Back to the GI Joe cards in the Pokemon packs, maybe it's actually a factory error where the manufacturer accidently put the wrong cards into the packs, and all the third party authenticators were right...

;)

It wasn't one of those "subtle passive-aggressive jabs" of which you wrote. My comment was a compliment to Peter.

A subtle passive aggressive jab would be, "Hey Snowman, it's nice to see things are going well with your treatment. With a little more tweaking, I'm sure the doctors will get your meds just right. Keep up the great work. Your efforts are commendable."

To many collectors, it does make a big difference whether it's a factory issued rookie card that he signed for the manufacturer, or just a rookie card someone later got signed or some card doctor got resigned. You can mock or question it all you want but it's a fact. Nothing to do with morals or superiority. IF the card in question was altered, then it was clearly done to deceive and increase the value.

The card was originally not worthy of a PSA 10 grade. It was then altered and fixed, and then garnered a PSA 10 grade. Really no different than trimming or patch-swapping.

If the card was graded by PSA as ALTERED with Auto AUTHENTIC presuming they evaluated the autograph (which they didn't), then the flip would be accurate and the buyer would know what they're getting. As of right now, it's a Frankenstein card.

Similar to the 1994 Griffey and Mantle autos. Many were released unsigned, some were released with Griffey auto, some with Mantle autos, and some with both autos. Do you just assume that all cards you would come into contact with having both autos are authentic as released cards? Who's to say Mantle didn't sign afterwards, or Griffey did? Does that make the cards less valuable? Yes. Or did a forger put either's auto on there?

I just don't get you. Perfectly okay with fraud. Just a cost of doing business. Why not just buy counterfeit Jackie Robinson cards? Why are they worse than originals?

Not that the originals ended up being particularly valuable, but I have read that many of the 93 Hoops Bird/Magic dual autos are just aftersigned cards. Relatively speaking the originals are worth a lot more.

First things first. And this is BY FAR my biggest beef with all you card "alteration" hunters. Maybe read this part twice. THE CARD IN QUESTION HASN'T EVEN BEEN PROVEN TO HAVE HAD THE AUTO WIPED TO BEGIN WITH. What we're discussing here is a hypothetical situation about whether it should be acceptable or not for an athlete to have signed a card twice. Yet here you are, pretending as if this has already been proven or something. You're free to cast a vote on that question, but you don't get to just decide on behalf of everyone that to do so constitutes "fraud" or some such nonsense. I would wager everything I own that if someone were to try to take this case to court, they'd be laughed out of any courtroom. There is just no scenario whatsoever that the majority of people would find this to be some sort of fraud, let alone even remotely questionable behavior.

Regardless, back to the card itself. Let's keep the facts straight here. Someone posted a picture of a signed Pujols RC and said essentially that the auto just looked too nice/clean to him for it to have been an auto from 2001, and that it looked more like autos he's seen from 2004 (face-palm added). He provided zero evidence of his claim and made no mention of the sample size of how many autos he might game tried comparing it against. But he just "knows it in his heart", which is good enough for all you clowns to hop on board declaring "Look! MORE FRAUD!!!" Meanwhile, someone else responds with a photo of another Pujols signed RC where the auto looks nearly identical to the one in question. And the response is, "see, there's another one! Look how much fraud exists in this hobby. AVOID PUJOLS AUTOS EVERYONE! THEY'RE FAKE!... er, um, I mean, ya they're signed by Pujols, BUT NOT IN THE DAY YOU THOUGHT THEY WERE! WHICH IS FRAUD!!!"

As far as the Mantle /Griffey card, again, no difference to me which one of them signed the card on which dates. It's on my wish list, and I couldn't give two f***s about whether it was signed by both at the same time or by one of them in 1994 and the other in 1997. Who cares? And if you do care, why? What difference does it make as long as it's signed by both? I would pay the same price either way.

Have we let authentications control the marketplace instead of collectors? I feel like collecting has very little to do with the card or “sealed item” and everything to do with what a private unregulated company has to say about it


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Let's stop talking about Autographed cards graded by TPGs Ion this thread. This other topic of signed Pujols cards is a distraction from the topic at hand.

This thread is about the ineptitude of BBCE and their authentication of a fabricated case (not authentic in any way).


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Because how do you know that any of them are actually signed by them anymore? That's the problem. The PSA 10 on the flip is supposed to give you that confidence, but it's a lie. At least on that card, since it's pre-1998, requires PSA/DNA to confirm the auto is authentic (or at least as PSA can come close).

