|
I bid on it but I didn't win it. Wish I did. I was a couple bucks off.
|
Son of a ....
Completely forgot about Napolean Lajoie. I would also like to add Tris Speaker to my ever expanding list. Speaker had a .345 career average, and (if the numbers are accurate) struck out only 394 times in 11,992 plate appearances. That's pretty exceptional, even for the pre-Ruth era. I'm curious to know where the participants in this discussion would place Tony Gwynn. Outstanding defender and base stealer before his knees began to give out. Never a real power hitter, or big RBI guy. But you can't argue with his eight batting titles. Since 1965, Gwynn's .338 average is 10 points higher than the next best hitter (minimum 5,000 at bats), Wade Boggs. And after meeting with Ted Williams for the first time (1992 All Star Game), Gwynn was an incredible .356 hitter for the last nine seasons of his career. |
i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.
as for clemens using only sparingly to stay healthy, c'mon power pitchers today like verlander is flaming out in their early 30s...even great control guys like halladay were done by their mid 30s. you don't go 220 era+ in your early 40s like clemens without the aid of something. his career should've been done after boston w/o the help of chemistry. |
Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb Ted Williams Hank Aaron Ken Griffey Jr. (:D hopeless Seattle fan) |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Yes, doesn't Mays have the record of least strikeouts batting left handed of all the 500+ home run hitters? |
Quote:
The things that amaze me are that he was so much better than everyone else in his generation and that he was hitting over .320 still at the age of 41. He was still an above average hitter that late into his career. Nothing but respect for that. |
Quote:
But of course, you'd expect violent outbursts in someone who was using steroids to the extent required to achieve such an improvement in middle-age. http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/sl...322&h=215&q=75 And anyway, these fine gentlemen can testify that the clubhouse in Arlington was clean as a whistle. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ea168cab4f.jpg I'm not saying he was on the juice, but with the standard of evidence we're applying to all the other guys who have been condemned in this thread, the case against Nolan Ryan is vastly greater than it is against Pedro. |
Quote:
|
Top 10:
(1) Ruth (2) Cobb (3) Gehrig (4) Williams (5) Shoeless Joe (6) Mantle (7) Walter Johnson (8) Christy Mathewson (9) Cy Young (10) Honus Wagner |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Great thread, Larry |
Quote:
What pitcher won a MVP and was runner up twice in a 4 year period? What pitcher won 3 pitching triple crowns in 4 years? What pitcher won 2 World Series MVPs in that same 4 year period? What pitcher threw 2 shutouts in 3 days to clich a world championship? What pitcher threw a perfect game and 3 no hitters in 4 years? Reputed is the wrong word, unparalleled is the word you were looking for. |
Quote:
|
My take
It's funny to me how many of you guys think that the top 5 players of all time retired 40+ years ago.
|
Quote:
No it's the word I meant. Don't get me wrong, I think Koufax was great. I don't dispute he was the best pitcher on earth for 4 years either. I don't believe he belongs in the discussion for greatest ever (living or dead) though. Not when considering the ballpark he pitched half his games in and the era he pitched. |
Quote:
Roberto Clemente Willie Mays Hank Aaron Stan Musisl Eddie Mathews Willie Stargell Willie McCovey Orlando Cepeda Frank Robinson Pete Rose Lou Brock Ernie Banks Ron Santo Billy Williams Richie Allen Richie Ashburn Nellie Fox Yogi Berra Duke Snider Mickey Mantle Roger Maris Harmon Killebrew I guess the NL really sucked, no talent. There's no excuse for not pitching multiple no hitters every season, an ERA under 1 (He did it in the WS, why not the regular season)., 400 Ks, 30 wins. I guess the Dodgers should have stayed in the Colasium with a 250 ft left field fence. After all, you think that had no impact on his era or other stats. Moving into a real major league park was an unfair advantage for Koufax, as was pitching against no talent in the NL or WS. Striking out 15 Yankees was meaningless, cause that team sucked too. Go on and continue hating the best left handed pitcher of all time. |
Judging a pitcher's historical greatness based on his best four-year run was never a thing before Koufax. It's just something that was created to retrofit the data to make a case for putting him at or near the top of the best pitchers list. Ex post facto analyses like that don't stand up to peer review in fields whose experts have studied statistics. Maybe that's condescending, but it's also true.
