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Cobb / Ty Cobb back card
We had a interesting and spirited discussion on this subject 7 years ago. Check-out this thread (dated 1-26-2009).."Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate"
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=92026 If you don't have the time to read thru this very informative thread, then I'll save you the trouble by this excerpting this Post (#89) in it...... These Feb and Mar 1910 Newspaper clippings cinched for me....these dates fall within the T206 rubric....this Cobb card is indeed the 525th card in the T206 set. Quote:
TED Z . |
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Erick
I'm not sure what you are saying....do you think this Cobb is, or is not part of the T206 family ? And, if not then please clarify ? TED |
It is not. Then you'd have to count all the T213-1s and the T215-1s. They have the same fronts as well. It is not a new card. The checklist is not broken down by backs, it's broken down by fronts.
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Interesting that you say this....since I do indeed consider the 1910 COUPON cards as part of the T206 family. Furthermore, although I feel ambivalent regarding the T215-1 cards (since some of them were issued in 1912), I could see how they also fit within the T206 rubric. TED Z . |
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The only tin found so far that has a stamp on it is dated 1912.
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...preview/2.html |
I think it can be considered part of the family but you said it was an addition to the checklist, bringing the cards to 525 total. I don't agree with that because it's not a new card and the checklist isn't developed with backs in mind.
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That is some unbelievable luck.
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Red Cobb / Ty Cobb back......
This Cobb was printed and issued within the time frame of the printing of the 350 series T206's.....circa early Spring 1910.
It's caption is printed with BROWN ink. The Factory #33 identified on it's back is the Reidsville, NC. The ATC factory where the Ty Cobb Tobacco was produced. There is nothing on this White-Bordered tobacco card that prevents it from being a T206. Hey, there are 5 cards of Hal Chase in the T206 set, so why not 5 cards of Ty Cobb. TED Z . |
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You're missing the point that Erick and "packs" are making. This wouldn't be a 5th Cobb, the Cobb (red portrait) already exists in the 524 card checklist. |
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As you said....the 1912 date is from the tax stamp on it. Which does NOT tell us when this Cobb tobacco or this Cobb card was marketed. Please check-out Post #81 here, where the early Spring 1910 Newspaper clippings clearly tell us when these Cobb cards were in circulation. TED Z . |
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Here's the picture showing the date.
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I'm not following what you're saying. If a card is already on the checklist, why would a back make it a new addition to the checklist? The card is Cobb Red Portrait. Any Cobb Red Portrait with any back is still the same card.
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2. Bat off 3. Red portrait 4. Green portrait 5. ? |
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Are we 100% sure that the cards, the holders, and the flips didn't come from Mexico.:)
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just pointing out the date on the stamp for the distribution of this tobacco/tin. As far as I know no one is sure the cards were even in these tins. I did see post #81 and I don't see where it "clearly tells us when the cards were circulated". I also don't see a date on any of the newspaper clippings. |
FOX news just did a segment on the find
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I agree with Glyn and Leon. I think these cards will easily exceed $2 Mil....
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I am a terrible speculator but I do not see these cards fetching 2 million .
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Goldin Auctions sold a PSA 1 that had more wrinkles than Phyllis Diller for $120k, and I think that was quite a while back. The PSA 4.5 of this card in this recent find is gong to bring huge money....
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Don't insult my intelligence ! I fully understand what they were driving at. I stated that I consider this Cobb card the 525th card in the T206 set. Notice, I have emphasized the word CARD; and, not subject. Furthermore, I consider that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON series should be included in the T206 set. Which now brings the total to 593 cards comprising a complete T206 set....which consists of 17 basic Tobacco brands. And, this is my opinion, of which I am entitled to have and to speak of (having collected T206's for 36 years). Obviously, you (and some others) disagree; and, that is your prerogative. TED Z . |
According to PSA, two of the cards from the find have sold. The purchase prices haven't been revealed yet.
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In his American Card Catalog His Lists "Ty Cobb" as 1 of the Backs included in the T206 Set... The T213-1 and T215-15 He Also Labeled as their OWN Designated Group! So, "Would You Please Explain "Why" You Guys Know Bettar then the Man Who Wrote the Book!" I Truly Love You Guyz... Yet I have Always been a Truest in the Hobby. Mr. Barker is an Icon!!! Sorta Like Mr. Jobs, Paul Allen and Bill Gates! ;) I do Understand the idea that there weren't many "Ty Cobb Backs" Back in the Day. However, That didn't Stop Mr. Barker From adding them to the Set! Personally ~ I Don't Like it either. But Truth is Truth!!! Patiently Awaiting Your Replies... Ohhh and I Would Love ta Know who deemed the T206 Set to Have ONLY 524 Cards in it? According ta Mr. Barker he can't add... :) |
[QUOTE=tedzan;1511276]Don't insult my intelligence !
