Originally Posted by Bliggity (Post 2111984)

Wow! That's very surprising to me. I take it all back, T209-1 is an easy set to finish :) I know back a few years ago they were very hard to find, and I believe there was at least one person on here who was just missing Booles to complete their set.



Not yet. I've been thinking about it, but I do hope that someone will talk me out of it. As a completionist set collector, I don't need that kind of stress in my life!

Originally Posted by king11 (Post 2130006)

Is it Ed Abbaticchio?

Originally Posted by king11 (Post 2130041)

Hooray! Who knew that obsessive reading about the 1908 pennant race could be so useful and rewarding?

Thanks so much, Ted, for your generosity and your fun question. I have learned so much from you here on Net54, and I deeply appreciate your generosity - both for the card and for all of the research you have shared. Thank you.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1677797)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpg



Pardon me for starting this OLD MILL post by first showing you my very first T206 card which I acquired in 1981 at the famous Willow Grove (PA) Show......but, I'm proud of it.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...seblue50xb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...aseblue50x.jpg ...besides Walter Johnson, Chase is my favorite player from the deadball era.


OLD MILL backs are tricky. They are tough to find on certain 150/350 series subjects. For example....http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...neyOLDMILL.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eyOLDMILLb.jpg


OLD MILL's are more available on subjects in the 350-only series. And, OLD MILL's are most available on subjects in the 350/460 series. OLD MILL'S get somewhat tougher
to find on subjects in the 460-only series.

Furthermore, the Exclusive 12 subjects in this latter series are very, very difficult to find with OLD MILL backs......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...460x42x25x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...460x42x25x.jpg



I do not recall of any major finds of T206 OLD MILL (Major Leaguer) cards. Does any one on this forum know of any ? If so, please chime in and tell us of them.
In recent years, Mark Macrae acquired an original T206 collection located in the Northwest. It included a fairly large number of OLD MILL cards. If I recall these
cards were all from the 350/460 series, and 460-only series.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...OLDMILLx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...OLDMILLb_1.jpg



To date....309 black OLD MILL Major League subjects have been confirmed.
They are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.


150/350 Series..................123 subjects

Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Alperman
Ames (portrait)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bell (hands over head)
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bransfield
Bridwell (portrait-no cap)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro

Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Cobb (green)
Cobb (bat on shoulder)
Conroy (fielding)
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)
Crawford (throwing)
Criss
George Davis (Chicago)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Doolin
Dougherty (portrait)
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ferris

Flick
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Goode
Griffith (portrait)
Hahn
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)
F. Jones (portrait)
F. Jones (hands at hips)
Jordan (portrait)
Joss (portrait)
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)

Killian (pitching)
Kleinow (bat)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lake (New York)
Leach (portrait)
Leifield (pitching)
Liebhardt
Lobert
Lumley
Magee (portrait)
Manning (bat)
Marquard (hands at side)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
McGraw (portrait-no cap)
McGraw (pointing)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)

McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (portrait)
Murphy (throwing)
Nicholls (hands on knees)
Niles
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Owen
Parent
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schlei (catching)
Schmidt (throwing)
Sheckard (no glove)
Shipke
F. Smith (Chicago)
Spade

Stahl (no glove)
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Sullivan
L Tannehill (Chicago)
Tenney
Tinker (portrait)
Tinker (hands on knees)
Turner
Waddell (portrait)
Waddell (throwing)
Wagner (bat on left)
Wallace
Walsh
Weimer
Doc White (portrait)
Wilhelm (hands at chest)
Williams
Willis (portrait)

Wiltse (portrait-no cap)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)


350-only Series..................76 subjects

Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brown (Washington)
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Clark
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree

Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)

Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lavender
Livingstone
McCormick
Milligan
Oakes
Oberlin
Parent
Pfeister (seated)
Purtell

Quillen
Rhoades (arm extended)
Scott
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (white cap)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Wilson
Wright
Zimmerman



350/460 series..................58 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)

Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series..................46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist)

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


This survey is a work in progress....any new OLD MILL inputs are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Ronnie73 (Post 2139755)

It's been a little while since we've updated or questioned the current Old Mill checklist. Here is a list of my current differences from my checklist and why.
I'd post scans, but have been having some issues where I can't see my pictures but some others can. The problem came out of nowhere. I changed nothing on my end.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2139807)

Hi Ron
I have Imageevent host all my scans. I have never had any problems posting my scans.


