Also, you can get a hint of PED use by looking at 'before and after' photos of guys like Len Dykstra, Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa. I don't remember Griffey going through such a transition.

Scott- I've referred to this article about 3-4 times in other related threads, I'm glad someone else has read it. Don't want to retype the same words over and over, but the general stance I've had for years is that steroids have had a far more negative affect on marginal/fringe players than on stars and fans. Fans/media focus on stars because sacred records are being threatened, but I think many hundreds, if not thousands of fringe players' (and families) lives were greatly and negatively influenced by the widespread use of steriods in the minors/MLB... which I see as a result of Selig and Co's totally lax attitude toward the issue, while they were reaping benefits from the epic HR chase, etc.

You had the 20-40 men on man 40 rosters debating whether to use or not for sake of getting or keeping a job. This was made worse by knowledge that "the guy taking your job" is probably using. You also had guys like the author of that article, who never used but never made a big league roster. While he toiled in the minors, he saw many other marginal talents (guys originally throwing 85, but who'd added 10-12 MPH on their fastball in a single off season) blow right by him

There may be a lot of inflated stats/records up at the top of the steroid era's food chain.. and I agree, that really sucks.. but I think the fact that many many more guys at the lower end of the baseball food chain were robbed of their big league dream, and subsequent paychecks bothers me more.

Just wondering why. He was 20 years old his first year in the minors and destroyed pitching. Then hit 37 bombs as a 21 year old rookie. Is it your opinion that he's been taking PEDs since high school and continues to take them now?

He's 6'3 235. You can't just go to the gym and become Albert Pujols. You are just born to be that big. Sammy Sosa was 6'0 and 165 pounds when he entered the league at 20 years old. There is a huge difference between that person and the Sammy Sosa who retired. But I don't think you can say the same for Pujols, who is just a big guy in my eyes.

Yeah, who knows? Maybe Pujols is/was clean? The trouble is, he spent 8 years or so putting up offensive numbers that were beyond belief, and this happened to coincide with an era when HGH was very prevalent and not tested. So, it sort of clouds him in the eyes of many. As far as Pujols being just plain huge, lots of the guilty parties were that way too. The thing with Pujols is that he's a terrific guy. Very charitable, very humble, or at least he was. No one hates him. (Except Angels ownership!!!)

I'm with you. He was a great signer in his early days too. Crowds have probably curbed that a little bit but I used to be able to get him no problem at Cardinals camp in Jupiter.

I don't subscribe to SI, but always read it when I'm at the doctor or dentist. I read most of it before I went in, then went back out and read the remainder. It was really eye-opening.

Regarding guys like Piazza - my guess is that the HOF voters know more than most of us do, regarding PED use. I think that if a deserving guy was clean, he'll get in. And PLEASE don't accuse me of having too positive of an outlook on human nature.

Maris's 61 partly explained by expansion teams that year--see other AL dingers that year......and Norm Cash hit .360 or something....

Cash admitted using a corked bat that season - and detailed his process for corking the bat in a Sports Illustrated article.

In my opinion you can't take anything away from Maris' 1961 season. 26 years old. Coming off an MVP season. Dealing with everything that came with eclipsing Babe Ruth.

After Mantle the next closest guy to him hit 46. It was an incredible year for him.

The entire situation is very sad. I just don't watch the game with the same enjoyment anymore. I'm a huge Yankee fan, and we come to find out that many players from those championship Yankee years were cheating. And a guy like Pettitte gets a pass because he apologized and admitted it. But he only admitted it after the Mitchell Report cited him. He never would have admitted it otherwise. The report came years after his initial use. Where's the integrity in that?
And many of the PED apologists point to previous generations taking greenies, etc.. But it's not the same thing. For starters, the PED users also are probably taking speed day game after night game. Speculation of course, but I'm certain if players are willing to pay for platelet-spinning treatments, they'd also be willing to pop a speed pill here and there. And where us the line drawn to begin with? What about the pain-killer injection Gibson got when he hit the shot off of Eck? Was that a performance enhancer? Well, the answer is no. Greenies and cortisone don't make marginal players into stars. They don't add 40 lbs of muscle. But what makes me most disturbed with the entire subject is this notion the certain players are clean and free of suspicion. Jeter for instance. Every fan "knows" he never took a single PED. Everyone else in the league, who knows? But not Jeter. But how do we know that? And what's more, how could we know that?. I'm not certain he did, but I don't understand why certain players get the pass. Hell, SF fans annoyed the baseball world with their absolute absolution of Bonds. And Larussa swore none of his Oakland players ever took steroids. Then Canseco wrote the book, and Larussa then admitted Canseco did but again swore McGwire didn't. He could not get his bold faced lies straight. McGwire does his pitiful congress thing, and next thing you know St Louis wins the World Series with McGwire as batting coach. All lies forgiven and forgotten. That what kills me.

