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That being said my big problem with PSA is that they've done nothing but obfuscate and make non-statements. I wish that they'd come out and say, we were fooled by bad actors, we screwed up and we're working to identify and eliminate from the hobby the people that have undermined the hobby's confidence in general and in us specifically. We will also work to correct our internal issues which led to our part in allowing this to happen when it is anathema to our purpose as a company and a leader in the hobby. OK getting off my soap box for now. |
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Thanks Jeff for the info.
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My only comments to this thread are: Thank you Blowout! Please keep up the great work. It is making a difference. The collecting community appreciates your efforts. Go BODA! Jeff, please do your best to do good. |
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I have nothing to do with anything involving the law so take that into consideration. My concern is that PWCC gets to come out of this virtually unscathed. Lie, cheat and steal your way to a couple million dollars profit - get caught - lie and steal some more - hear the Feds at the door - realize the "errors of your ways" - donate/refund a very small percentage of your profit (I'm sure on the advice of counsel) - get to play the hero/ martyr of the collecting community- take a year off - repeat I certainly applaud Jeff's efforts towards restitution for the victims but I can't see how this dissuades anyone from trying something like this in the future. Someone needs to be made an example of or we'll see another scandal every few years. While PSA has more than their share of blame, it feels to me that Brentsie was the ringleader. You shouldn't get off with a "whoops, my bad. Here's some of the money back that I stole. Sure the whole scheme ran through me but let me tell you about all the other bad eggs" ETA - my name Sc0tt C1int0n |
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Jeff - I've never met you. And I do believe you are trying to do the right thing.
But the question I raise to you - is that even possible? Is there anyone connected to this hobby that can truly be an honest arbiter? Every card taken out of circulation by the FBI - makes other cards more valuable. Are those in your collection? Or the collections of friends of yours? Every owner of high end cards has an interest in the outcome. Some gain by preserving the status quo. Some gain from the destroying the status quo. So all an FBI investigation can do at this point is shuffling the winners and losers. The only guaranteed loser is the history of the hobby - as cards are taken out of circulation. And while some cards can easily be removed from the hobby with minimal impact, some of these cards are truly scarce to begin with and valuable regardless or doctoring. Taking them out of the hobby just makes the hobby poorer and the owners of the unremoved cards richer. The approach you are describing throws the baby and the bathwater out. And the real loser is the hobby. |
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No fan of PSA and wouldn't mind seeing it go down due to their being unable to do their job. However, I understand and appreciate their sentiment that the card doctors and their knowing facilitators be the ones to take the financial punishment. They would be the criminals not PSA.
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I respect what you are trying to do. I really wish you were on the other side of history because what your client has done for 15 years is just shameful. You have railed against what he has done, because you know, you know. This isn't just something that happened ooooooppppps ie. This was a methodical crime for 15 years of doctoring cards and identifying which ones would be better for their criminal activity, rinse and repeat. That's the grossness of it all. Just a complete dick with a complete disrespect for the law, your client Brent Mastro I wish you were on the side of the collector instead mr. get rich quick schemer Brent Mastro. That's all he is my handsome friend, common criminal. Nothing special. So, good luck to you in your endeavors. To Brent Mastro, not so much. |
We will see a pull back correction from the recent outrageous prices of the last 4 years ? We’re those numbers even real ? Will anyone lose confidence in PSA graded cards ? All questions I ponder wondering if many people think the same.
P.T Barnum said it best, “There’s a sucker born every min” The collector, as a whole, has swallowed the bait hook line and sinker. This will be evident from the Newport Beach lines at the National. PSA AH’s And Dealers a like have made millions off this whole ordeal........... most hardcore collectors know the issues and still buy, still submit, still try again and again for bumps, still consign....ect. I hope things get better........ |
I think that's the concern of a LOT of us.
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The rich keep getting richer
I love the info that jeffrey has provided. He basically told us Brent will not be going to jail and that we should be happy and grateful that PWCC is refunding obvious trimmed and altered cards and those with only "MINOR" alterations are going on the back burner. I must say. You are representing your client well. Just seems a little self serving to me. Thank You BLOWOUT for your great work. at least you didn't sell your soul or integrity to represent a crook.