OK, it has been 3 years since I last updated that OLD MILL checklist in this main T206 REFERENCE thread.

If you check-out my T206 Checklist Thread.... T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists

I think you will find it's OLD MILL checklist is up-to-date. Here is the OLD MILL excerpt from it......

TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Ronnie73 (Post 2139814)

Thanks Ted, for the checklist update, the changes look good. Maybe someone will come forward with a Josh Clark Old Mill. Also, thank you for a different option on hosting pictures on Net54. I'll have to give it a try the next time I'm trying to post an image.

Originally Posted by Ronnie73 (Post 2139755)

It's been a little while since we've updated or questioned the current Old Mill checklist. Here is a list of my current differences from my checklist and why. I'd post scans, but have been having some issues where I can't see my pictures but some others can. The problem came out of nowhere. I changed nothing on my end.

PRINT GROUP ONE - 150/350 SERIES

Joe Birmingham (Should Be Added) (PSA shows 4) (SGC shows 2)
Fred Clarke - Batting (Should Be Added) (PSA shows 3) (SGC shows 2)
Bob Ganley (Should not be on this list, being an elite 11)
Cy Seymour - Batting (Should Be Added) (PSA shows 0) (SGC shows 1) Patrick Romolo posted a scan recently, also.

PRINT GROUP TWO - 350 ONLY SERIES

Josh Clark (Should be removed) (Both Pop Reports Show Zero) Unless a scan can be confirmed. T206Resource shows as confirmed, but I question it.
Chief Myers - Fielding (Should Be Added) (PSA shows 13) (SGC shows 8)

Originally Posted by brianp-beme (Post 2146737)

Your T207 Hoff is a great looking card, and the Hoff card is one of the nicer portraits in the set. The one I have is my only T207 Cycle, and it has the added bonus of Buck Barker scribbling on its back as well. All of this makes it one of my T207 favorites.
Brian

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector (Post 2146749)

Is this the thread for general T206 discussion/questions? Because I wanted to talk about Hindu Browns.

As I put together my Excel master tracker for my portraits project, and as I did my research on the different backs, I obviously came to understand that Hindu Brown was the toughest back for the 150 series, and I'd have to track down a lot of tough HoF in the Hindu back. However, I don't think I appreciated just how scarce some of these backs actually are.

Today I was taking a look through ebay just to see what was listed and what has been sold in the last 3 months in the Hindu Brown department, and let me tell you, its not a lot at all.

21 total sales in the last 3 months
12 cards currently listed for sale

They are still more populous than Carolina Brights, Broad Leaf, Lenox, Drum, and Uzit, but not that much more. Of the 21 sales noted above, it was actually less than 21 unique subjects, because there were multiple Griffith and Clarkes sold.

For the purposes of my master portrait project, I created 3 groups of backs: All Piedmonts + SweetCaps (except Piedmont 42), then AB, Cycle, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear, Sovereign, Tolstoi and P42, and the third group of Hindu Brown/Red, Carolina Brights, Broad Leaf, Drum, Lenox and Uzit. I initially thought it might have been wrong to group the Brown Hindu in with that 3rd "ultra rare" group, but the more I think about it, the more I think that is appropriate at this point, given their availability.

I put together a combined PSA + SGC Pop report for the portraits back in June/July, and the combined populations of Hindu Brown range from 9 (O'Leary) to 38 (WaJo) with an average of about 20.

What is interesting is that if you compare the Hindu Brown totals to a back that is perceived to be less scarce like Tolstoi, it is quite interesting. There are currently 93 Tolstois listed on ebay (I didnt check each one, but it looks like this count is close), and there were 54 Tolstois sold in the last 3 months. When you dig into pop reports, I have 54 possible portraits in a Tolstoi back, with pops ranging from 1 (Rossman) to 44 (Chance Yellow and Crandall w/Cap), with an average population of 14. So on average, a Tolstoi back will be more rare than a Brown Hindu for the portrait subjects, but there are more Tolstois on the market than Brown Hindus. Using the old multipliers for pricing, if I remember right the Tolstoi was around 3x and the Brown Hindu was around 14x in Scot Reader's 2012 update.

As of now, I believe the complete Tolstoi checklist is 255 cards, with another 59 that are possible/probable. The Hindu Brown checklist is 136 cards. There is no way to directly compare them, since no subject with a Brown Hindu back also appears with a Tolstoi back.

