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-   -   1963 Topps checklist question (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=284250)

Kevvyg1026 06-16-2020 03:59 AM

Great work. So the 11 cards with a blue border and red inset circle are: 451,457, 462, 465, 472, 477, 480, 490, 492, 495, 502.

And the 11 cards with blue border and orange inset are: 453, 455, 468,470, 481,483, 485, 488, 508, 510, 511.

The nine cards I show with Red border and orange inset are: 449, 460, 464, 467, 475, 478, 479, 493, 500 plus there is the Mets team (473) and the 431 Red border checklist.

The nine cards with red border and green inset are: 452, 459, 469, 471, 476, 484, 487, 501, 506, plus there is Al Lopez (458, Mgr card) and 496 (multiplayer rookie card).

The yellow border cards are: 447, 448, 450, 454, 456, 489, 498, 505 (all blue inset) plus 461, 463, 474, 482, 486, 494, 497, 504, 507 (red inset) and four cards (509 checklist, 491 Craft mgr, 466 rookie card, 503 Braves team) that I'm not sure which row they are on.

jmoran19 06-16-2020 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026 (Post 1990529)
I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

#1 math is wrong, should equal 264. Excluding series 1 CL 6 rows printed twice, 4 rows printed 3 times

jmoran19 06-16-2020 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toppcat (Post 1990538)
I made an Excel sheet then saved it as a JPG-if anyone wants the spreadsheet just PM me. This covers 1961-72 and you can see, if it's correct, which series the SP's might be possible within. 1971 looks weird in Series 3 & 4 as well, don't have time to look at uncut sheets right now, have at it.

1971 series 3 and 4, 2 extras due to coin checklist printed first in series 2 run. 1970 series 1, no extra checklist. 1970 series 3 def. 109/110 card series and has 44 cards printed 3 times (DP), includes Carew and Lou Brock.

John

Kevvyg1026 06-16-2020 06:13 AM

In 1967, there were 110 cards in the first run, but only 109 unique cards. The first checklist was in two separate rows.

jmoran19 06-16-2020 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026 (Post 1990843)
In 1967, there were 110 cards in the first run, but only 109 unique cards. The first checklist was in two separate rows.

Not disputing that, problem is 65 were not printed 3 times etc. add it up you have over 264 cards being printed in series 1

Cliff Bowman 06-16-2020 07:11 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026 (Post 1990828)
Great work. So the 11 cards with a blue border and red inset circle are: 451,457, 462, 465, 472, 477, 480, 490, 492, 495, 502.

And the 11 cards with blue border and orange inset are: 453, 455, 468,470, 481,483, 485, 488, 508, 510, 511.

The nine cards I show with Red border and orange inset are: 449, 460, 464, 467, 475, 478, 479, 493, 500 plus there is the Mets team (473) and the 431 Red border checklist.

The nine cards with red border and green inset are: 452, 459, 469, 471, 476, 484, 487, 501, 506, plus there is Al Lopez (458, Mgr card) and 496 (multiplayer rookie card).

The yellow border cards are: 447, 448, 450, 454, 456, 489, 498, 505 (all blue inset) plus 461, 463, 474, 482, 486, 494, 497, 504, 507 (red inset) and four cards (509 checklist, 491 Craft mgr, 466 rookie card, 503 Braves team) that I'm not sure which row they are on.

On the 6th series red based cards I don't know which rows the Mets team card, manager Al Lopez, the multi player rookie card, and the #431 checklist are on. One of them is next to Brinkman but I can't tell conclusively. I can confirm that manager Harry Craft is on the 6th series yellow based blue inset circle row, he is next to J C Martin.

BillP 06-16-2020 07:42 AM

Circling back to the first series from 1963, in particular the 4 cards with different color borders on the bottom, fairly being one of these. I think that it was mentioned that these cards are on both sides of the middle of the sheet. So by there being 3 variations blue, white and yellow, does this imply that there are 3 printing sheets? A B and C? or a fourth where no variant color border shows up? a D sheet. So the 1st series may have had 4 different sheets. Card #29 and the debusschere definitely are on different sheets.