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Good third post without your name listed.
Good understanding of how the Sixth Amendment works. And good reading comprehension skills — you’re able to read things that have never been said or written. |
Absolutely freaking brilliant move by Brent and Betsy. Silence the criticism coming from your biggest critic by hiring him. LOL. Mastro and Allen really blew that one.
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Appreciate what you're doing, but if there isn't going to be real transparency in this cleaning up then we aren't that much further along. "Trust me" aren't words most of the community is going to be satisfied with. "Show us" would go much further. |
Brent has been selling cards for Gary since at least the late 2000s and I believe it was earlier than that. I imagine most of those cards are no longer with the original purchasers out of prewarcardcollector/PWCC and cannot be traced. And as stated, Gary is just one piece of the PWCC puzzle. Obviously whatever can be done to get these cards off the market is better than nothing, but the ability to rectify decades of fraud is quite limited.
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Peter - agree with you, but why can’t we just start with what we know already and go from there?
There is a big piece of this that is a pretty simple reconciliation project if some minimal information would be shared. But so far, even those who are supposedly cooperating aren’t really sharing. Maybe the FBI is doing the work? How anyone who hasn’t already been contacted directly for refund would know that I’m not sure. So far, it’s all still happening in the background with a bunch of trust me’s and be patient. This thing has had pretty public legs for months now, if they’d just share a little more info on what we already know most of those cards could be mopped up in a few days. The older stuff, agree much more difficult. The recent stuff, it’s really not that hard of anyone really wanted to get it done. |
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Another concern is that there have been issues with items PWCC has listed since the original scandal. I assume it hasn't been overwhelming, but it has happened, and their response didn't exactly demonstrate their supposed reform.
Final concern (until I think of another one) is what about their long history of shill bidding and price manipulation. As their advocate obviously you are not volunteering other concerns to the FBI, but the scope of their bad dealings goes far beyond the selling of doctored cards. They basically conspired to manipulate an entire market. If this had been any form of securities (which they wanted to turn cards into!) their would be little question about the fate of the company. |
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He isn’t a fiduciary....as you know there are zero ethics and rules in this industry. It’s snake oil for for the most part all up to the buyer....again let the market dictate....to many emotions and not enough brains from collectors. When collecting meaning lower value stuff less brain is needed emotion is fine...when collecting with high thousand dollar cards emotion has to go out the window....it’s all brain. Many lost sight of this and bought into his marketing. His Marketing, use that word lightly, others call manipulation, I’ll stick with Marketing, It was bull S++t.....however it’s just his opinion, it’s up to the market to decided wether it’s a bunch of crap or the real deal.......he obviously duped many many people as marketing his graded cards as investment vehicles. Putting emotions all aside ......all I can say his don’t buy from the guy or consign to him.... |
He can call things what he likes, his attempt to equate them to securities isn't what I found questionable, that IS marketing and he can use all the hyperbole he likes. It's his obvious manipulation of the prices, to a degree that Mastro didn't even aspire to that may go unpunished that is my concern.
I was just making the interesting side point that if they were securities, as which he wanted people to think of them, he would be in a LOT bigger trouble, and making some people whole might mitigate that, but it wouldn't eliminate it. |
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Obvious Manipulation you state, are you referencing Shilling ? If so I didn’t that it was illegal depending upon which state you were located in? |
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My Issue
Jeff, I do understand why you did what you did in taking this case but what I do not think is Kosher is that you have created a market for yourself by being the loudest and complaining about what Brent did as loud as anyone on this board. You essentially raised it to the level (along with others) that it demanded attention and then took the case. How is this ethical?
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I want to see what PSA is going to do ? Are they remaining silent for these reasons over at Newport Beach ??? PSA might think it's safer to keep quiet until details do, or don't, come out. That way they don't shoot themselves in the foot over something they may not necessarily have to..... Like if 6 pieces of damning evidence come out, it's better for them if they keep quiet now, and own up to those 6 things, but skate on 7-8 other things that weren't found out, or they weren't implicated in, despite having done them |
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Nowhere did I say that is why you did it either. |
Fwiw
I don't post much, mostly lurk, but this is a huge deal all around, for the hobby and the hobbyists.