On this 2001 Pujols auto, which has a nonstandard auto for the year when the card was released, PSA didn't even evaluate the auto. But their PSA 10 grade would make a buyer think that since the card originally came autographed, that it has the original autograph. PSA AUTH ALTERED AUTO 10 would be more accurate, presuming the Pujols auto was even done by him.

Someone earlier asked why the serial number would have been wiped and redone. One reason would be so that it couldn't have been as easily traced by serial number to previous cards pictured on the internet. Some very high value Trout autographs were exposed as wiped and resigned based on photo matches to previous sales. Once they've been wiped and re-signed, which does constitute alteration no matter how much you whine, PSA ignores the auto when giving the card grade. That's just a terrible business practice for the "world's leader in sports authentication." It's incompetent.

To test the proposition being floated by our contrarian, do you think a PSA AUTH ALTERED AUTO 10 would sell for the same price as a PSA 10? Something tells me no.

Well, of course not. But we should take this to another thread and get back to talking about a falsely authenticated $3.5 million dollar error by a connected company. Or I should just put Snowbuddy back on my ignore list.

Well, it seems that discussion has played out given that nobody seems to be continuing it.

It seems to me that if the two cards don't sell for the same price, and I would bet a lot you are right, then the market (overall) does care.

If the altered card is just labeled as a 10 it would probably sell for more because his newer auto looks so much nicer.

The majority has spoken. Steve is a good guy and several are heavily invested in his product so this is a nothing burger just like every PSA "mistake".:D

Out of all the takes in the history of NET54, the statement below is the one that I the have the most issue with.

Jake Paul has fought NO ONE. His last "fight" was totally staged and set up. Same thing with his brother's "exhibition" with Floyd Mayweather. These matches were nothing but money grabs for them because they both new that certain audiences would pay $80 PPV to watch those staged productions. I would say that most people that think Jake Paul's bouts are legitimate are the same people that think professional wrestling is real.

Thanks to a Blowout member, here's a comprehensive article on this mess.

I'll post in both threads since we can't seem to unify them.

https://www.cardlines.com/logan-paul...hensive-guide/

I can't help it, but I find something fishy about this whole deal. A group of guys pay over 3 million dollars for an unopened box and can't wait to open it. BS. There is no card in the set worth anything near that. Then one of them does the jumping around overacting deal. All to staged looking for me. Something fishy went on with that case. I don't believe it a bit.

Leaving aside every other component of this situation, I will say this:

For TCGs, and unopened product generally, there is a divergence between the value of sealed packs/boxes/cases and the expected value of the cards inside. The gap widens as the product ages.

Pretty simple to me
 

Did they make a video about this that would draw viewers? Absolutely. That said no way in hell it's "staged"

Steve Hart and BBCE have just taken a HUGE reputation hit - no way he agrees for that to happen for a stunt. Secondly - Steve has now publicly stated he is no longer authenticating Pokemon product. Why did it get opened? I suspect Logan Paul started looking at some of what was posted about this case which he may have been unaware of before he bought it. There is another "unopened" case that has one side of the top flap cut open to show the real boxes inside. I do presume Logan already had a commitment from his friend who he bought it from to refund if they were no good. I also suspect he would have kept the case intact with a single flap opened like the other if the boxes looked legit.

You can see the bus coming at you - "not believe" it's a bus and it's still going to run you over!

I wonder if Steve was made aware of the barcode and label issues between the time he authenticated the case and the video fiasco.

Hard to believe he'd voluntarily take part in that video had he discovered the case was likely a fabrication.

Right, which means San and Logan withheld the information from him. THEY knew the odds were this was going to be a bust, but led him on. With respect to Howard and others, something is just off about that video.

IMO, you're reading too much into it. If they would have divulged that info to Steve/BBCE beforehand, it's likely that he wouldn't have met with them. That's just my $.02.

I think that was my point. They led him on because they wanted him to be in the video.

Ok, understood. But I think it was important for him to be there for a couple of reasons: (1) he could confirm that the BBCE shrink-wrap hadn't been tampered with since it left his facility and (2) he could give his justification for authenticating the case originally.

If it were me and I had spent that much money, I would want the authenticator to be there.

But if you're Steve and this is coming back to you based on rumors from the internet, wouldn't he have the common sense to read those rumors? It's like he wasn't even aware of them, since all he talked about before they cracked it was the condition of the label (fake) and the tape (fake). Or someone from his business should have pulled him aside with all the information. The meeting in the hotel room was like 3-5 days *after* all the information was out there on video and webpages explaining the rationale it was fake. That's a lot of time that he had to look into the challenges.

