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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Peter, <br /><br />Did Maris play in Yankee Stadium in any other years, with Mantle batting behind him? How did he do?

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>This is probably the first time I've heard anyone implicate Frank Thomas. The guy's nickname was "The Big Hurt" since he broke into the league in 1990. He's always been huge. Had he not hurt his arm diving for a grounder, he'd have way more than 500 homers. Steroids? No way.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Peter:<br /><br />Didn't Maris play in Yankee Stadium with Mantle hitting behind him all those other years?<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Marc</b><p>My list is as follows:<br /><br />1.) Brian Giles<br />2.) Julio Franco<br />3.) Roger Clemens<br />4.) Reggie Sanders<br />5.) Jason Kendall<br />6.) Albert Pujols<br />7.) Brady Anderson<br />8.) Ruben Sierra<br />9.) Gary Matthews, Jr.<br />10.) Bobby Abreu<br />13.) Alex Rodriguez<br />14.) Miguel Tejada<br /><br />Sorry, but these are 14 players I GUARANTEE have used HGH and steroids. And I could easily make this list larger.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>now you name matt Williams and Mark Grace as Dbacks who were teammates of Gonzo in '01, plus Schilling. Are you suggesting these players used steroids too?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />There were a couple of other years with lesser results.<br /><br />But the thing with Roger he had the perfect swing for Yankee stadium, if you recall he never really hit monster home runs like Mantle. But he had a swing tailored for the outfiend fences at Yankee stadium.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Marc,<br /><br />Interesting list--why are you sure on Pujols?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Mitchell won't be providing a list of every player who used illegal performance enhancing drugs.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think a huge number took steroids, perhaps the majority of major leaguers, because it was the only way for them to stay competitive.<br /><br />If they didn't take them, they could lose their job to someone bigger and stronger who did.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>David,<br /><br />Correct but a person who has seen the list termed it "enormous" with a lot of undisclosed big names.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I agree with you Barry.<br /><br />My belief concerning sports and competitions where performance enhancing drugs are prevalent and commonly used by the top competitors (MLB, Tour de France, etc) is that superior performance is good indication of use of performance enhancing drugs/methods, in particular with winners (beat everyone else). If an athlete's competitors are using the illegal drugs/methods, it is close to unbelievable that an athlete could be beat them au natural. Amongst the strongest evidence than Floyd Landis cheated in a Tour de France infested with cheaters is that he won. With performance as significant indicator, do I believe Lance Armstrong did not cheat while beating for seven consecutive years against competitors who cheated? No I do not. I think one would have to be naive to believe it physiologically possible. In fact, the director of the of the Tour de France was asked where the top racer not medically cheating would finish. "Perhaps fifty fifth," he said.

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>"But he had a swing tailored for the outfield fences at Yankee stadium."<br /><br /><br />Peter, <br /><br />Are you aware that Maris hit 30 HRs in the Stadium and 31 on the road in 1961? <br /><br />In 1960, his other MVP season, he hit 26 on the road and 13 at home. <br /><br />The benefit of the short porch at the Stadium is an urban legend. <br /><br /><br />(Edited to correct peter's typo. Happy now? I used cut and paste and didn't even notice your typo. I did notice the incorrect assumption in your post.)

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Your a great guy and all, but you don't need to repeat my typos. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>There doesn't seem to be much about baseball history that Peter C <i>is</i> aware of.<br />No shame in that, but after being called out time and time gain, you'd think he'd stop making his pronouncements.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The air in Yankee Stadium in 1961 had to be "rarefied" (as it is in Denver). Besides Roger and Mickey hitting a lot of HR's,<br /> the two catchers Blanchard and Howard hit over 20 HR's each and Yogi (LF) hit 22 and Skowron hit 28.<br />1961 was a very good year in NYC.<br /><br />And, a reminder that Maris won the MVP, also, in 1960. He only had 39 HR's that year, but a lot of clutch hits and 112 RBI's.<br /><br />His "hair loss" in 1961 was due to the stress he constantly felt from the media push. He was a simple and shy country guy that<br /> couldn't deal with the daily onslaught of the NY sports media. <br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Ted, <br /><br />I always attribute a big part of the 1961 season statistics to the dilution caused by expansion. Two new teams, on an eight team base, watered down the pitching, a lot.

