Defensive SS
 

I love the defensive part of the game of Baseball and Belanger > Vizquel w/o a doubt in my mind. He’s not even mentioned in the HOF discussion, but was one, if not the best to ever play the game @ SS. Omar was an above average SS.

Don’t think Hoffman should be in, but there’s a lot of players I don’t think should be in the HOF.

Agree completely that Mark Belanger was one of the elite fielding shortstops. I grew up watching he and his Orioles consistently frustrating my Tigers from 1969 on. But except for one year that I can remember (1969?), when he hit .287, his bat was MIA. He might as well have gone up to the plate with a dowel rod. Vizquel was considerably better from an offensive standpoint.

Again, interesting post,

Larry

The beauty (and, to be completely honest, the ridiculousness) of this thread is that every single one of us saw these 4 new HOF'ers (and Edgar) play throughout their entire careers. I doubt anyone here is young enough to have missed watching these guys from their early MLB beginnings. We all have a ton of first-hand knowledge regarding everyone (through ESPN and other cable stations, daily internet highlight videos, etc.), and that is beautiful!!! Since the all time greats (Cobb, Ruth, Robinson, etc., etc.) are held up almost as mythological figures by us these days, it's funny to think how many arguments swirled around each of them when they were up for induction.

Defense
 

Larry,

I agree that Vizquel was a better offensive player for sure. Pretty much after Aparicio (which was a great shortstop as well) Belanger, even though a weak hitter, started for the Orioles in their heyday and beyond. The way I think about it is if Vizquel was on the O’s at the same time he’d have been playing a different position.

I doubt there were arguments about those guys, just as there were no real arguments about guys like Griffey, Ripken, Maddux, Schmidt, whoever. I suspect players on the cusp have always been the subject of some controversy.

Maybe he was on roids that year lol. In context it really made no sense that he would suddenly be flirting with .300.

Offense Stats
 

Peter,

What people don’t recall is that Belanger hit .333 in the 1965 season. He was definitely juicing that particular year...


The above is how people use stats to make things go their way.

???

Berkman had three seasons of 1.000 OPS - 2001, 2004, 2006. He also had a .982 and a .986.

Matt Holliday had one season over 1.000 - 2007.

Correct that Bernie Williams never had a 1.000 but he did have a .997.


Personally, I think Edgar should be in the Hall. Two batting titles, career OPS+ of 147. Yes, he hit "only" 309 homers. So what? Rogers Hornsby hit 301. Rickey Henderson hit 297 and is renowned for his OBP but his OBP was lower than Edgar's.

Yep, 'gar was one-dimensional. But when that one dimension is SO good, you can overlook it. And, let's be real - he could have played 1B if needed. But the Mariners had an all-time elite defensive 1B (who could also hit) in John Olerud, so Edgar played DH.

If we are going to go by OPS what about a guy like Fred McGriff who seems to get no love or the HOF.

McGriff: led the league once in OPS

2 times over 1.000
9 other times over .900

Martinez : led the league once in OPS

5 times over 1.000
3 other times over .900

During Ozzie Smith's top 8 seasons, he averaged 545 assists. During Omar Visquel's top 8 seasons, he averaged 440 assists. That is 105 hits per season that got by Omar that Ozzie Smith turned into outs. Strong arm or bare handing balls are irrelevant when you can't catch the ball. The fact is that Omar had average range. Being the best at making routine plays doesn't make you a Hofer. Saving your team over 100 outs per season and the runs those hits would have produced is deserving of Hof.

There is one guy on the Hof ballot who deserves Hof for his defense, Andrew Jones. Jones saved his team 243 runs in 15 seasons compared to Omar Vizquel saving only 133 runs over 24 seasons. Jones was 11% above league average offensively, not 18% below average like Vizquel. The only advantage Vizquel has is sticking around for 24 years. Are we going to elect Jaime Moyer and Charlie Hough to the Hof too? They played longer than Vizquel.

