Well, first of all, a lot of those sets are either pre-ATC or non-ATC releases and from a different era, so I don't think that's necessarily as good a comparison as, for example, the contemporary T58 set I mentioned. Even if you do consider those sets though, that would further strengthen my point as the ad-backs (and fronts on Mayos since the backs are blank) were identical on those sets regardless of the front subject. In the case of T205s vs the military/bird series, the backs are not only an entirely different artistic format, but also feature entirely different brand ads.

None of us really know and are only speculating anyways. The fact zero cards have been found unfinished of unconfirmed players says a lot also with no documentation either. The military and bird series are the same time frame, same boarder design, and only lack bios. The bigger companies paid to be advertised on the baseball subjects while the smaller took the non important ones. Who knows really.

Some T42s and T205s backs side by side for comparison. Sorry no scanner:o

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=10513

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=10514

I would ask those who believe that these comprise one large 400 card series, why they think that the bird cards would state "Bird Series 1 to 100" on the backs? If the logic is that "Base Ball Series 400 Subjects" means that there are 400 TOTAL subjects among baseball/bird/military cards, wouldn't it follow that the bird series would state the same "400 subjects"? And the T80s also, for that matter?

Of course it's all just speculation, so I'm not saying that anybody is right or wrong here. All we have to go by is logic and circumstantial evidence. To me, it feels like these are all different releases, albeit with some obvious similarities.

The bird series was the first 100. Then military series and then the great baseball series:D

I do think if it was all baseball for the 400 then it would say "subjects" and not "series". The word "series" leads me to look elsewhere for the 400 thus the thought about bird and military series being included.

"subjects" and "series" really does not matter to me...that is just how they designated them on certain cards...t42 is certainly related to the gold borders in that they were issued with certain packages of cigarettes and printed by the same lithographer. But, the t42 bird series is indeed 100 subjects...or a series of 100. I have a feeling that the baseball was to be extended at some point to 400 and that something happened. It could have been anything really...break up of the ATC, problems at the printer...machine issues, ink issues, etc. The gold borders were almost certainly more expensive to produce than t206s...maybe after the ATC breakup the money was not there for such a project and it was abandoned. Who knows?

I would really wish there was more information about how and why certain cards were included with certain brands. Did they feel that people that smoked certain brands would be more apt to buy them because they had baseball cards or fish cards? Was the marketing that sophisticated back then? (I suspect it was). Would love to have been in those meetings.

Joshua

I have no basis for this but I would tend to think that there were Supposed to be 400 baseball cards. Probably the break up of the company derailed the making fot the rest of the cards. Looking at the current set there are many players, that im sure they didnt leave out on purpose.

The T80's really do have the same look to them though

Honest Long Cut
Baseball Series
Assorted Designs


You can read that many ways. To me it says it part of something else. I don't think they only half completed the intended set though. They did print for nearly 2 yrs correct. Just lesser amounts.

Honest Long Cut, Drum, Broadleaf, and Polar Bear all read: Baseball Series Assorted Designs...to me that reads that in the baseball series there are assorted designs (ie national league, american league, minor league designs). I have a feeling if they were talking about different sets they would have led with Assorted Designs Baseball Series.

Cycle, Hassan, American Beauty, Sweet Caporal, Piedmont, and Hindu all read:
Baseball Series 400 Designs. Again...sounds to me like there are 400 baseball designs...otherwise they would have led with 400 designs baseball series.

It is all semantics...and let us not forget that the set designations were completely arbitrary and created nearly 40 years after these sets were produced. Although looking at the other sets produced by the ATC that list the series and number of cards on the back at the time like the birds, fish, military, leaders, etc. nearly all of them if I recall correctly listed the amount of cards or series on the back and were fairly accurate with the number. I do not recall different assorted series being linked across the subjects. Maybe the non-sports guys could comment on this.

Joshua

T58 1st series & T205 side by side for comparison. There were 2 series of T58s IIRC, 1-50 and 50-100.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=10516

I collect a lot of the non-sports sets and I am not aware of any ATC sets that link different series of unrelated subjects into one set. There are a (very) few from this era like the T227s that have assorted athletes beyond just baseball players, but I can't think of any ATC release that combines and self-identifies athletes and non-athlete cards into a single set.

I just find it hard to believe there are zero test sheets, notes, drawings, discussions, documentation, or anything confirming there was to be 400 players. Yet they went on to print another entire T207 set. So I guess it is possible the Military and bird series were part of the 400 series if the T227's had it and really who knows what other sets were created together but because some guys categorized them they were broken up. We can only speculate but the numbers of those sets together add up better than they didn't just print them IMO.