I fully understand what they were driving at. I stated that I consider this Cobb card the 525th card in the T206 set. Notice, I have emphasized the word CARD; and, not subject. Furthermore, I consider that the 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON series should be included in the T206 set. Which now brings the total to 593 cards comprising a complete T206 set....which consists of 17 basic Tobacco brands. And, this is my opinion, of which I am entitled to have and to speak of (having collected T206's for 36 years). Obviously, you (and some others) disagree; and, that is your prerogative. I'm not understanding the logic here? I'm fine with the idea that every back is a different card but how does the number 525 or 593 come into play? If Cobb red with Cobb back is 525 why isn't say Cobb red with Polar back 526? |
I have no opinion, but I infer Ted thinks it's sufficiently different because it was distributed differently and/or is glossy that it counts as its own card.
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I do Believe that Mr. Barker Viewed the "Ty Cobb Back" as an Anomaly within the T206 Set...
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The way I see it I hope you guys agree/determine there are only 524 subjects in the set. At least that way there are only 3 cards I will never own (wagner, plank and doyle) rather than 4!!!!!!!
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But I wouldn't loose any sleep over it... After All, there are many Anomaly's within the T206 Set... ;) |
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If you are counting "cards", then you are missing about 6000. See page 67 of Inside T206 which accounts for: 524 subjects 35 backs 6845 theoretical combinations (cards) http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/i...al-edition.pdf Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
We know more about the T206 set today than Buck Barker knew.
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Nov. 16 1909, in the Reidsville Review newspaper (Reidsville is the home of Factory 33), is the earliest mention I found. The other mentions in the Reidsville Review are from Jan 25 and 28, 1910, and Webster's Weekly (Reidsville) on Jan 27, 1910. I don't consider the Ty Cobb a T206 card, i just think it is a one-off card. I'm fine with the assumption that it was included in the tins (which I don't think there is any proof of yet, but makes sense). FR Penn joined the trust secretly around 1903/4 I think, but to the outside world it was still presented as an independent. I don't think it become publicly outed as controlled by the trust until 1910 (I've misplaced the newspaper article that indicated this, and may have my years mixed up) - if this is the case and the card was distributed in 1909/10 then it could have appeared to just be a card from a different tobacco company. It was definitely distributed in a different way from other T206s as the only card from Factory 33. But that's all my opinion, and I'd be happy to see further evidence. |
So your saying I should take a 35 min drive to some Reidsville antique stores? No idea it was manufactured in NC.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk |
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Do Tell!? I Realize that we do! I Just don't think that we Really Need to Re~Think All His Work... It is what it is... Why is "The Ty Cobb Back", either in or out of the T206 Set So Important to Everyone...? A Red Cobb is a Red Cobb... No? Glossy or Not, it's Still a Red Cobb! Mr. Barker added it to the Set... That's Good Enough fir me! |
Am I missing something? Isn't the front of the Ty Cobb tobacco card the same as a red Cobb? If so how can it be a different card, just a red Cobb with a VERY rare back?
I too believe it sounds like a promotional piece and not an insert? |
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http://catalog.scpauctions.com/1909-...-lot29314.aspx |
300 Large?
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I don't see that happening, but stranger things have... |
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Say 200k for the 1.5, 300k for the 4 2.5s, 500k for the 3.5, 750 for the 4.5. Of course these all just numbers I made up, but I could see them going for that or more. That's 2.65 mil at my guesses, and I would not be surprised by a total of 3 mil. The word is that two are already sold. If this is the case, I'm sure they didn't sell cheap. |
This is a really, really cool find.
I agree with Ted on this one, I'm not by any means a T206 back expert (at all, so please correct me if I am wrong), but the Ty Cobb back Cobbs are different to the regular red backgrounds the same way they're different to Coupon Type 1 Red Backgrounds. Also, is this now the third rarest T206 back? 3. Ty Cobb 2. Brown Old Mill 1. Brown Old Mill Fact. 649 Overprint? ~Owen |
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Erick and packs asked you why you think the Cobb/Cobb should be added to the basic set and you come back and post a couple of times why you think it should be considered a T206 which was completely different from what they were asking. It doesn't matter to me whether the Cobb/Cobb or Coupon 1 are considered a T206 or not so I don't have an opinion on it but stating that a card is indeed the 525th card in the set is stating a fact not an opinion. Sometime your posts can be hard to decipher when you contradict yourself. You said the Cobb/Cobb should be the 525th card in the set and the 5th Cobb but based on your follow up post in your own opinion it should be the 6th Cobb (Coupon 1) and there should be 7 Hal Chase cards not 5. |
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is my condensed version correct?
these cards have the same front as a red ty cobb w/ various backs. but the ty cobb back is most likely released in a later year for a specialized release and they simply just used the front from the red t206? or in simpler terms... I wouldn't make the 89 bowman mantle part of the 1953 bowman set? |
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back
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Cobb apparently began smoking in 1909 and Ty Cobb brand tobacco debuted in January of 1910. It was made in Reidsville, NC.