Reminds me of the scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade; Steve should have known the phrase "penitent man" before walking into a buzzsaw.

All the information on the case was available online. Going in to that video it was widely known the case had serious issues. Further, provenance on the case was brutal. I think Steve is a hobby good guy, but if he was blindsided by this then I question his approach to authentication and wonder if he owns a computer.

He's of a certain generation. Maybe he doesn't follow social media/Pokemon forums/whatever.

Of course he owns a computer, he does business online and through ebay. Maybe though he doesn't read Pokémon forums or whatever other obscure places this stuff was posted. If you're Logan or San and are genuinely interested in Steve's ongoing opinion, why not tell him about the information and get his thoughts? Or is he just a prop for the video now?

This makes quite a bit of sense. How many employees are there at BBCE?

There were multiple threads on Blowout and Collector's Universe about it before Steve showed up, and Youtube videos with millions of views at that time. And I'd have to bet if he checked his emails, there would have been many people alerting him to his name being dragged through the mud. Or maybe he just doesn't have many friends. Even PSA should have been contacting him once it hit their message board.

I don't follow Pokemon, but knew all about this before the reveal. This was not hidden in the obscurities of the internet. This was being brought up in other forums and social media sports card groups because of the crossover.

Steve Hart can't even be bothered to research a case that he is authenticating, so it doesn't surprise me that he didn't do any research going into this meeting.



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I was being facetious on the computer comment....

But I'd suggest that if you are in the business of authenticating 7 figure Pokemon cases you may want to follow the Poke forums and use all tools available to you. Hard to become a subject matter expert without any interest in the subject.

He also failed on hundreds of star on front cellos that were out of sequence, sequencing that is available online.

In a day and age when you can learn to build a house, or tear down a Chevy 350 online seems like a missed opportunity.

I knew nothing about it until two days ago, but I don't look at social media or CU or whatever.

Matt, to be clear I'm not defending the mistaken authentication, just saying to me it's understandable he wouldn't have known of developments leading up to the video, not like he took on some ongoing obligation to monitor Pokémon forums. After cases I work on are resolved I don't look every day for news about my clients.

To me, whether he knew or not, is irrelevant. I'm just trying to put myself in Steve's shoes and, if I were him, I would want to be there as the case was opened just to make sure the BBCE shrink-wrap had been tampered with since it was authenticated.

Just went back to check, I bumped the BBCX thread on 1/1. So it was 1/8 when Steve reviewed the case, a full week later.

Understood Peter, you position on this is solid. I guess I struggle with experts and folks providing expertise that don’t use all tools available. My issue is with his research prior to authentication - all the warning signs seemed to be there and fairly available. His auth fee would have covered a days research. Makes me question his knowledge on other items. Simply can’t understand how provenance isn’t part of his method on ultra rare items.

Maybe the dude who had the case reviewed by Steve misled him. The article suggests maybe he wasn't an innocent player in all this, just repeating it here, not vouching for it.

"The Jacob Gabay Question

Everyone involved in this deal has released statements, and true or not, they seem plausible. The one individual who did not release a public comment on the affair was Jacob Gabay, AKA Card Kahuna.

According to Rattle Pokemon, who broke the story, he was contacted twice by Gabay regarding the incident. Both attempts at contact occurred before the opening. At first, he was confrontational and unrepentant and came from his business Instagram account.

He told Rattle that a defamation lawsuit would be forthcoming due to “business I lost out in [sic] due to your video.” However, he also insisted, “I’m 10000% sure this [Base Set] case is real.”

However, Rattle later received a message from another account, purporting to be Gabay’s personal account. The message there was quite different and included a potential bribe offer: “I will pay you $500,000 to take the video down. This is my personal account. Logan can’t open the box.”

Therefore, there are solid grounds for believing that Jacob Gabay committed fraud. However, that is merely an allegation for now."