Any NL batting records set when the Mets and Colts were added? This seems an unlikely explanation to me. I think he just had a career year, and it didn't hurt that it was impossible to pitch around him.

Seeing how griffey is zeroed in on this thread, was frank thomas ever suspected? He also did alot of damage in the 90s. Just wondering.

" The Mitchell Report also stated that interviews were requested of five MLB players who had spoken out publicly on the steroid issue. Of these players, only one, Frank Thomas, was willing to be interviewed. The Mitchell Report stated that there was no evidence that any of these five had used performance-enhancing drugs."

(From Wikipedia article)

Frank Thomas came from the world of college football. Lord knows what he may have experimented with. But he's another really nice guy. It seems to me that fans really only truly vilify players that broke truly cherished records while obviously using steroids or HGH. Although McGwire gets a pass from some because he eventually admitted it ( far too late.) Bonds, Sosa...forget it. Same with Clemens. People hate him for his lies, his cheating, and his relationship with a 10TH GRADE girl when he was a married 30 year old man (she has since committed suicide.) And if course Palmeiro. But guys like Thomas, Pujols, even Pudge Rodriguez, who was down there in Texas juicing with Juan Gonzales and Canseco...nobody seems to care so much anymore. But if Pujols or Ortiz starting sniffing 61 or 715, it would be a different story...

Boom! Agreed. Why do we celebrate Torre and Larussa getting into the HOF so easily when they directly benefited from having players on their teams on PEDs? Whether they knew or not (yeah right), their WS and win totals are directly related to roided up players.

While I probably am at least a little bid bias towards a hometown player, Frank Thomas's body has been same since he was in high school.

Pudge has always been someone I personally think may have dipped into the PEDs.

In 1992 he was listed at 5'9 165 pounds.

In 1995, 3 years later, he was listed at 5'9 205 pounds.

Maybe it's possible to add 40 pounds of muscle in 3 season at the gym. But that seems like a lot to me.

Wasn't Ivan Rodriguez also hitting 50 HRs at one point as well?

No he topped out at 35.

Not even close. 35 or so was his max. You may be thinking of Gonzalez or Palmeiro.

Yeah, I don't have his stats in front of me. But I do recall a point when his offense went suspiciously berserk for a while during the steroid craze. But I agree, 35 hrs for a catcher isn't weird. Maybe he had crazy BA with lots of doubles and run production???

Not that weird but Pudge did just so happen to put up his career year and won an MVP award the same season (1999) Rafael Palmeiro joined the Rangers and hit 47 homers. That doesn't bode well.

Regarding increased muscle mass as proof of steroid use... A lot of fans just have no idea what serious training and nutrition can do to transform a body-- let alone a body that is already a genetically gifted specimen. Some people have never made intense training and nutrition a major part of their lives, and cannot fathom what the human body is truly capable of achieving. Point being that increasing lean mass and one's physique is by no means at all proof positive of steroids. I am not a pro athlete by any means at all, and at 6'1" I reduced body fat and added 10 lbs of lean mass in multiple consecutive years (and in my thirties, no less; I am 37 now), just by training intensely and taking nutrition very seriously. In contrast a pro athlete with a tremendous frame who wants to improve and has expert trainers and nutritionists on call can make immense gains in lean mass without the need of steroids.

That's very true, but it also reminds me of the PR statements made by all the guilty parties back when the heat first started on them. Bonds' and Clemens' people would invite ESPN to do a clip on their incredible workout regimes. Of course leaving out one crucial detail. And these workouts explained to us how at 35 they still had yet to reach the apex of skill and just kept getting better and better, defying all logic and empirical evidence from 80+ years of live-ball baseball. Plus, I'm sure many of us hit the gym. We can spot the juicers immediately. And I do admit that it got difficult for a suspicious but also naive fan base to spot them in baseball at one point, because guys like Brett Boone and Jeff Bagwell and Ken Caminiti were what the best ball players looked like for a while. Of course we realize now that they were juiced out of their minds.

Pudge only hit 30 HRs once (the 1999 MVP season). He had other seasons of 20, 21, 25 & 27 HRs but mostly hit like 17-19 per year. The 1999 season IS an outlier but his 2000 season is more suspicious. It's a year after Raffy joined the squad and he hit 27 HRs - in just 91 games.

Quite frankly, I thought Pudge was in the "yeah, there's no doubt he used" group. He got significantly smaller once testing started. He never got popped for anything but, yeah, he's a no-brainer for me.

Maybe, these two were just Social Juicers?
 

Bert Campaneris - 22 HRs in 1970 - never more than 8 any other year.

Wade Boggs - 24 HRs in 1987 - had 11 in another season, but other than that, never had more than 8 any other year.