There's a funny reference to his smoking history via an old newspaper clipping in this update on the sale of the 2 newly discovered cards. http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...d-in-bag-sold/ |
T206 Cobb Back
What a find. Can only hope we get so lucky some day!! Keep searching...
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Say 200k for the 1.5, 300k for the 4 2.5s, 500k for the 3.5, 750 for the 4.5.
I'll say 50% of these above guessed prices. Do I win anything? |
They are being sold privately by Rick. I doubt we will know the prices. Two have sold already, at least.
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Pat R.
Perhaps, I got carried away with my comments regarding the Ty Cobb Tobacco card and the 1910 COUPON series of 68 cards....because I strongly feel that these 69 cards should be included in the T206 family; and, that there are really 17 basic Tobacco brands within the T206 timeline. All 69 of these cards were issued in the Spring of 1910. What really ticked me off was your response (cited here) questioning the date of the Ty Cobb Tobacco card [I guess for whatever reason it does not jive with your agenda]: Quote:
The date....Feb. and Mar. of 1910....of these Newspaper clippings is identified by the fellow who posted it, Shawn. Shawn was an excellent contributor to Net54 back in 2009. So, are you are accusing Shawn of lying about this date ? Quote:
TED Z . |
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months seem to be Feb. and Mar. 1910" which leads me to believe he Didn't find a definite date on these clippings. And if you could please show me where it clearly states when the Cobb/Cobb cards were circulated in the clippings I'd appreciate it, Perhaps I'm missing that. |
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a liar. I was only saying I didn't see a date on the clippings But Ted has a bad habit of trying to put words in peoples mouths. |
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I did NOT "put words" in your mouth ! ! .... I simply asked you a question in response to "wise-a$$" remark you made regarding my Post #81. This crap of your's is sidetracking what is a great thread. It's time to grow up, and quit your snide remarks on whatever meaningful inputs on this subject matter that I have been posting in this thread. TED Z . |
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I posted this several years ago - Neat adv. stating 10c per package...
March 10 1910 Augusta Ga. Paper. Also notice at the bottom it states: Reidsville NC Atlanta Ga Sanfrancisco Cal |
This is like the time your parents start arguing in front of you and your like.....
Everyone has an opinion, which have all been voiced in this thread. Just let it be. Who cares who is "right". We all love cards, that's why we're here no? A find like this is big and rightly so, T206 or not. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk |
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Amen! Can we just talk about the find, rarity of the cards etc...? |
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I think you're correct. I talked to the guy who bought the first two, and while I didn't ask the price, I get the sense he isn't keen on disclosing that information. |
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This is another helpful Thread that may answer some of the ownership questions.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...122677&page=12 |
i think its kinda cool they are being sold privately while the sharks circle trying for a piece of the action!
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For some reason some issues have the appearance that they were printed at a higher quality level...they just have more vivid colors and registration is spot on.
From my experience most of the red hindu t206's ive owned...some proof cards...these cobb/cobb's appear to be printed with more care than most issues! |
Kinda bummed these are being sold privately. I would've enjoyed watching those auctions.
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well with 7 more on the market there is higher likelihood one will come up sooner on the chop block.
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Amazing find, amazing cards. Now if i just had $$$$ :D
This find along with the "Black Swamp" find are what dreams are made of for the collector in us. Would have loved to hold one before they got slabbed |
Every time I see the description of this "find", I crack up at the comment that the cards were found in "Great Grandpa's old bag", and think, You really shouldn't talk about Great Grandma like that!
:D:p Steve |
The lucky 7 find is amazing! The PSA 4.5 and 3.5 Cobb's will surely sell for a huge amount.
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Are we sure they're ALL selling privately?
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Can't hurt ta try... |
Along with the Black Swamp forgery,
Great laser printers nowadays. :) |
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I don't know that every one understands the magnitude of this find. I have said in the past that I thought Cobb backs were as scarce as Wagner's. Can you imagine coming across 7 Wagners? When I first heard about this, I was extremely skeptical. Now, it appears to be the real deal. I don't think it's going to lower the value of these cards. I will add this though, are all 7 cards very comparable in centering and size? They appeared to be from PSA's post....
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