The best career is Walter Johnson, Cy Young, or Roger Clemens. The best season is Tim Keefe, Pud Galvin, Hoss Radbourn, Walter Johnson (1913), Bob Gibson, Dwight Gooden, or Pedro Martinez (2000). The best game is Kerry Wood, but that could be surpassed today if, for example, someone pitches a perfect game without a ball put in play and strikes out 21 batters. The best 4 (or 7 or 16.3 or π or .123) year run can be calculated, but I don't really see the point. Even if you choose 4 years (completely by accident of course), it's still not at all clear that Koufax should be #1. I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind, because the people who think Koufax was the greatest pitcher ever (or even in the top 5) didn't get there by caring about the statistics that empirically do a better job of quantifying a player's contributions to his team's chances of winning games, but hopefully they can at least understand the perspective of those they are arguing against. |
Quote:
Gwynn, IMO, is far more than a singles hitter. He had more (other than Bonds, significantly more) triples than anyone in that group and his doubles stack up pretty favorably against most, too - in fact, he has more than Schmidt and AROD (for now). The only people on that list even close to him in batting average (to me, probably the top criteria) were Pujols and Boggs. Boggs had as little pop in his bat as he did and while Pujols is a career .315 hitter now, that number is dropping by the day...he hasn't hit that well since 2009 and he could play for another five years or so. And when you consider that Gwynn never struck out more than 40 times in a season, he's an easy pick for me. If you factor in things like strikeouts and batting titles, I'd take him over anyone else. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Wow! Wow! Isn't that like saying if you factor in SB's and runs scored (runs and run prevention being the most important things), then Rickey Henderson is the greatest baseball player of All Time? |
Quote:
Above, it was poorly arguement that Koufax unfairly benefited from his home park when historically it has been pretty close to neutral. The fact that during that time, the Dodgers had the lowest staff era in the NL every year, while having one of the worst offenses (8th, 8th, 8th & 6th ) should leave anyone with an ounce of common sense to realize scoring would be abnormally low. It is not that people don't care about those advanced metrics. It is that they are often misused and result in erroneous arguements. |
Quote:
The fact is that Dodger stadium has benefited pitchers since 1962. It's also fact that each year Koufax pitched there he performed better at home vs the road. It's a very pronounced difference. 1962-1966 Koufax Home Faced 2,714 batters, gave up 34 HR 1.37 ERA Away Faced 2,681 batters, gave up 55 HR 2.57 ERA Those are substantial home/road splits. |
Dodger Stadium
Quote:
The notion that the Dodgers had a bad offense is not true. The 1962 Dodgers scored more runs then the 1961 Yankees. They had good offensive players whose numbers suffered in Dodger Stadium. |
Quote:
No one is arguing that Dave Stieb (who put up the best numbers in the 1980s per se) was as good as Tom Seaver (who put up the best numbers in the 1970s per se) or Bob Gibson (1960s), but to ignore park factors and the systematic changes in the game across generations as related to anything other than the pitchers' abilities in doing these comparisons is to conclude that Ed Reulbach was a better pitcher than Felix Hernandez. And that, I argue, is more egregious than putting Dave Stieb in the Hall of Fame would be. |
Quote:
Terrific thread and discussion! Larry |
Ruth
Williams Gherig Cobb Bonds |
I say again...
Cobb Mantle Ruth....any order you see fit.... |
1. Tyler Flowers
2. Shelly Duncan 3. Ben Grieve 4. Travis Lee 5. Michael Jordan 6. Billy Beane 7. Mario Mendoza 8. Bull Durham 9. Pete Rose JR 10. Tony Gwynn JR |
Quote:
Best wishes, Larry |
Quote:
Bonds was the better power hitter, but Gwynn, for me, is a better hitter overall when you factor in the things I mentioned. Hit for a much better average, struck out less, won batting title after batting title, and was still hitting well over .300 into his 40s. |
Quote:
Gwynn get's no respect. Power is overrated. Gwynn hit a HR in the WS against the Yankees. Bonds is a cheating a$$h0le. And no you don't know exactly when he started roiding up and no he WASN'T a HOF'er before the Roids because you don't know when he started, fact is it doesn't matter. He cheated. To quote Hawk "He Gone". I guess that yeah Gwynn was a nicer and better human being than Bonds. Hitting he WAS a better hitter. He like Cobb had a science to hitting Cobb sought out his advantages in players weaknesses. Gwynn did the same while using recordings of at bats and making it all about the thought process of hitting. If people were going to give him the Gwynn hole in between SS and 3B why wouldn't he keep attacking ??? Boring sure if you're too worried about Home Runs. Don't get me wrong who doesn't like a HR but to overall hitting, and a guy who only sniffed a .330 average once in his so called "clean years" proves that Gwynn was a smarter/better hitter. He wasn't worried about Home Runs. Nor should he, he knew what type of player/hitter he was. When it isn't broken don't fix it. Bonds got jealous of McGwire and then that's when he supposedly started juicing. He took an unfair advantage whether or not you view it as one it is a debatable subject in it's own. But MLB sees it as an unfair advantage. Therefore IMO he shouldn't even be a contender to be considered greatest player. He is the greatest of something but I won't say that out loud on here. Not going to get in trouble again. :cool: P.S. Next thing I'll see is someone claiming Clemens was the greatest pitcher ever :rolleyes: |
Gwynn is nowhere close to Bonds, IMO. Steroids aside, Bonds is one of the best five players of all time, easily. Gwynn might be top 25. How on earth is power overrated in baseball?? And you could certainly make a strong argument that Clemens is the best ever.
