wise and that PSA does not care to put any work into it. PSA should desire that all there cards are correctly graded and so should the owner of the card. I bought 5 cards back to PSA last year at the national because I thought they were OVER graded!!! They found none to be over graded which I still find to be laughable. Regardless if there was a risk of your cards going down a grade or up wouldn't that be what you would want. Do you want your cards to be graded correctly I know I do. The final solution to this is that if any card is down graded PSA compensates you with submission credits. This would put a minor burden on them capital wise and would only encourage you to submit more cards. In the end it is all about consumer confidence and if that does not exist then there is a big problem. I have talked to SGC in the past about a misgraded card. Although it was not with Dave F and it was not in great deal it seemed clear to me that if a card was found to be misgraded they would fix it and compensate the owner. The end result is that I feel both companies will deal with the guanentee on a case by case basis and both leave a lot to interpretation. Lastly, I see PSA losing ground to beckett in modern cards and SGC in pre war, so they many continue to hold the 40-70's era's but the rest are not as impacted by the registry and the prices are adjusting so that psa card do sell for either less or about the same as SGC and BGS cards of the same grade. James G PS Has Joe called Leon back yet? IMO that is really bad as Leon is not some no name and also rather rude of Joe. Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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04-01-2008 12:31 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: SteveCorey I have a minor question, how many PSA graded cards do you own and how many cards did you resubmit? Steve

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04-01-2008 12:38 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: leonJoe O never called me back. Some might say that it was a stacked deck and I wouldn't be fair or objective and it was a no win for him. That is far from the truth. I would have reported back as to exactly what he said and would have even made sure by reading back his quote(s) to him to be addressed on the board so as NOT to misinterpret anything. I am not sure how I could have been more fair. Also, this board is very open and Joe could even come onto this board and make one statement about their company policies......It can be done effectively and has been done in the past....best regards

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04-01-2008 12:38 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusYour damages would be to put you in the same position you would have been in had the grading company not missed the alteration when you first submitted the card. That would be then $200 plus accrued interest thereon (and the grading company would be entitled to sell the card and retain the proceeds). You would not be entitled to lost profits (i.e., the difference between what you paid for the card and what it is worth today). The reason for that is if the grading company had detected the alteration at the outset, you would never have purchased the card and therefore would never have had the opportunity to earn that profit. In regard to an argument that you would have put the $200 into another card that would have similarly appreciated, damages such as that would be regarded as too speculative and therefore unawardable.

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04-01-2008 12:56 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusSteve, To answer your question, I own one card that is in an altered holder. And I own a N28 set of 50, only the baseball of which are slabbed. I have not re-submitted those cards. The provenance of that set is that it came from a long-time collector who had it in his possession for many years, so I have a high comfort level none of the cards have been altered. EDITED to add: James, interesting though that in regard to the Lionel Carter collection, arguably the most significant offering of high grade post-war cards in recent memory, Mastro chose to go with SGC over PSA.

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04-01-2008 01:50 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Bruce Babcock<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/.Pictures/Grading%20Mishaps/1895Shindle.jpg"> Sorry to interrupt this thread with a scan. PSA. Aren't they the guys we trust to detect evidence of trimming? Are there specific written criteria, invariable from day to day, which the PSA graders will use to differentiate 8s from 8.5s? Or do they just wing it? Seems like a pretty small distinction to make. Can the difference between an 8 and an 8.5 of the same card be seen by looking at scans? Can the difference be seen in an auction catalog? Can the difference be seen inside the holder? Can the difference be seen outside the holder? Are these distinctions worth paying for? Can these tiny distinctions be trusted when other more easily detectable differences are sometimes missed? <img src="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/.Pictures/Grading%20Mishaps/honusheiniewagnerpsa.jpg"> Each to his own, I guess.

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04-03-2008 06:28 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: SteveI agree with you how it appears to read and I have a call into SGC to request clarification. Corey any word on your call into SGC? Bruce I seem to recall that SGC also has blundered big too. Steve

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04-03-2008 10:37 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusDave Forman and I had been playing telephone tag and we finally spoke this morning. He has authorized me to post the following information. The SGC guaranty quoted earlier is the guaranty SGC had when he bought the company. It is not indicative of their current policy and they will update their website to reflect this. Under the current guaranty, there is no 30-day period and it will apply to non-original submitters. In fact, Dave described to me a recent situation where SGC honored the guaranty and bought back a number of trimmed cards that were slabbed in 1999.

