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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Ron Santo in and Johnny Evers out????<br />Unfriggingbelievable. The Crab not only was a great player with the Cubs, he put the woeful Boston Braves on his back in 1914 and led them to a world title (their only one). He was a great fielder, very good hitter, but more importantly one of the most intelligent on the field ballplayers of his era. He and Eddie Collins in the AL were the stellar second basemen of their era and both deserve to be in the Hall. <br />Santo was a very good player but in his era he was hardly the equal of Evers in his.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I guess I'll stand corrected. I still find it remarkable that anyone would have voted Williamson the best player no matter how good a fielder he was. I also find it remarkable that he was a good fielder. Have you ever seen a picture of him? He was huge.<br /><br />Rhys, can you post a photocopy of that article without damaging your guide? I think it would make very interesting reading.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>The section of the guide is pretty long and would take about 10 pictures to scan. Plus, I sold my guide to a friend about 3-4 months ago so I do not have it in my hand. I do have a Bill James Book that he uses to paraphrase much of what I just said from the 1894 guide which is called, "Whatever happened to the hall of Fame" and this information is printed on pages 350 and 351 of that book as well. I would be happy to post pictures of those pages if you like.<br /><br />I do think Williamson belongs in the hall of Fame, but I do not personally think he was the best 19th century player, but it is absolutely impossible for anyone to look at baseball in 19th century and make objective statements through 20th century eyes as all we know is the modern game. It is also interresting to note that Williamsons career and most likely his life were cut short by an injury suffered on Spaldings World tour and most people blame Spalding for the accident.<br /><br />Rhys
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Paul, as pointed out before, the measure of a great player in the 19c was not your bat. It was your glove.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Dave Rey</b><p>Nineteenth century baseball was very analogous to what men's fast pitch softball is like today.<br /><br />Anybody that has played men's fast pitch knows that the team's best player (not counting the pitcher -- who is BY FAR the most important fast pitch player) generally plays third base.<br /><br />The third baseman in fast pitch generally plays about halfway up the baseline to pounce on the inevitible plethora of bunt attempts that define men's fast pitch offense, where the pitcher zips 80 mph pitches in from 45 feet and your best bet is to try to bunt or close your eyes and swing as hard as you can...<br /><br />Baseball in the late 1800s was pretty much the same. Very few great offensive plays, so the best plays on defense usually define who wins and who loses. A great pitcher and a cat-like third baseman can be a potent men's fast pitch combination -- as they were in nineteenth century baseball.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I'm sure it's true that fielding was valued more highly in the 19th century than it is now. But I think it's also true that Cap Anson and King Kelly were two of the most highly regarded players of their time, and that this was due mostly to their bats. So I don't think hitting took a complete back seat to fielding.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Ozzie Smith and Brooks Robinson are considered a great players, mainly becuase of their defensive skills, but that is exception and not the rule, just as Anson and Kelley being noted for their bat back then is the exception.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I kinda thought that in the beginning the focus of play was between the baserunners and fielders; and the pitchers were to not interfere with a batter's ability to hit the ball. Heck, a batter could demand a high or low pitch.<br /><br />That shifted gradually with almost annual changes allowed to pitchers' deliveries to the point of allowing sidearm, then overhand pitches. As pitchers began to fool the batters, the focus shifted to a batter's prowess. Slicing the pitch into foul territory and other legal tricks of batsmen became important. Changes of the rules throughout the 19th century were employed to maintain a balance between the pitcher and batter.<br /><br />And although fielding was a skill of major importance during this period, so was pitching and hitting. Top hitters, pitchers, baserunners and fielders were all stars in the 19th century, as they are today.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p>The Cobra
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I would vote in Phil Rizutto, Phil Niekro and Don Sutton...obvious choices all. Oh, sorry - damn, I forgot they were in already <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> ...okay then, since they let in those guys, let's add Kaat and Oliva....and Maury Wills....hmmm...well, Al Oliver isn't that far behind....how about George Foster? Steve Balboni?<br /><br />When are they going to build the "Hall of Longevity"? ...or the "Hall of Popularity"? <br />
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>glynparson</b><p>gavy cravath, roger maris, and dave parker
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>For everything he did for baseball on and off the field.<br /><br />You'd be hard pressed to find someone who was involved in baseball in more positive ways than Lefty. 5+ decades of baseball..... PCL, Major League, Japan, Pitcher, Batting Champ (all time single season Hit King for 70+ years), Ambassador, Coach, Manager, and a SF icon.<br /><br />There is a reason a bridge is named after him in San Francisco. Other than DiMaggio and Mays, O'Doul is the most famous ball player from the city by the bay.<br /><br />My grandpa (born in SF in 1901) only talked of 2 ball players, Babe Ruth and Lefty O'Doul. When I was a kid, I thought O'Doul and Ruth were the best 2 ball players ever!