BillP

Cliff Bowman 06-16-2020 07:58 AM

3 Attachment(s)
I am now 99% certain that the card next to the 6th series red based yellow inset circle Ed Brinkman is the Steve Dalkowski four player rookie card. Dalkowski and the Mets team card both have the copyright going past the yellow ink and into the white edge, I didn't see any Lopez cards that did. The difference then between the Dalkowski and the Mets team card is that the U.S.A. is closer to the end of the yellow ink on the Mets card, there is a bigger gap on the Dalkowski. The first scan is from the off center Brinkman card, the second scan is a Dalkowski back, and the third scan is a Mets team card scan. It appears to me that the sliver on the back of the Brinkman and the Dalkowski are a match.

toppcat 06-16-2020 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillP (Post 1990858)
Circling back to the first series from 1963, in particular the 4 cards with different color borders on the bottom, fairly being one of these. I think that it was mentioned that these cards are on both sides of the middle of the sheet. So by there being 3 variations blue, white and yellow, does this imply that there are 3 printing sheets? A B and C? or a fourth where no variant color border shows up? a D sheet. So the 1st series may have had 4 different sheets. Card #29 and the debusschere definitely are on different sheets.

BillP

I don't think any series or sets issued in standard size by Topps has had more than two half sheets involved. Probably any size card actually now that I think about it, although it seems that way sometimes. The way the printers set it up was each half of the sheet (132 cards here) was called a slit and there is slit a and slit b for a full (264 card) sheet. I have found that to be consistent in the documentation that still exists. There were however, multiple press runs where sometimes changes were made between each.

Kevvyg1026 06-16-2020 08:22 AM

Clarification: When there were 110 cards printed in a series, it typically used a pattern where there were six rows of 11 cards printed twice each on the sheet and four rows printed 3x each.

But as I mentioned earlier, checklist 1 was on two of the four different rows that were printed thrice. Thus, in a print run of 110 cards, with 109 of those cards being unique, there were 66 cards printed 2x each (so 132 cards). 42 cards were printed three times (so 126 cards), and since the checklist was on two of these rows, it was printed 6x. This makes 109 unique cards (66+42+1) with a total of 264 cards (132+126+6).

Cliff Bowman 06-16-2020 11:17 AM

From my previous post I can now say 100% that the 6th series Steve Dalkowski four player rookie is the card beside the Ed Brinkman and is then on the red based yellow inset circle row. The only cards that were printed upside down as opposed to the other cards on the same row were checklists, four player rookie cards, and the League Leader cards. The League Leader cards are only in the first series. The manager cards and the team cards were printed in the same upright pattern as the player cards so the backs are not upside down like the four player rookie cards and the checklist cards on the printing sheet.

Kevvyg1026 06-22-2020 06:45 AM

1963 variations
 
I looked at approximately 20 of each of the cards discussed by Mr. Verechek in his article regarding the slight shift variations in some 1963 series 5 cards. Besides those that he wrote about, I see that each card exhibits other variations. For example:

On # 439, Don Zimmer, there is a 3 stripe vs.4 strike variation (far left of card). The 3 stripe version has the bat on the inset pointed directly at the demarcation between the red border & Zim's collar. Also, the 3 stripe version has the elbow on inset touching the inset circle. The four stripe shows the bat pointed well above the red border, and there is a gap between elbow and circle. There are also differences in the stat box sizes and the trademark positioning between the two varieties.

On # 438, Wes Stock, the inset head is either under the gray or not. On cards where the head is not under gray, we see additional white area by the 3 on back of photo, and there is a sharper boundary between inset circle and pants. On the back, the top line of stats extends to end of yellow box.

All other cards show multiple variations, as well.

Kevvyg1026 06-22-2020 06:55 AM

1963 zimmer variations
 
https://www.net54baseball.com/album....ictureid=28515

Cliff Bowman 06-22-2020 12:53 PM

Rather than continue on this thread I am going to start a new thread of my attempt to construct the 1963 Topps 6th Series and 7th Series print sheets, I am waiting on a bunch of miscut 1963 cards from eBay, COMC, and Dean’s Cards the next week or two and then I will start the thread. I have figured out 22 of the 24 horizontal row edge cards, I haven’t figured out one from each series.

BillP 06-22-2020 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman (Post 1992772)
Rather than continue on this thread I am going to start a new thread of my attempt to construct the 1963 Topps 6th Series and 7th Series print sheets, I am waiting on a bunch of miscut 1963 cards from eBay, COMC, and Dean’s Cards the next week or two and then I will start the thread. I have figured out 22 of the 24 horizontal row edge cards, I haven’t figured out one from each series.

great work. looking forward to that view.


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