The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set
 

1911 was a very ambitious year for American Lithographic in terms of Tobacco premiums. For starters they finished off the T206 set. Then started their Gold-Boarded sets.
These T80 Military Men were first. Here are some of my nicer T80's. I wish the T205 cards looked as pretty as these guys.

Followed by the T42 Birds set and of course the T205's. Furthermore, the T201 cards, the T77 Lighthouse series, etc., etc. Can anyone here name some more 1911 sets ?


http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps081620ee.jpg
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5274f434.jpg


http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps088f5c56.jpg
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8bcafe80.jpg



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...ameccacobb.jpg

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...hassant205.jpg




Hey guys....imagine opening a UZIT or LENOX cigarette pack in the Spring of 1911 and finding a T206 card and a T80 card.

UZIT pack
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...zogUZITx50.jpg. .http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0cdff612.jpg

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...ogUZITx50b.jpg. . http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psf850733f.jpg


LENOX pack
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6cc89446.jpg

.http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3d99c1af.jpg



TED Z

I definitely agree that it seems odd that they stopped so far short of 400 subjects, but there are so many inexplicably missing players (Lajoie, Wood, Alexander, Flick, McKechnie, Jackson, Carey, Waddell, Plank, Crawford, Cole, Coombs, just to name a few big ones) as well as examples from other sets where the T205 artwork was used for players NOT in the T205 set:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163810

It is quite plausible that there was another major series intended to be produced that simply never got off the ground for whatever reason. Given what we know from various contemporary writings, there was significant demand for the baseball player cards at that time. So I have to believe that the better option would have been to continue the baseball series with at least some of the aforementioned very popular players rather than change course and put 100 bird cards into the set instead. I mean, I like the Ruffed Grouse as much as the next guy, but I imagine I'd have much rather pulled a Nap Lajoie.

althought this will never happen, but it would be amazing, if there was a new find of the uncirculated cards that never made it into the cigarette packs, ie, "the millsing 192" or whatever. ahhhh the dreams of a T205 collector.

For why they might stop T205s and change to T207s it might be good to look at what was happening with other things from an aesthetic viewpoint. The teens were a time when the arts and crafts movement was strong with some emphasis on less ornate design. While I really like them, T205s T80 etc have always struck me as a throwback to the more ornate stuff of the 1800's. Art Nouveau might have covered T205s, and the others, but the designs don't flow like good art nouveau.
So perhaps they were a bit unpopular either as old fashioned or if art nouvaux, just not all that good.
They were also probably expensive to produce. The silver border T220s may have been a set cut short for the same reason, but were finished witout the silver borders.
T207s would have been much cheaper to make. Using maybe half as many colors. And 200 less 8 pose variations plus 200 T207s also comes in right at 400. (And yes, that's a huge stretch given nearly no shared backs between those two sets)

Steve B

Steve, its not that far of a stretch, they have broad leaf and cycle backs in common. Maybe they were transitioning to newer brands, we don't see as many cycle and even less broad leafs in t205 compared to piedmont, sweet cap, etc.

I've always found the possibility intriguing that the T207 set was meant to be the final series of T205 as the numbers would be very close to matching 400. The thing that always pulls me away from that conclusion though, is the player duplication. There are 80+ subjects, including quite a few players who were scarcely even minor stars, in the T207 set which are also in the T205 set. Some duplication would be expected, especially with the more popular players, as is seen with the different T206 series. But to repeat nearly half the set's players, with only a few of those overlapping players being top stars, seems unlikely to me.

Wasn't Shoeless Joe's first full season 1911? If there were T205s issued early 1912 doesn't it seem logical that a guy batting .400 the season before would be included in the set? So, maybe there were other T205s planned for early 1912 along with the minor leaguers...

Shoeless Joe
 

Bob:

They didn't want to put an "X" for Joe's facsimile autograph on the front of the T205. That's why he wasn't included in the set :D


Michael

Actually, I recall another explanation for the lack of Shoeless Joe and other A's stars of the time on another thread from several years ago. Something about a caramel company and player rights. Can't remember the exact thread...anybody else remember this?

Joshua

Joshua

I think you are alluding to my "Plank theory" thread in 2006, when I proposed a theory to try to explain why Plank was yanked....and, certain Phila A's players
(including Joe Jackson) did not appear in the 1st series of the T206 set......http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...y+plank+theory

More recently, I have attributed the removal of Plank from the T206 set due to the fact that he was a strong anti-tobacco guy.