Curious to hear thoughts on this

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2147290)

Hi James, I have 254 Tolstoi's confirmed the same list as t206resource I think it's actually 253 (I believe Bender with trees is a PSA flip error) which
one do you have confirmed that's not confirmed on this list?

https://www.t206resource.com/Tolstoi%20Checklist.html

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2147290)

Hi James, I have 254 Tolstoi's confirmed the same list as t206resource I think it's actually 253 (I believe Bender with trees is a PSA flip error) which
one do you have confirmed that's not confirmed on this list?

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector (Post 2147297)

I took that checklist total (314) and subtracted all the blueish green shaded entries which are "should exist" and I got to 255, but I counted it by hand obviously. Ted noted that he thinks it is 255 as well, but I am honestly not sure.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2147292)

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg


When American Lithographic started printing the 350 Series T206's, they introduced new T-brands: AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and TOLSTOI .

TOLSTOI print runs started circa early 1910. Continued to the end of the T206 press runs (Spring 1911). To date, 255 subjects have been confirmed. Most TOLSTOI cards
are not tough to find. However, certain 350-only subjects printed early in 1910 must have been short-printed, as they are very tough to find.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ackTOLSTOI.jpg

TOLSTOI checklist (255 subjects) confirmed. They are listed here according to their respective T206 series.

350-only Series...................146 subjects

Abstein
Anderson
Arellanes
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Bender (trees)............. ?
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burns
Bush
Byrne
Campbell
Carrigan

Casey
Chappelle
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Milwaukee)
Collins (A's)
Cree
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dineen
Doolan (fielding)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Joe Doyle (NY)
Dubuc
Jack Dunn

Joe Dunn
Dygert
Easterly
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (throwing)
Fletcher
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom
Hartsell
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis AL)

Hofman
Howard (Chicago NL)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox

Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
McElveen
McGinnity
McIntyre (Detroit)
McLean
Merritt
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago NL)

Mowrey
Murray (bat)
Myers (batting)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Nichols (bat)
Oakes
O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhoades (hands at chest)

Rhodes
Ritter
Rossman
Rudolph
Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Slagle
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Starr
Stanage
Stephens
Strang
Summers
Taylor

Thomas
Unglaub
Warhop
Willett
Wilson
Zimmerman


350/460 series...................57 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


460-only Series......…..........46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist}

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)



This is a work is stillin progress.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Archive (Post 638271)

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>SCOT<br /><br />I found 5 more Tolstoi's........<br /><br />Campbell<br /><br />Cree<br /><br />Downs<br /><br />Lattimore<br /><br />Merritt<br /><br /><br />TED Z

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2149662)

Pat R

I've been away since last Friday. I was set-up at the Philly Show (3 days). Visiting friends this week. When I return home,
I'll try to sort thru my records to see what I come up with.


Meanwhile, when are you going to correct your "buddies" (or whoever) at T206Resource regarding these 5 cards:

Ames (Hands Above Head) listed as "confirmed" with an AB460 back. This is absolutely a NO-PRINT.

Furthermore, the T206Resource checklist regarding PIEDMONT 350-460/42 includes these 4 subjects listed as "confirmed":

Bergen (catching)
Chance (batting)
Murray (portrait)
Wiltse (Portrait - With Cap)

These 4 cards are absolutely NO-PRINTS with PIEDMONT 350-460/42 backs.

For over 15 years, there are three of us, who individually, put together our P42 runs. And we have compared our experiences
collecting this sub-set. We are convinced that T206Resource is inaccurate, listing these 4 cards as "confirmed" with this back.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2149776)

Here's the Wiltse Ted

Attachment 481065

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 790691)

I have removed Bergen from the confirmed list, as I can't find whatever evidence I had that it was confirmed.
And like you, I have never seen one.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 790798)

I must say....that surprised me. I cannot find any evidence of Chance (batting) with a PIEDMONT 460/42 back.
I will look into why my initials are in that slot on the super-set.
TED Z

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2149952)

Why do we have to repeat the same old stuff, over and over again ?

What you have posted are 15-year old data when Bill Brown first posted his T206 super-set spreadsheet in 2006. For the most part Bill's Excel sheet is accurate.
However, a number of wrong inputs did get reported.

Subsequently, as new information regarding T206 front/back patterns as a result of my theories (and other's theories), I contacted Net54er's who had inputted
questionable front/back combos on the spreadsheet. Starting with Ames (hands over head) / AB460. The guy who inputted this admitted he made a mistake.