From what little I know, as a lawyer, the Sixth Amendment assures that a person charged with a crime has counsel. The Sixth Amendment does not require any particular attorney to take on any particular client (there are even rules that allow lawyers to refuse to take cases for some types of clients). Any lawyer is, generally speaking, free to accept any representation, but typically is not required to do so. Having said that, I admire someone who has been a critic of a person or entity, who then takes up their "defense," often not to save or salvage the person or entity, but instead to ensure that the person or entity gets the treatment to which they are entitled, to ensure that the system treats the person or entity fairly and properly (and legally). I am not sure that Charles Manson's lawyers wanted him to be acquitted; I am sure they wanted the trial process to be fair and open and legitimate and transparent. If Mr. Lichtman (who I do not know at al and have never met) wants to ensure that PWCC is treated properly in the process, that's his choice, and I respect it. If his object is to try to get something positive out of PWCC in its relationship to the hobby, I think its a net positive. And I think he's entitled to be paid for his work, too. If his object is to insulate PWCC from its obvious liability, play tricks with the system to get PWCC and its principals off the hook, that's different, but I, for one, do not hear that in his comments here. On balance, having someone intimately familiar with the hobby is a net plus; he knows how it all works, who the participants are, etc. I'd rather have someone knowledgeable involved than an outsider who is in it for the acquittal at all costs. Also, please understand that there is a great deal he cannot say due to the attorney-client privilege. Do not crucify him if he is limited in his disclosures, especially in the context of a pending criminal investigation. |
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Many a time in the courtroom I’ve disliked a defendant while respecting his attorney. This is definitely the case in this matter. |
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The problem is if it's possible, people jump to probable and beyond. It doesn't help that the rumor mill has been pretty accurate a number of times already in this whole mess. I really hope your presence in this mess helps the victims, I can't say that I hope your presence helps the perpetrators though, that would be disingenuous. |
Copy the link and open an incognito browser and then paste the link in your address bar to get around the WaPo pay wall.
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Its poetic justice at its finest
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Jeffrey,
Just my 2¢ What I'm most intrigued by, and am curious about your opinion of, is Brent's assertions that "conservation" is perfectly acceptable in the hobby as he correlates it to the art world. This entire premise is ridiculous. Fine art works are inherently unique, 1 of 1 pieces. In that regard, condition and conservation of that condition are not as taboo. Graded Sportscards, by definition, are a world of comparison where the condition of one card can be exponentially greater than another simply based on condition. The "conservation" of that card then comes into question as it relates to the other cards in existence that have not been "conserved". I understand he is in self-preservation mode at the moment, but by uttering complete nonsense like he did with the above simply makes him look ridiculous and minimizes any other argument he puts forth in his defense. |
Kudos Tony for the best explanation I've seen to date of why card conservation/restoration/alteration and art C/R/A are two different things.
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There is an even simpler difference. Art is restored/conserved to preserve it for posterity and the work is disclosed. Baseball cards are restored to deceive, in nearly all cases, without disclosure.
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The constant in all these areas is that any alterations have to be disclosed. In the movie memorabilia and fine art paintings hobbies, lack of disclosure would be considered as unethical as in the baseball card hobby. Why? Because even in the art and movie memorabilia areas, restoration and conservation affect the financial value. A restored to Near Mint movie poster may be more accepted, normal and collected, but the unrestored Near Mint movie poster is still worth more. So lack of disclosure with a movie poster would just as much be considered fraud as with a baseball card. Also, while restoration may be more accepted and normal, there are still many art and movie memorabilia collectors who are only interested in, or most interested in, unrestored items. It's certainly not the case that "all art and movie posters collectors" are fine with restoration. And in some areas, such as ancient American Indian arrowheads and stone knives and axes, the collectors/hobby are even more anti-alteration than in the baseball card hobby. But the constant in all the areas is the word "disclosure." |
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