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Minnie Minoso, Lefty O'Doul, Ron Santo, Cecil Travis, Tony Oliva, Bert Blylevin, Billy Martin and Andre Dawson.<br /><br />Next to Mantle, who was a better all-around player in the A.L. than Minnie Minoso in the 50s? He got a late start because of the color barrier, endured a tremendous amount of abuse (just check out is record-setting hit-by-pitch totals), and still put up a decade of all-star numbers. Why I seem to be just about the only guy pushing for Minnie's induction is beyond my comprehension ...<br /><br />Cecil Travis is another one of those guys whose rejection by HOF voters puzzles me greatly. The only knock on him is he didn't play long enough. Well, what do you expect from a guy who lost a couple toes from frostbite fighting in the Battle of the Bulge? Compare his stats to other HOF shortstops ... most aren't even close (sorry Joe Tinker) ...<br /><br />Both of these guys are still alive ... I'd love to see each of their smiling grins standing at the podium in Cooperstown ...<br /><br />Billy Martin, by the way, was simply a more volatile and more successful version of Leo Durocher. He just didn't have the good fortune of being buddies with Frankie Frisch. Ron Santo was one of the greatest third basemen who ever lived. Tony Oliva was flat-out the best AL hitter of the 60s (sorry Yaz). Bert Blylevin was better than at least a dozen HOF pitchers. Andre Dawson was simply a monster player. As for Lefty O'Doul, his contributions to Japanese baseball are enough to put him in ... and his .349 lifetime batting average.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Minnie Minoso got a late start? He got his first MLB at bat at the age of 23. He reeled off about 12 consecutive full time seasons a couple of years later. I wouldn't say he had a late start. He made great use of his time in the bigs. He probably deserves consideration for the HOF based on the criteria of some of the inductees already enshrined. <br /><br />Jackie Robinson got a late start. He was about 28 when he got his start. There's no doubt that anyone of color back then endured a lot of crap. Thank goodness that's in the past. By the way, look at Africans or dark skinned people playing European soccer these days, they're being treated today like Jackie Robinson was back in 1947.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Once bunted into a triple play, in another instance was picked off 1st base unassisted by the pitcher. Renowned for inept fielding, yet has a lifetime BA of .342 over thirteen seasons. The Louisville Slugger: Pete Browning.<br /><br />Never to be acknowledged, never to be forgotten - like so many others.<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />Another, who like O'Doul, had a lifetime average over .340 is Dave Orr. Who is a member of the small club of players who have hit over 30 triples in a season (lifetime BA .342)<br />
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>YES minoso got a late start....he got to the majors at 27 in 1949 for a cup of coffee,then was sent down for 2 years.then,when he was finally brought back to the majors at 29 he then had a nice career. up until the steroid era his stats from the age of 29 to 40 compared to any player ever, and was better than most hall of fame players. 29 is very old to start in the majors ...now imagine if he did start at 23 what his career would have looked like.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Dennis, <br /><br />When do you think Minnie Minoso was born? When do think he had his first day in the big leagues? <br /><br />I've read twice now (in this thread) that he didn't get his start in the big leagues until he was about 30 years old. Maybe it's the reference material I read. Can you please tell me what reference material you're using. <br /><br />Thanks!