|
Quote:
Gwynn was as great a contact hitter there ever was. I would choose Bonds as the better overall hitter even before Superhuman Bonds. Pre '99...Bonds still had a career .411OBP and .556SLG with a 164OPS+. His ability to draw walks, hitting 30-40HRs while maintaining a .300 average is what separates the two. Bonds only struck out over 100 times once in his entire career...his rookie year. Both great hitters in their own ways...but I would choose Barry. |
Bonds was already the best player in baseball before he started using.
|
Quote:
Clemens IS the best pitcher ever. I am very biased though.:eek: |
1. Babe Ruth (towers over all other position players)
2. Cy Young (towers over all other pitchers) 3. Barry Bonds (the most dominant player I ever saw) 4. Honus Wagner (the best player at the most important position) 5. Walter Johnson (417 wins) 6. Willie Mays (coin flip with 7) 7. Hank Aaron (coin flip with 6) 8. Ty Cobb (Legend) 9. Rickey Henderson (wreaked havoc wherever he went) 10. Lou Gehrig (sneaks in past the others below) Honorable Mention: Albert Pujols Johnny Bench Eddie Collins Joe Morgan Ted Williams Pedro Martinez Tris Speaker Mickey Mantle Christy Mathewson |
Quote:
|
"i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays."
Perhaps Mays wiped with his left hand, but he batted righty. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Seriously though backing Bonds is like backing G@y-Ro1d up.......... |
Quote:
1. Steroid users with good home run totals 2. Peter 3. The gays Anyone else we should add? |
Quote:
1. Not necessarily true. I like McGwire and like Sosa for what they did for MLB in 1998 and baseball crapped all over them after they reaped the benefits of what they did for the sport. 2. Also not true what's wrong with some snappy comments to keep an argument going ?????? ........... 3. Where did I say that ????? It's a common nickname I've heard from him. I'm from New England so there's lots of A-Roid bashers you hear quite a bit of different nicknames from him. Don't jump to assumptions Glenn :p |
The more I think about it, the more I think Ken Griffey Jr is being vastly underrated. By age 30, he was a career .299 hitter with 1,063 runs, 398 home runs, 1,152 RBI, and a .948 OPS. He also had been named to ten All Star Games, and had won ten Gold Glove Awards.
I would say Bonds was the best player in the NL, and Griffey Jr was the best in the AL. But how we are overlooking Griffey Jr perplexes me. He played the game all out, and I've never heard a single whisper about him and steroids. His body broke down after age 30 because he was always flying into the wall, or diving to make catches. That baseball historians are wondering "what might have been" if Griffey hadn't seen his career derailed by injury...while he still amassed 2,781 hits, 1,662 runs, 524 doubles, 630 home runs, 1,836 RBI, and a .370/.538/.908 slash line...really attests to what a spectacular player he was. I'll tell you one thing. I don't know if there's ever been a player I enjoyed watching more than the Kid. I never saw DiMaggio play, obviously, but from what I've read about him, and have seen in documentaries, everything he did looked effortless. That's the impression I got with Griffey Jr. He had one of the most beautiful swings I've ever seen. He would just whip that bat around, and the ball would fly into the upper deck. Then, he'd go out, and jump up over the wall in center, and rob somebody of a home run. |
Quote:
Go play in traffic, man. |
Quote:
|
T-1st Lou Gehrig
T-1st Babe Ruth 3rd Ty Cobb T-4th Willie Mays T-4th Hank Aaron 6th Ted Williams 1st Walter Johnson 2nd Cy Young 3rd Grover Alexander 4th Nolan Ryan 5th Lefty Grove |
There seems to be a hitters biased towards the 30s-60s. And that may be justified. I would submit that for modern players Tony Gwynn should be considered. I do not think he had anything to do with steroids and has the highest career batting average of all "modern" players.