We change the rules, we change the statistics, and we try to compare players across generations. Does Jim Bunning get in today? How about Joe Tinker? The HOF is really a generational popularity game. Sure, the case can be made using stats and comparisons. But, players have made it into the hall for being the best at their position for the generation, being a multi-tool talent, being a great defensive player, having longevity, or even being part of a famous poem. Does Edgar belong, I think so if the DH is considered an important part of the game. Hoffman, without a doubt. The hard part is trying to crack the top of the list when you come up a year where the talent runs deep. I wouldn't try to justify why a previous turn-of-the-century hitter shouldn't be in the HOF because their HR numbers aren't on par with Pujols or Thome. Nor would I compare Cy Young to Greg Maddux. WAR might provide a perspective that helps normalize some of the bias, but I'm hesitant to use it across the board. We would be kicking a lot of great players out of the Hall if that were the case.

Who made more errors on average? Also I'm not quite sure having X more assists than the next guy automatically translates into the next guy let X more balls by him for hits. By that logic why didn't Tejada, who led the league in assists 7 times during his career, ever win a gold glove?

I didn't realize you could penalize a guy because a batter didn't hit a ball to him. Great next gen stats.

Yes and no. You can't penalize a guy because another guy didn't hit the ball to him. But in the aggregate, it is VERY LIKELY that as many balls were hit in the same area, making it statistically similar. And that's the comparison. A 20% difference is pretty significant.

He's talking about assists. You can't get an assist without a ball hit to you. Assuming the difference in assists figures is based on base hits seems presumptuous.

That is the whole point of playing shortstop. When the ball isn't hit directly to you, you have the ability to go get the ball and make a play. Ozzie Smith fielded balls that other shortstops, including Vizquel couldn't get to.

If Vizquel was some great shortstop, you would think he would lead the league in assists once, just from some random variance. Derek Jeter was a statue and he led once and finished second once. Your idea that balls were never hit close to Vizquel is absurd. I took an 8 year sample because there is going to be some variance, but when Vizquel is never close to Smith, even one single season, it just confirms what I saw. Smith had great range, Vizquel had average range.

You keep bringing up Gold Gloves. Gold Gloves are a popularity contest, voted on by managers. How else do you explain Derek Jeter winning 5? He is universally regarded as a bad defensive shortstop.

That's a really poor argument. You said before that the difference in assists must be because Vizquel let base hits through. There's no way to know that. Bringing Jeter into things doesn't seem to fit either. There hasn't only been 2 shortstops to ever win 5 gold gloves. Vizquel won 11.

:1" st, I would also point out that the Cardinals pitchers WERE NOT a strikeout staff ? Were Omar's teams did have some players who could do that ? So with that said , he would have lost a few more outs / chances per year & Omar had a few more injuries then Ozzie did also ? Same could be said for sure on Barry's career ?:rolleyes:

That assumption may or may not be true. If it is, then range factor should be the be all and end all, no? But obviously people think it isn't because newer metrics keep getting invented.

RATS60 ? Andrew Jones , are you for real ?After he signed with the Dodgers & other teams , he was more or less a back up player & went to play in Japan at age 35 & was done by age 36 ? I all ways had thoughts on him juicing up ?Was even benched 2 time I think by Bobby for dogging it out on the field ? Good ball player & I seen his whole career , too . How can you be washed up by the 2009 season , when he was mainly a DH for the Rangers ? Still was in his early 30's at that time & was done by 2013 , some thing there is not right ?:confused:

I will preface this post by saying I haven't read any of this thread, haven't looked at any of his numbers, and being an NL guy who lives on the east coast, didn't see much of him.

But my memory of him is that he was a BEAST at the plate. HOFer all the way :)

Congrats to the new class. Photo taken at my favorite watering hole, just moments after purchasing these from my local card shop. Always enjoy celebrating HOF selection day!! :)

Yeah not many cards in this thread. No Hoffman here.