- By the way, why in the HECK haven't the Red Sox retired Boggs' #26? Whatever the reason, it is petty.

It's because Boggs jumped to the Yankees and won a ring, I'm sure. Have they retired Clemens' number? I misremember. But I'm relatively sure they are really displeased with his post Sox success with the Yanks.

As for Campaneris and Boggs, abberation years to a degree, but apples and oranges to steroid/HGH users. Baseball all star teams lining up on the foul lines looked like WWE dudes dressed in baseball uniforms for a span of several years. Take a look at the photos in that Game of Shadows book if you get the chance. Bonds and the other players are so huge in their uniforms that they look like they are about to explode.

It's not the amount, it's the timing. The year Palmeiro, a no doubt about it cheater, joined the Rangers Pudge had a career year and put up his best power numbers of his career.

Boggs hit .363 to go along with those 24 homers and finished 9th in the MVP voting. Says everything you need to know about Boggs. His number does not deserve to be retired.

I don't know. Boggs is in the Hall of Fame for his years in Boston. Maybe I'm wrong, but did he request to go into the Hall in a Devil Rays cap? Or was it a Yankee cap? Either way, that would explain why the Red Sox are not recognizing him...

I also think Wade Boggs # should be retired. As far as his 24 HRs in 1987 if you ever seen him take batting practice you would think 24 would be an off year. He was a homerun hitting machine during BP.

I think a lot of players did PEDs since the 1950's but do not think Wade is one of them.

I hear people about training and being an elite athlete and I agree whole heartedly that people can build themselves naturally through a combination of training and genetics.

But just food for thought. In 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. was listed as 6'3 195. In 1998 when he hit 56 homers for a second year in a row he was listed as 6'3 205.

In 1990 Frank Thomas was listed as 6'5 240. In 1994 after winning his second MVP in a row he was listed as 6'5 257.

Pudge was 40 pounds heavier.

Woah Boys! It was not my intention to imply that either Campy or Boggs juiced...only another poor attempt at humor.

Peter- Boggs DOES deserve to have his Red Sox number retired.

Here's a question for everyone:

Who would your rate higher: Carew, Boggs, or Gwynn?

Right now, more folks would probably say Gwynn - especially if you include defense...

but what if you are just comparing who is the better pure hitter...that is my question.

...and my drivers license still lists me at 235

Gwynn, then Carew, then Boggs. :D:D But Boggs may have been the best at arguing hits and errors with the official scorer because his stats mattered so much to him.

Yeah if given his choice Boggs almost certainly would have opted for .350 and 0 HR than, say, .290 with 30-35 HR, even if the latter would have helped his team more. The 24 year was weird, because he hit for the same high average, then he dropped to something like 5 the next year, almost as if he said FU.

I also remember him following Bo Jackson's lead-off Bomb in the '89 AS game with his own.

I recall a writer, Peter Gammons I believe, saying that Boggs would hit homers in batting practice with such precision that he would start hitting them out to left and keep going all the way around to right.

Boggs isn't the person Gwynn was and probably not Carew (I know less about him), but if that story is true, WOW

Boggs also walked a ton, something that neither Gwynn or Carew did...he was one base over 300 times in more than one season, so how could he not be helping his team?

Now, I would still probably lean to Gwynn, but give Boggs his due.

If this is true, kudos to you. The only thing is that you should be the first person to recognize anomalies like these and not defending these guys. Speaking as someone who trained very hard in the past (clean) and worked out with many people who cheated, I find it very hard to believe most of these people are supposedly clean hitters in baseball. If you have have trained hard, it stands out like a sore thumb. Not sure what else to say.

Boggs was known for ignoring hit-and-run signs and watching the runner get thrown out because he didn't like the pitch.

No, Red Sox cap.

I thought he promised the Rays that since they signed him and let him reach 3000 hits, he'd request the Rays cap??

--

Bodies can't always tell you the truth. When I played high school football I was scrawny. I was 5'10" and weighed 145-150 lbs. I worked out and ate and ate and drank shakes and by my senior year I was playing at 160. I stayed between 140-160 until I was about 28 or 29. Then, suddenly, the weight started piling on. I wasn't doing anything different in my exercise or eating. I am now 215 and I haven't been able to keep the weight under 200 consistently for over 20 years. The point I am trying to make is that if I were an elite athlete, around 28 I would have shown a 40-50 pound weight gain. One might think I was using steroids. A lot of guys pack on muscle and weight as they get to that age. So, I can't criticise a player that has this happen. Now, does the head get abnormally large too? Well, that might be a different story.

Defending players from so-called "steroid era" (probably as much if not more HGH as steroids) is pretty pointless.

Should Gaylord Perry be in the Hall?

I'm with sniffy.