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>he was born in 1922 <a href="http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/M/Minoso_Minnie.stm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/M/Minoso_Minnie.stm</a> baseballreference.com says 1925 they are wrong...check any other reference
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Assuming the same birth date but three years earlier, then that would have made him 26 when he first hit the majors and 28 when he started to reel off full time play for about a dozen years. If that's the case then he probably left a few good years behind him after he started, maybe even his better years, you just never know. <br /><br />Thanks for the information. I trust BBRef a bit too much I guess. <br /><br />
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>just compare minosos rookie year to the gil mcdougald (of the yanks,who was voted by the sports whiters the ROY)and tell me how anyone could vote mcdougald the rookie of the year over minoso. if you pick minnies worst year among his first 10 and give hime 5 more like it and you will see a hall of fame career.if you pick 5 more good ones you see a true superstar hall of famer. the sudden drop in minosos stats in 62 were due to a broken leg(not age). after that injury he was thru in the big leagues....but continued to play in the mexican league for a lot more years.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>There seem to a quite a bit of controversy about Minnie's age. Whether he was born in 1922 or 1925, the guy is a bonafide HOFer in my book. Here's a few comments from others about him:<br /><br />Bill James considers Minnie Minoso the 85th best player in the history of the game ...<br /><br />"Minoso didn't get to play in the majors until he was 28 years old, but had a better career after age 28 than almost any Hall of Fame left/right fielder," writes James. "Minoso hit for power, drove in 100 runs like clockwork, was a Gold Glove outfielder and one of the best baserunners of his time. Had he gotten the chance to play in the Majors when he was 21 years old, I think he'd probably be rated among the top thirty players of all time."<br /><br />Paul Soglin:<br /><br />"He was 21 in 1945 when he played his first fall season of Cuban Baseball with Maraino hitting .294," writes Soglin. "The next year was he hitting .309 for the New York Cubans. The following season, 1947, Minoso again led the New York Cubans as they captured the Negro National League pennant and easily defeated the Cleveland Buckeyes to win the Negro League World Series. In that Series, Minoso was the offensive star, batting over .400 ... Some say Minoso was born in 1925. It doesn't make a bit of difference. It would have meant three fewer potential seasons in the majors. He didn't need the three years. Minoso languished for two years in the minors once Cleveland signed him in 1949. They didn't understand his style of baseball-speed, hustle, and potentially leading the majors with hit by pitches was not a white 'Yankee' thing."<br /><br />Here's an interesting question: If Minnie and Ron Santo played for the Yankees, and not for the White Sox and Cubs respectively, would they be in the HOF?<br /><br />
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Once Minnie Minnoso made it to the majors he was tremendous. Black players should never be denied the Hall of Fame because of their race. <br /><br />Lefty O'Doul as a ballplayer was on the borderline of the Hall. But fully deserves the honor based upon his contribution of developing baseball in Japan which has truly made the game international.<br /><br />Peter
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p><a href="http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/frankleftyodoulcard" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/frankleftyodoulcard</a>
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Frank O'Doul and his career .349 AVE!<br /><br /><br />Santo average more RBIs per year than Mantle, and both Santo and Minoso had the same amount of 100 RBI years as Mantle (4), but I still dont see them as a HOFer.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>daryle</b><p>William Ellsworth Hoy, better known as Dummy? Or has someone listed him and I missed it?
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>daryle</b><p>After posting that I found where someone listed Hoy........and I agree
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Cecil Travis! I've posted about his Hall case on this board before. He's still alive so this would be the time to put him in.<br /><br />
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>RC McKenzie</b><p>Gavvy Cravath, Tommy John, Dave Kingman
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Bobby Mathews, Bill Dahlen, Ron Santo, Wes Ferrell + Ken Boyer.<br /><br />Can we vote anyone out?<br />
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Billy Stair</b><p>Pete "Freaking" Rose...... IF the juicers of the modern era (Mac, Sosa and ALL the others) get in Charlie Hustle DESERVES to be there.<br /><br />Bill