I followed this thread and a number of related threads because thanks to my daughter I became a pokemon card collector over 20 years ago. She was a member of a pokemon league at our Local Toys R Us. And being in ment that we could purchase a box of each new series introduced. Jungle and Fossill, Team Rocket etc. First edition boxes as well as regular booster boxes. I am happy to say my Daughter still has her binders full of sets and near sets. Now on to the case.
The case in question was advertised as a First edtion Base series unopened case. Someone earlier mentioned that no other cases are known. There is a known case to referance. It has the stop tape cut and one flap opened so that the owner could identify the first edition stamp on the top boxes. He did this because the outside case is identical to a normal (not first edition case) so opening the case was the only way to know for sure.
I agree that Steve Hart rightly so took a blow to his reputation. He authenticated a sealed case of GI joe cards with a fake label as a Very valuable Pokemon case. Now he has stated he will no longer authenticate pokemon. I think this was wrong of him to do. He has already authenticated a large number of pokemon packs and boxes. So what happens to them? Are they worth more now that you cannot get any more slabbed? Or will PSA and BBCE refund all the grading fees and postage fees to folks that sent them in? (Tough to write that last sentance witout laughing). If the reason Steve made a mistake was his lack of knowledge then why not learn? Admit it was a mistake and really learn from it so that it doesn't happen again. Offer a free review to those with current slabs / Wrapped boxes. For him to just walk away with his pockets full is not cool.

My thoughts are that this guy and Jameel (meelypops) just got dollar signs in their eyes and thought they could make a quick million dollar flip once Steve signed off. If they thought the case was fake, I don't think they would have recorded videos and posted Youtube clips of them flying to Canada to take possession of the package and then be so open about taking it to BBCE. Just that greed got the best of them.
Whether or not their backstory swayed Steve to make the authentication, it doesn't look like he relied on that at all. He seems to have just put eyes on the item and blessed it.
So supposedly the two buyers went to Canada and paid "7 figures" for the original faked case, then had it sealed at BBCE, and resold it soon after for $2.7M. Meely supposedly got $550K from the sale, meaning the other guy got $2.2 Million or so. That guy seems to have run out of cash, and cannot refund Shyne, the guy that flipped it to Logan Paul. Meely originally balked on returning the $550K and then it looks like his lawyer convinced him to put it in escrow to repay Shyne. Meely has a store in Gainesville FL that I visited a few years ago, but regularly posted his baseball card show transactions on social media and blowout recaps. If he cannot get the money back from the Canadian guy pokebutler, I guess he's learning an expensive lesson.

We'll see if this goes the criminal route against either Jameel or his co-buyer (or the Canadian authorities go after the maker), or whether this is fought in courtrooms over the lost cash. If the first buyers knew the case was fake when they imported it to the US, then they could be in for a mess with the FBI. But if that were the case, why pay $1 million on the off-chance that it would fool Steve? Why not just create your own fake case in the US and attempt to pass that off?

They didn’t pay 7 figures, they are lying about that. That tale and the idea this was some hick farmer is a big part of them trying to improve provenance . The case sold on bids for 5 figures and they purchased it AFTER that sale fell through. So hard to believe they paid 15x the failed auction price.

Suspect they got it for under 80k and were taking a chance on getting it authed and or bringing it back for refund / legal. A gamble and fraud that almost paid off big time.

That's my understanding as well. The $72,500 eBay deal fell thru because the winning bidder wanted to inspect the case before paying for it and the seller wouldn't allow it to be inspected. I'm with you, I can't see them paying that kind of money after a failed eBay deal.

Wow. A lot of back story on this and a lot of potential risk/reward for all the wrong reasons.
The story to be continued

To piggyback on what Jonathan shared - I think "mistaken authentication" is a really improper framing of what Steve Hart did - An incompetent, uneducated, complete lack of due dillegence authentication is closer to what I would call it. Steve took the position of subject matter expert on this - He is a "big boy" and made his own decision about that. As a self-declared "expert" he should have done enough homework (using whatever resources) to make himself at least as or close to well informed as the apparent real experts were - he did not. The rest - he was set up, he wasn't set up - to me is really irrelevant.


Irrelevant after thought - You want a plausible possibility that he wasn't set up - if the case turned out to be good and he was there, he may have been asked to either re-wrap the case or wrap the individual boxes.

Ironic that this forum seems to have more contempt for an honorable guy like Steve Hart who admittedly fucked up than the countless criminals trimming and otherwise altering cards, knowingly selling altered cards, knowingly GRADING altered cards, shilling auctions, knowingly selling fake memorabilia, and so forth.

Given the chronology it seems highly unlikely they paid even close to that, I concur.

I posted similar on the CU boards, that in a hobby full of crooks this will have no impact on BBCE. We tolerate criminals and cheats to get the best stuff, why would anyone hold a hobby good guy that made a mistake to a higher standard?

All that said, for me this make me wonder how much bad product is under BBCE wrap. Maybe we have put too much faith in their ability to authenticate product that will never be opened. I mean how hard would it really be to rewrap a pack, box or case. Clearly not that hard.

For some people, stuff (that they collect) trumps everything.

Or the price umbrella that the fraud creates makes money for them.