Hey guys,

Regarding your linkage of T207's as an extention of the T205's....I have always suspected that the T207 cards were not produced by American Lithographic.
The printing style of the T207's is not typical of American Litho.

Furthermore, the lack of the usual T206 subjects in the T207 set makes me more suspicious that ATC contracted out this project to some other printing firm.

Anyhow, that's my thinking regarding T207's....I would be very interested in your's ?


TED Z

Steering this back to T205, I think it's a stretch to combine T207 series with T205 to reach the 400 design number. There are too many holes in that theory for me.

I also don't think the Birds or the Generals or any other non-sport set were the missing designs either. It still remains a possibility and all we can do is speculate, but this is just not the thory I choose to side with:p


I am sticking with the "unfinished set" theory where they simply didn't complete their original intention.
Perhaps the ATC breakup contributed to this. Maybe the cost of these ornate designs simply caused the new bosses to change their minds.

I don't think it would be too difficult (albeit a bit time consuming) to propose the remaining ~192 players into the set. There are lots of established stars missing from T205, likely dozens of fringe players and practically the entire Eastern League to choose from (less 12). Let's take a crack at it...

t42 birds and t80 military are not added to t205s to get to 400. Even if you add them all together they still don't come up to 400.

The t42 set has 50 white borders and 50 gold borders. The t80 set is 50 so you would only have 100 gold to ad to your 205 total.

T80s are issued with Cairo Monopol, Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi and Uzit. 205 are not issued with these brands and are not related.

Also there are Uzit and Tolstoi letters that say to issue 1 baseball and 1 military subject in each pack of cigarettes. There is no Lenox letter.

There were many non-sport sets being printed and distributed in 1911. Here are a few of them.

T44 Birthday Horoscopes
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-v...k/s889/T44.jpg

T56 Emblem Series
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Q...45/Emblem1.jpg


T57 Fable Series (First Series)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-b...8/T57+50+7.jpg

T69 Historic Homes
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-k...s988/Home1.jpg

So maybe I wasn't to far fetched to think the T205's were part of the T206 set. As you said Jim the T42's went from white to gold boarders.

Either way no one has proof to disclaim my theory or theirs. So no one really can really say for sure.

IMO no way the 205's and T206 are part of the same set, T206 just way too ugly! :p

+1

Thanks Tim

Some colorful cards....especially the T69 Historic Homes.


TED Z

+1 - beautiful cards

Great thread, Ted.

Hey Scott

Thanks

There's a lot of "gold" (cards) out there in 'dem hills :)


TED Z

The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set
 

T99 Sights & Scenes of the World
http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6155dd73.jpg.http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps89976fc8.jpg



Circa 1911 Gold-Border Tobacco premiums

208 = T205 Baseball

50 = T42 Birds

30 = T43 Birds

50 = T56 Emblems

100 = T57 Fables

50 = T69 Historic Homes

50 = T80 Military Men

50 = T99 Sights & Scenes of the World



Hey guys

Anymore of these "Golden Gems" out there ?


TED Z

The T43 bird series of 30 is very much like the T80 and T205 minor leaguers. A Canadian version was issued first in 1910 as the C45 set by Imperial Tobacco. Mecca issued the same fronts with ad backs in 1911-12. The Mecca are either factory 30 or 649 I believe.

http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/...psa8413d57.jpg

http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/...psa80c0bc3.jpg

The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set
 

Ken

Thanks for posting your colorful T43's.


TED Z

-1

need 3 more to finish the 12 ML subset! Lee, Nee and hanford!

Another horizontal miscut from this thread, I don't own it.

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/...miscutbyh6.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/...miscutfpt9.jpg

Just picked these up, never bought one before but had to have a few. Loved this old thread about the relationship between them the t205 and the birds.

Attachment 169989

Interesting thread I had not seen the first time around. In reading through it, I noted that some speculation was being made as to the significance of the terms "series" and "subjects" and how there was some commentary on the possibility that the "400 subjects" mentioned on T205 backs may have included more than just all baseball players. In other words, the theory of what many commonly think of as entirely different sets of cards, such as the T80 military personnel, were actually intended to be part of this "400 subject" master set. This theory was relying on and bolstered by the fact that the T80 cards, and other sets being released about the same time, were also using the same gold border printing and similar front designs as the T205s. I recollect at least one respondent in the thread mentioning that in no instance did there ever seem to be the term "series" applied to more than one kind of card at a time. In other words, a "series" referred to either all baseball players, or all birds, or all military personnel, etc. This was then inferred to possibly mean that when talking about the baseball player "series" of T205 cards and the 400 different "subjects" that is was very plausible that the baseball players were only a part of the 400 total expected subjects and that there was no intention to print additional baseball player T205 cards after those we already know of.