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Doc Cramer surely does not belong in the Hall. He played in a great hitters era but had no power, didn't take many walks, was a poor base stealer and even though his best asset was his BA he did not even hit .300 for his career. Forgotten OFs of the same era such as Wally Berger and Bob Johnson were much better players although their careers were a bit short to merit Hall consideration.<br /><br />Dummy Hoy was better than Cramer but if he were not deaf his name would never come up as a candidate. Hoy was similar to Brett Butler who was a fine player but also not Hall material. Even if Hoy was responsible for umpires hand signals I don't think it is an innovation that rises to Hall standards. Some way or another, before Hoy came around, the umps managed to make known what their calls were.<br /><br />I should note that the above comments are made with the idea that players such as Lloyd Waner and Rick Ferrell also do not belong in the Hall. If they remain in then yes, by all means, put Cramer and Hoy in. Then make room for Bobby Murcer, Ken Boyer, Vern stephens and a hundred other superior players.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>Big Ed Delahanty had some big numbers.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />We should e-mail this thread to the Hall of Fame. I like Bill James's idea, the Hall really belongs to all baseball fans. There really should be some provision for fans to vote on Hall of Famers. Let me put it this way, we can't mess things up more than prior Hall of Fame voters. There are at least 50 guys there right now that don't belong.<br /><br />Peter
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Ed Delahanty is in already and the Hall doesn't care what we have to say. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I will go with:<br /><br />Pete Browning<br />Ken Williams<br />Buck O'Neil<br />Harry Stovey<br />Roger Maris<br />Shoeless Joe Jackson<br />Tony Mullane<br /><br />I don't want to see Pete in. This is like the whole Susan Lucci thing. We will bypass him until after his death and then put him in. <br /><br />They did the cruel deed to Leo Durocher, Leon Day and probably Buck O'Neil.<br /><br />DJ<br />
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>This is off the top of my head, and I'll try to clairfy things later, but I can't resist jumping in quickly now.<br /><br />My guys:<br /><br />Dummy Hoy<br />Lip Pike<br />Pete Browning<br />Tony Mullane<br />George Van Haltren<br />Jack Glasscock<br />Harry Stovey<br />George Gore<br />Mike Tiernan<br />Dick Redding<br />John Beckwith<br />Alejandro Oms<br />Oliver Marcelle<br />Chet Brewer<br />Dobie Moore<br />George Scales<br />Quincy Trouppe<br />Luke Easter<br />Alan Trammell<br />Joe Gordon<br />Bert Blyleven<br />Goose Gossage<br />Tony Gwynn<br />Cal Ripken<br />Lou Whitaker<br />Mark McGwire<br />Dick Allen<br />Ken Boyer<br />Ron Santo<br />Andre Dawson<br />Bill Freehan<br />Bobby Grich<br /><br />Pete Rose and Joe Jackson and Ed Cicotte are good enough to be HOFers, but they ahve issues, obviously.<br /><br />Yeah, I know that's a lot of guys, and I'm probably missing a couple others I like. Ideally, I would replace some guys in the Hall who I don't think are as good with the above guys, but, of course, that's not possible. Rube Marquard, I'm looking at you!<br /><br />--Chad
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>"Ed Delahanty is in already and the Hall doesn't care what we have to say."<br /><br />Now that's just plum embarrasing. <i>Who was the old timer I was thinking about</i>... I'm going back to my Beanie collection now.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>dd</b><p>Deacon Phillipe<br />Sherwood Magee<br />Gavvy Cravath<br />Bill Dahlen<br />Lefty O'doul<br />Ron Guidry<br />Joe Wood<br />Joe Jackson<br />Pete Rose<br />Ed Cicotte
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Joe Wood<br />Joe Jackson<br />Ed Ciccotte<br />Lefty O'Doul<br />Pete Rose (ya don't have to like the guy, and I don't)<br />Rich Gossage<br />Ron Santo<br />Gil Hodges<br />Jim Rice<br />Andre Dawson<br /><br />Remove:<br />Fisk<br /><br />
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>Fisk?.. He's exempt from removal now that a part of Fenway is named for him.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />You've got to be kidding, Carlton Fisk was one of the best catchers ever. There are a dozen other catchers you would remove before you removed Fisk.<br /><br />Peter
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>The HOF should consider creating a Pioneers of the Game section and include deserving AA members that have been excluded for so many years. If you look at the enshrinees of the HOF there are plenty of marginal players in there. The 19th century HOF players all have great stats (pitchers with 300 wins and hitters with high BAs) but there are a few from the 19th century that, based on the existing membership, should be in. Bob Mathews for example is 3 games shy of 300 wins. If he had 300 wins he'd be in already. There are a lot more players. Bob Caruthers has a lifetime win percentage of near .700 and he's not in. He's got over 200 lifetime wins and less than 100 lifetime losses. Only one other player has done (Pedro Martinez) this and he's still playing. Pedro's 8 losses from leaving that elite group of two. Those are just two pitchers. There are plenty of hitters which can easily have a case made for them.
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Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Leon Day was informed of his election to the HOF on his death bed. He died before the induction ceremony, but by all accounts I read he fully understood he was elected and was very happy.
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