I contacted the person who provided the Overall (hands at waist level). He realized he had made a mistake, since his card was the Overall (hand at face level).

Regarding Bergen.....here is my post on a thread regarding P42 cards dated: 3-16-2010


Regarding Chance.....here is my post on a thread regarding P42 cards dated: 3-17- 2010



Furthermore, Adam Goldenberg, Craig Wright, and I were working on PIEDMONT #42 runs. The 3 of us kept in touch, trading and selling P42s to each other;
and, comparing notes. I think Adam completed his run. I am not certain if Craig did. All three of us agreed that only 9 subjects in the 460-only Series were
printed with P42. Several years have past since then, and NO additional new P42's have been discovered.

Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 831131)

The Bergen (catching) PIEDMONT factory 42 card has been confirmed.

The grand total is now 75 (out of 109) cards with PIEDMONT factory 42 backs that have been confirmed.
<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bp46042.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list............

350/460 Series......63 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series......12 cards

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


This 460-only Series card has been reported but not 100% confirmed......

Chance (bat)


Any new PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 inputs are greatly appreciated.


Thanks to all who have contributed to this T206 survey.

TED Z

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1429337)

With the recent discovery of Tinker (bat off shoulder) the confirmed total now is 72 subjects with the PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 back.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tomline50x.jpg



PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list............

350/460 Series......63 subjects (complete)

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series......9 subjects

Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Other Net54 sources claim that the following 4 subjects are confirmed.

Chance (batting)
Bergen (catching)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

My research indicates that these 4 subjects are PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 No-Prints.



TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2149662)

Pat R

I've been away since last Friday. I was set-up at the Philly Show (3 days). Visiting friends this week. When I return home,
I'll try to sort thru my records to see what I come up with.


Meanwhile, when are you going to correct your "buddies" (or whoever) at T206Resource regarding these 5 cards:

Ames (Hands Above Head) listed as "confirmed" with an AB460 back. This is absolutely a NO-PRINT.

Furthermore, the T206Resource checklist regarding PIEDMONT 350-460/42 includes these 4 subjects listed as "confirmed":

Bergen (catching)
Chance (batting)
Murray (portrait)
Wiltse (Portrait - With Cap)

These 4 cards are absolutely NO-PRINTS with PIEDMONT 350-460/42 backs.

For over 15 years, there are three of us, who individually, put together our P42 runs. And we have compared our experiences
collecting this sub-set. We are convinced that T206Resource is inaccurate, listing these 4 cards as "confirmed" with this back.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2149973)

This ends my discussion with you. Once again, for the umpteenth time, you have "side-tracked" the Topic of this thread.
Go play your "negative games" with some one else. This ends any further discussion with you....PERIOD !


Dated 7-9-2015.....

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2146840)

Chet Hoff Hoff made his big league debut in September 1911, the Highlanders were playing at Hilltop Park in the Washington Heights section of Manhattan. In his second major
league game, Hoff, a 20-year-old left-hander fresh off the Westchester County sandlots was summoned in relief against the Detroit Tigers. Chet recalled it 80 years later....."the
batter fouled off two -- the first two strikes were fastballs. The 3rd strike I threw him was a fast curve. It was a perfect strike over the plate and he looked at it. But at that time
I didn't know who he was, no more than the man in the moon, until the next morning I picked up The New York Journal. The big red headlines in the paper says Hoff Strikes Out
Ty Cobb. I couldn't believe it at first. It was the biggest thrill of my Baseball career."

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2150062)

Well I don't know what to tell you Ted they are not my lists. What's wrong with the Sovereign lists?

For what it's worth there is a Piedmont factory 42 Murray in the PSA pop reports.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2150492)

[/B]


I found it and it turns out it's another PSA label error.

Attachment 481423

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2149862)

Ted I'm not sure why you're asking me about someone else's list but some research indicates the following cards in question were at some point confirmed by the following people....

Bergen (catching) Piedmont factory 42
Anonymous
Ted Z
Brian W


Murry (portrait) Piedmont factory 42
Dave Wipple
Ted Z
Scot R


Overall (hands at waist) Piedmont factory 42
Ted Z
Scot R

Chance (batting) Piedmont factory 42
Had your initials on Bill Browns super set spreadsheet

Originally Posted by sreader3 (Post 2150879)

Well since my name was mentioned I might as well respond. While I did conduct large surveys back in the day, it is possible that whatever Murray and/or Overall P42 “confirmation” data I may have published came from reports by advanced collectors with whom I was in touch. It is also possible that these data points resulted from ebay listings with incorrect PSA flips or back scans, which happened from time to time.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2151034)

Hi Scot

The Murray and the Overall mistakes are not your fault. One of the first threads regarding PIEDMONT #42 cards dates back to December 2006.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...3456&highlight

Brian Weisner posted this list of his P#42 cards.....