Well to throw something else into the fire to think about, it was already mentioned that most of the the T205 images (none of the 12 minor league players though) were also used on the end panels of the T202 Hassan Triple Folder cards issued in 1912, after or about the same time the T205 print run supposedly had ended. What no one had mentioned though is that some of those same T205 images were also used to create the S74 silks, which were issued as two distinct sets. The S74-1 "white" silks were all printed on the same, somewhat white, satin colored material and had a paper backing attached to them. These were supposedly first issued in 1910, which would mean they were precursors of the T205 and T202 cards. The S74-2 "colored" silks were printed on various satin colored materials, not just the single white color used for the S74-1 silks. What is interesting, and germane to this thread, is that on the S74-1 silks with the paper backing attached, the title printed on the backs clearly stated that these were from the "Baseball-Actress Series on Satin", and indeed, there were both baseball players and current period actresses issued in this release. What is also interesting is that if you look at one of the related actress silks, the design and images on the front are entirely different than the images of the ballplayers, and nothing at all like any other of the gold bordered card issues from around that time. And yet, the actresses and ballplayers are clearly listed as being part of the same "series" and set.

This goes directly against the earlier suppositions that a "series", as issued back then, was only meant to include one distinct type of image (ballplayer, bird, military person, etc.) and that even though such card sets were issued with these very different images/subject matter, the fact that they were created with such similar designs/gold borders was what was indicative of them being intended as all part of one entire set.

Still not a definitive answer, just more info to cloud the issue. The same people who were responsible for printing the T205s and T80s were also likely the same ones responsible for decisions regarding the S74s. I feel you have to consider this information in any theories being made regarding all this.

BobC

just to add in - not sure if its been mentioned in this thread yet -

T202 which had the same art as the “T205 Art” had 2 players that the t205's didn't Blair & Wood - why not? The art work was the same.

Also 1914 T330-2 Piedmont Stamps had “T205 Art” which had Bill Killifer
and the t205's did not - where they intended to? Were there supposed to be all players?

where is joe Jackson? and some of the rest of the good players?

on the other side of it - there were a few sets like you mention that had baseball plus other cards in the set in that time period.

400 Designs where and who are they??? The mystery continues!

How many Drum backs are out there...50-100?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b39d45c299.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...07837699f4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ae3b495239.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9f4c3f0d6d.jpg

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

orioles70

There are exactly 32 subjects in the T205 set printed with the DRUM back. For more info regarding these DRUM cards,
check-out this thread....... T205 DRUM vs HINDU......


T205 A=B=C=D pattern

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...genABbk25x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Lobert25bx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ggins25bxx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...rDRUMx25bx.jpg

The key factor in this A = B = C = D equation is the Black American Beauty back. NOTE that a T205 subject with a Green American Beauty back
will NOT be found with a DRUM back.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...erDRUMx50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...05Drum25xb.jpg


T205 A-B-C-D connection.......32 subjects

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert

Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter

The above 5 subjects in bold letters have yet to be confirmed with the DRUM back. But, they already have been confirmed with the A - B - C backs.
Therefore, I expect these 5 subjects will eventually be discovered with the DRUM back.


After completing my 209-card T205 set [including the Hoblitzell (no stats)]......I continued my T205 "hunt" by forming these A-B-C-D sub-sets.
Here is an example of my favorite......


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Huggins25x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uggins25bx.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, thanks for response...that's quite a project...wish you luck in your quest...what T205 cards have been found with the most different advertising on back

John

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Wolter, Leach, and Phelps are three off the top of my head.

Thanks...how many different backs for those...is there a spreadsheet showing ad backs known for each card

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A question I've had for a while is, why do the cards of Lee, Nee, Cady, Frick and McAllister (all Newark players) all have white borders? The gold on the bottom 4/5 of each card does not go all the way to the edge, as on every other T205.

Steve

That has always been a mystery. I have long thought T205s are part of the military and bird series. The link is the ML cards. Again that’s just a theory.

Bump

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Bump

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