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04-03-2008 11:22 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: SteveThat is great to know, btw didn't he buy this company almost 3 years ago? I would have thought something as important as a warranty would have been updated long ago. Better late then never I guess. For the life of me I can't even find the current PSA one. Steve

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04-03-2008 11:27 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Anthony N.<<James, interesting though that in regard to the Lionel Carter collection, arguably the most significant offering of high grade post-war cards in recent memory, Mastro chose to go with SGC over PSA.>> In most cases, but the '41 Goudeys were in PSA holders. Were they fishing for one particular whale? And if so who were they counting on to be the underbidders? Or were they grade shopped?

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04-03-2008 11:34 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanusSteve, Can't disagree with you on that. I know people have been privately expressing surprise to me the guaranty read that way because to their knowledge SGC (at least since Dave took it over) has never tried to deny its coverage based on the 30-day period or that the card was sent in by a non-original submitter. So maybe, never being a point of contention, it slipped under the radar. But bottom line the website should reflect current policy and I told Dave that, and he agreed.

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04-03-2008 12:09 PM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: GlynWe stand behind EVERY card in our holders, and the guarantee is not just for 30 days nor is it limited to the submitter of the card. The website will be ammended to reflect the current policy as soon as we possible. We thank everyone for there support of SGC and if you have any other questions please give me a call.

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04-06-2008 12:23 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: SteveCorey I wonder how many people (Over the years) read the guarantee had a problem card and didn't try to reconcile figuring they did not qualify? I find it disheartening that even if it happened to one person it is one person too many. Steve

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04-06-2008 05:18 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: LetsGoBucsWell this is certainly a tough thread to keep track of I'm fairly uninterested in graded cards per se, but economics and pricing does interest me. Over time I think you won't see additional value created by the new policy PSA has....perhaps in the short term there will be those that generate additional value by getting an 8.5 and then selling. But I would tend to believe that after a couple of years that the 8.5 cards will be selling for more than an 8 used to sell for....but that 8's will sell for less than they used to sell for - and perhaps significantly less. By not lowering any grades I would have to assume that some 8's are actually 7.somethings that were missed and over time people will adjust there purchases in line with that. Not to mention that I think that if your collecting 8's today that tomorrow you'll want 8.5's. I think that this will be especially true with lower grade for EX and EX/MT - I assume 5's and 6's? A 5.5 will be a true EX and a 5 will become EX- (which looks incredibly familar to how grading used to be done by the amateurs!!) And buyers will pay the EX price for the 5.5 but something less than today for the 5. Just my discounted two cents worth

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04-06-2008 06:29 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: Brian<<not one of the 500 largest holders of psa graded cards has or would submit their cards with the sole purpose of ridding the hobby of altered cards>> Jim, can you post the list of 500 largerst holders of psa graded cards? No need to rank them, I'd just like to see the 500 names.

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04-06-2008 06:36 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: JimCrandellBrian, People would pay me a lot of money for that information and you want it for free? Lets Go Bucs, I disagree on 8s going down because there are so few 8.5s being given out. Likely that over time that PSA cards will sell somewhat in line with their SGC counterparts with PSA getting a premium due to the registry for 1948-1975(all sports) and SGC getting a premium for many issues prewar. Also disagree that 8.5s will be the "new 8" as again there are so few 8.5s being given out making collecting a set in 8.5 near impossible.

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04-06-2008 06:42 AM

PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

Posted By: BrianI am sure some might pay for it but not me. I don't believe for a second you have an accurate list of the top 500. And I certainly don't believe you know each of those 500's collecting strategy and/or criteria by which they might resubmit. I do agree with you that most collectors wouldn't martyr themselves to clean up the hobby. A better hobby is great, as long as it doesn't hit one's bottom line it seems. But stating as fact that you know the top 500, you know what they have/haven't done and what they will do is a stretch.

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