Hi Ted,
Here is the list of my 42's:

BAKERTHROW
COBBBAT OFF
COBBBAT OFF
CRAWFORDBAT
KLEINOWBOSTON
KONETCHYGL LOW
LATHAMPOR
LATHAMNY NAT
MANNINGPITCH
MATHEWSONDARK
MATHEWSONDCAP
MCINTYREBR&CH
OVERALLTHROW
PELTYVERT
SWEENEYTHROW
SEYMOURTHROW
SMITHCHI&BOS
SNODGRASSCATCH
WAGNERRIGHT
WHITECHI

However, this Overall card was inputted into the Super-Set spreadsheet as the 460-only series version of Overall (Hands at Waist).
It should have been entered in as the "Hand at Face" (350/460 series) version.

Your 2005 - 2006 publication of "Inside T206" inspired many of us Net54ers to seriously explore the complexities of the T206 set.
Resulting in discoveries, such, as the...Elite 11.....Exclusive 12.....Mutually-Exclusive 350/460 Series.....Red-Ink Twins....etc., etc.
Which provided us clearer understanding of how these cards were printed. Thereby informing us of valid T206 front/back combos.


Take care my good friend,

TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 831131)

The Bergen (catching) PIEDMONT factory 42 card has been confirmed.

The grand total is now 75 (out of 109) cards with PIEDMONT factory 42 backs that have been confirmed.
<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bp46042.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list............

350/460 Series......63 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series......12 cards

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


This 460-only Series card has been reported but not 100% confirmed......

Chance (bat)


Any new PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 inputs are greatly appreciated.


Thanks to all who have contributed to this T206 survey.

TED Z

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman (Post 1521887)

Ted,

I would like to see scans of the following confirmed Piedmont 42's:

Bergen Catching
Murray Portrait
Overall Yellow Sky

I have been researching and looking for proof of these cards existing and have had no luck. With them confirmed via both yourself and T206 resource I would have to believe their are scans somewhere.

If so then I need to add these to my needed for completion list.

Thanks in advance !!!

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2151429)

My post wasn't a criticism towards Scot or anyone else, I was just pointing out that Bergen, Murray, and Overall hands at waist were previously confirmed on other lists too and they were still on Ted's list until Adam questioned them in 2016.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1429337)

With the recent discovery of Tinker (bat off shoulder) the confirmed total now is 72 subjects with the PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 back.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tomline50x.jpg

PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list............

350/460 Series......63 subjects (complete)

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



460-only Series......9 subjects

Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Other Net54 sources claim that the following 4 subjects are confirmed.

Chance (batting)
Bergen (catching)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

My research indicates that these 4 subjects are PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 No-Prints.



TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2151492)

Yes, I edited my 7-9-15 post to include Tinker.....

Last edited by tedzan; 09-21-2017 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Added Tinker in 350/460 series.


What really annoys me about your "bull-crap", Pat, is that your nasty comments are suggesting that Adam and I were having a dispute over these cards. Which is a blatant LIE !

Hey Net54ers....let me tell you this.....
I helped Adam Goldenberg with his PIEDMONT #42 collection and his AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 collection in recent years. He and I have met at the National several times, and we
have had some great conversations in person (and via email, or over the telephone).

For this man (Pat) to engage in his constant meaningless attacks towards me on Net54 is reprehensible. This forum is not intended to operate like the various toxic social media.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by parkerj33 (Post 2152104)

Hey Ted, great work!....i assume you saw this?

jennings (hands over head) brown lenox found

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...5R5K9n_Mykih-A

Just referred back to your post 171, and you of course predicted this gem would be found one day....and today is the day!

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 1409690)

They're so scarce it could just be a coincidence but all 22 confirmed Brown
Lenox subjects are among the 75 AB 460 subjects.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 1463421)

I have mentioned this once before but it didn't receive any opinions either
way so I thought I would try it here.

All of the confirmed Brown Lenox subjects are also AB 460 subjects so I was
thinking it might be possible that some(or all) of the sheets used for the
AB 460's were also used for the Brown Lenox.