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Posted By: <b>brock</b><p>TAKE A-ROD OFF!! I bet he never took anything, he has always been a great player since day one. Never got huge.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>I have a personal question for everyone:<br /><br />You are a ball player. You're good, some would say great. To go from great to becoming a legend or arguably the greatest player ever...would you take steroids?<br /><br /><br />My answer – absolutely!<br /><br /><br />Right now I could actually use some HGH.<br /><br /><br /><br />Kevin<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'm having my afternoon Stella Artois as I type this...but never took steroids.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />No--I would not.<br /><br />Aside from the health aspects and legal aspects of this which I will allow Peter C to expound upon, this is a game filled with enormous history and tradition. I could never live with myself knowing I broke records of some of the greats of the game because of illegal performance enhancing drugs.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Who are you talking about, Barry? George Mitchell?

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Ted, of course I know all that, but again, if Maris were playing today, we'd be hearing all about it, in the form of speculation that Maris was on steroids.<br /><br />The fact is that there were plenty of illegal activities going on in Major League clubhouses in the 1960s, 70s and 80s as well. What was missing during the majority of that time, as well as during all the time before it, were 24-hour news and sports networks, 400 channels of original programming, dozens of websites and newspapers, each desperate for the next scoop and the next pile of dirt to report. The desperation to achieve ratings successes is what's uncovered so many of these stories and made them public.<br /><br />Before all this, with news media traveling with (and in some cases, having their expenses paid by) the teams, reporters did not have quite the incentive to question whether Roger Maris was ingesting anything that might be helping him muscle more balls over the fence, perform better in day games after night games, or better acclimate to the insanity of west coast road trips. Nobody bothered to ask the question.<br /><br />So when Tom House came out and said pitchers were doing steroids in the 60s, everyone was surprised. Not me!<br /><br />I guess my main point is that the Mitchell Report, to me, will be interesting purely from a gossipy, human interest sort of angle. But it's not going to change my opinion of the game or the people who are playing it today one iota. <br /><br />-Al<br /><br />Edited to correct the spelling of "ingest", although "injest" is, perhaps, a more ironic spelling.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>David- I think I am missing some clever reference, but Stella Artois is an imported beer.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />It all goes back to the money and the fact the players only have a short time to earn it.<br /><br />We all like heart-warming stories about pros who suffer in the minors for 10 years and then become productive major-leaguers.<br /><br />The problem though is a major league career normally only lasts less than 10 years. So if you are going to earn the big bucks you need to learn how to be competitive soon. If the studs on the team take steroids, then I 'm sure you would seriously consider it yourself.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>I like Amstel

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Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Kevin, hearing that from you will be bad for your new business! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Jay Buhner

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Brooklyn '55 Pennant Ale.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>davidcycle</b><p>There's no reason to not exclude ARod as a possible user. He is the highest performer in baseball, and if Rafael Palmeiro can test positive, there's no reason to automatically exclude other stars. At the time, many people thought, "Man, if Palmeiro used steroids, then anyone could have."<br /><br />As mentioned, if players feel suspicions are unwarranted, then they only have have to blame their union, players' guilty denials, ludicrous excuses and the common 'code of silence' amongst players. If players were willing to admit their guilt, fans would be more willing to accept denials. Fans know players have a code of silence about illegal activity ('Don't snitch'), in part because players have said they have one. This means fans know players hide information and aren't to be considered reliables source of information. Then, when players complain that fans don't accept what they have to say, the answer is "No ****, Sherlock."

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>David -- true. Same goes for Chicken Stanley. And Mark Belanger.

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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Didn't some Pitchers a few years ago (White Sox?) step forward and say they would be willing to be tested? Also, didn't other players or the Union urge them NOT to do this??<br /><br />All I know is some players stepped forward BEFORE testing was allowed by the Union and said they were clean. They were quickly quieted and that idea was never heard of again.<br /><br />David

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Posted By: <b>Glen Turner</b><p>Has anyone mentioned Kevin Brown and Pudge Rodriguez?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycle</b><p>Duly note that I included superior performance as a factor. If a league is filled with artificial performance enhancers, it's physiologically unlikely for someone clean to be the best.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Jason Kendall?? what part of his 6 HR's a year would make anyone think he was taking roids? He doesn't even swing for the fences he always chockes up on the bat a few inches and tries to poke balls to the gap over the 2bman.