And then an old timer, who as I read stories was amazing is Ed Delhanty. He averages more career hits per year, more runs per year, and more HRs per year than Ty Cobb. He died whole still in his prime but did play 16 years. Just a couple guys from a different era than Mays/mantle/etc. Who are not HR guys but who hit for average. |
Greatest of all time
1. Bonds
2. Ruth 3. Mays 4. A-Rod (when he hangs them up) 5. Pedro (gotta have a pitcher [emoji6]) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Greatest of all time
Quote:
Quit pretending like Bonds never played, geez. He's a part of the games history, grow up and deal with it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Yes but recall ARod only played SS through 2003. I think Ripken had more at the position, actually.
Yup, I am right. Most By A Shortstop AL Cal Ripken, Jr. Baltimore 345 NL Ernie Banks Chicago 277 |
my top 5
1. Babe Ruth
2. Ty Cobb 3. Ted Williams 4. Lou Gehrig 5. Hank Aaron 6. Willie Mays 7. Mickey Mantle 8. Rogers Hornsby 9. Joe DiMaggio 10. Stan Musial |
Top 15 Hitters:
Ruth Cobb Wagner Musial Williams Mays Aaron Rose Puckett DiMaggio Gwynn Griffey Jr. Mantle Boggs Brett |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quit being ignorant and calling Bonds the greatest of all time and I'll consider it. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Ruth, but yeah if you are willing to count his years on juice Bonds has to be part of the discussion and is certainly up there in the top five and maybe as high as second.
|
Quote:
Before I read your post, I was thinkin that throughout this entire thread... The Lack of the Lack of Support that Lou Gehrig was getting. Knowin that opposing pitchers "HAD TO PITCH TO'em"(Because Ruth was uP Next!), Only made Mr. Gehrig's job that much more difficult! My whole life I've thought Mr. Gehrig to be a better All around player than Mr. Ruth, except in the pitching area. It Baffles me that Lou Gehrig is Not iN Many of our members Top 5 lists. I'd say the same for Christy Mathewson... As the Top 5 list goes! He made the Giants a far Better Team when he was on the mound. In All, I definitely like everyone's perspective though! I've always liked these threads... Simply Awesome!!! |
Gehrig batted after Ruth far more than in front of him.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...US&output=html In any case having a great hitter hit behind you makes the batter's job easier not harder -- the pitchers have to come into the strike zone. |
My top 5
1. Babe Ruth
2. Barry Bonds 3. Ty Cobb 4. Willie Mays 5. Honus Wagner Sorry but considering bonds the greatest player ever is far from ignorant. If all it took to be great was popping a pill or getting a shot explain the differences between Ozzie canseco and Jose canseco or Jeremy Giambi and Jason Giambi. These weren't Magic hall of fame pills or shots they were getting. |
Gehrig
Quote:
If indeed both Ruth and Gehrig are in the top 5 you have to figure out why they did not win more pennants and World Series then they did. Unless, you also say that all of the HOFers they played with -Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated. Two of the top 5 players ever combined with 8 other Hall of Famers should have won far more pennants then they did. |
Quote:
1. I agree that Gehrig should not be in the top 5, but 2. You shouldn't expect the best team to win against a mediocre opponent, let alone a pennant winner, quite so often in baseball as you seem to. See here: http://freakonomics.com/2012/11/09/d...-world-series/ 3. And anyway, they finished 1st or 2nd in the AL 10 times in the 12 years that Ruth and Gehrig were there together -- every year but 1925 (when Ruth and Gehrig missed a combined 88 games) and in 1930 when they finished 18 games above .500 with the second worst pitching staff in MLB (team ERA+ = 89). 4. I'll just quote you out of context here, as it's absolutely spot on. "Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated." Indeed. |
Quote:
|
Ruth and Gehrig
Quote:
Who are the next best set of teammates for any length of time - Morgan-Bench, Morgan-Rose? |
Quote:
Eddie Collins and Jimmie Foxx? Kid Nichols and John Clarkson? You could also go with Babe Ruth and Tris Speaker (1915). Or, you know, Pujols and Trout. |
Clemens and Seaver?
|
Quote:
|
Mantle and Berra has to be considered. Plus Ford.
Maddux and Glavine. Foxx and Grove. Mays and McCovey. Jeter and ARod. Frank and Brooks. |
Roger Clemens and Wade Boggs in 9 yrs together they won 4 batting titles, 3 Cy Youngs, and 1 MVP.
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:52 AM. |