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Posted By: <b>Marc</b><p>Apparently you are someone who didn't watch Jason Kendall play with Pittsburgh. He was a bigger and stronger player who once averaged about 12-15 homeruns per year. Now, the guy is lucky to get 1 homerun a year. Not sure where you got this average of 6 homers recently? If my memory serves me, I want to think Kendall didn't even hit a homerun last year. Considering I'm a Pirates fan and have been since birth, I've watched enough of Jason Kendall to know what I'm talking about.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>He hit 1 HR vs Kansas City last year<br />and He hit a HR vs the Astros this year (almost 2 in the same game and he hit 1 other HR this year as well.<br />He hit 1 in 06<br />0 in 05<br />3 -04<br />6 -03<br />3 -02<br /><br />The most he ever hit was 14 in 2000 and he hit double digit HR's only 3 times in his career.<br /><br />While I won't claim to be a guy who followed him obsessively in his career before Oakland he was a player I paid attention to and I was psyched when he came to Oakland (and one of the few who were upset when he was traded) He has always been a double to the gap swinger I sincerely doubt he used roids.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Glen,<br /><br />I mentioned Pudge in my original 10.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>David they didn't offer to be tested the pitchers were going to refuse to take the test which would have made them automatic failures which would have put the failure rate above the minimum % and would thus force the MLBPA to start the testing policy that we have now.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>What has made people think Alex R. is a user? He has never performed differently over his career, never grew or did anything else to show the effects of performance enhancing drugs? I'm curious - is this a personal dislike of the guy (which he certainly has his detractors)?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I have to agree with you on the ARod issue. His stats and physique have not grown over time. Other than for reasons of schadenfreude, I can't conceive of any reason why one would think he has ever used 'roids.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Oh heck no. Did Jeff really just break out a "schadenfreude"? I KNEW this was a high-end board!<br /><br />Clemens<br />Pudge<br />Frank Thomas<br />Kruk<br />Sosa<br />Maybe Sheffield<br /><br />No's<br />Ripken<br />Jeter<br />Ichiro<br />On all three, I'd just be crushed if they did. It would seem like the loss of some true and decent players that I admire and believe in.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Why does everyone think Thomas was on the juice?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I never said ARod used drugs. It has been said often that ARod can automatically be removed from the list of possible of users, and I was indicating that I did not see justification for this stance. I don't why any player can be automatically removed from the list, in particular one who performs at a superior level.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>First....someone in this thread has implied that if a player is overweight (John Kruk for example) he is suspected of being on steroids ? ?<br />Well Kruk overcame testicular cancer and I would suggest that the medication he took to cure this malady might have something to do<br /> with his weight.<br />And, while oversize Phillies players are being targeted....was "The Bull" Luzinski on steroids ?<br /><br />And, have you taken a good look at Tony Gwynn lately....is he, or was he on steroids ?<br /><br />And, Alex Rodriguez.....GIVE ME A BREAK ! !<br /><br />2nd....this "Mitchell Report"....is that old has been senator from Maine, George Mitchell conducting this "inquisition" ?<br />He can't be trusted any more than Selig or Steinbrenner.

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Posted By: <b>Ken W.</b><p>Amstel is my fav also. And my 23 year-old female bass guitar player just introduced me to Stella. Fantastico!!

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"Luis Gonzalez looks the same now as he ever did, lean and not particularly muscular. He has probably not weighed 200 pounds in his life. Take your witchhunt elsewhere."<br /><br />HMMMMMM.........................<br /><br /><img src="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/photo/photogallery/ws_top20_large/20.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jeez, that picture. Yeah, I guess it surely would be a witch hunt to question whether Gonzo was on the juice at the time his HR total jumped from 31 to 57....<br /><br />We all are capable of thinking objectively about this issue even when it impacts our favorite teams and players, right? After all, we're adults, right? No one has posters of Gonzo in their room still, right?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Interesting photo.<br /><br />No reason for anyone to get offended. There will be a list of new names--take a shot with your 10 most likely of those who have not been prominently mentioned in past.<br /><br />Actually if I had to do over I would put Luis in and take Arod out.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Looks like normal muscle mass growth for a dude with a 32 or 34 waist, huh?<br /><br />I agree with Jim.......don't get offended. No witchhunts.....certainly makes you think though.........

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>But if that's the best you got, I still say no way. Anyone ever heard of a weight room? <br /><br />Those guns are impressive, no doubt. But I'd bet that current DBack Chris Young could show you the same flex, maybe Justin Upton too. I'd also bet every team has at least one player who could do the same. Of course, they're probably juicers too.<br /><br />I don't take it personally. I just think its a gossipy old lady's game to sit around and toss people into the pit like this. Let the evidence, such as it is, come out and be analyzed before appointing yourself members of the character assassination league. And Jeff, my daughter still has a Got Milk poster of Luis and his triplets in her room--make of that what you will.<br /><br />BTW, Tom, you didn't answer my earlier question--are you throwing Matt Williams, Mark Grace and Curt Schilling into the pit too?