While the Brown Lenox is an extremely rare back (22 different subjects confirmed so far) it seems odd that none of the possible 34 non AB 460
subjects has been confirmed with a Brown Lenox. So could it be that not all Black Lenox subjects are possible with Brown Lenox and only AB 460 subjects are?

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1463551)

Very interesting observation, Pat.

We do know that some of the sheets used to print the AB 460 backs were also used to print the UZIT backs.

But it remains to be seen if this is also true for the AB 460 cards and the brown LENOX cards, since (to date)
there are only 22 examples of the brown LENOX cards.

Furthermore, it is quite puzzling that 4 subjects (Lajoie, Overall, Pfeister, Wagner) of these 22 brown LENOX
cards have yet to be confirmed with black LENOX backs ? ? ? ?


Incidentally, there are 35 subjects that are AB 460 No-Prints (not 34).



TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 1463563)

I agree with you Ted, it's not much to gauge off with only 22 confirmed subjects but with 32% of the subjects being AB 460 no prints you would think at least a couple of the Confirmed Brown Lenox would be from this group if they are a possible front back combo.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1463589)

In any event, I think this connection is worth tracking....who knows where it will lead us.

Only The Monster knows !


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1492488)

American Lithographic (ALC) printed the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, PIEDMONT 460 (Factory 42), LENOX, and UZIT cards circa...Feb 1911. Concurrently, ALC started producing
their Gold-bordered cards, beginning with their T80 (Military Series) which were printed with T206-type backs (LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, UZIT) and CAIRO MONOPOL.
The latter T-brand back was printed using BROWN ink.

I contend that the T206 brown LENOX cards are simply the result an ALC printer who had just completed a press run of T80 cards with CAIRO MONOPOL backs, then failed to
switch to Black ink in order to proceed with the following press run of T206 black LENOX cards.

In time, if my theory proves to be true, we could discover as many as 75 subjects with brown LENOX backs. My 75 number tracks with the PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 number.
Which comprises of 63 subjects from the 350/460 series plus 12 subjects from the 460-only series.

Also, it has been suggested by Pat R in another thread, that brown LENOX cards track with the 350/460 series subjects in the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 press run (28 subjects).

In any event, we all know how extremely rare these brown LENOX cards are. And, this fact is consistent with the T80 CAIRO MONOPOL cards, which are very difficult to find.
I don't think that this is just a mere coincidence.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...amLENOXx50.jpg.http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psc8c09003.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...iroMonopol.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...iroMonopol.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ZITbacks50.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...TurkUzit50.jpg



Currently, there are only 23 confirmed T206 subjects with brown LENOX backs......

350/460 series

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


460-only series

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Show us your brown LENOX cards....and, any responses to this thread will be greatly appreciated.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 797628)

4-7-2010

Regarding your..........

"I'm glad Jim R asked first because I respect his knowledge when it
comes to the tougher backs so the answer must not be obvious.
Why are they no-prints?"


It gets somewhat complicated; however, here's my answer to you..........

My observations of of several surveys of BROAD LEAF 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards......combined with my research
while putting together my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set has resulted in what appears to be a well-defined pattern.

My theory is......American Lithographic (ALC) printed simultaneous press runs of BROAD LEAF 460 and Red HINDU cards
with fronts common to both (Winter of 1910). In the Spring of 1911, ALC printed simultaneous press runs of AMERICAN
BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (with fronts common to both).

Furthermore, because of the timeline difference (4 months) the BL 460 / Red HINDU pairs are mutually exclusive with the
AB 460 / UZIT pairs. Therefore, assuming my theory is true, this pattern allows us to predict which front/back combos
were printed, As a consequence, we are also have the ability to determine which front/back combos are NO-PRINTS.

The three lists of BROAD LEAF 460 that I have posted in this thread are the results of this research. I have a very high
confidence factor that these lists are an accurate representation of "The Monster" with respect to not only the BL 460
cards; but also, the AB 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT cards.

Thanks for your excellent question,

TED Z

Originally Posted by rebelsart (Post 797896)

Hello Ted,
Always enjoy reading your postings on the T206 back breakdowns.

I am confused by your BL460/Hindu red and AB460/Uzit patterns.

I show some cards in the 350/460 series that have been confirmed with multiples of these backs. For example:

Burch, fielding confirmed with BL460, Hindu Red, Lenox, Uzit.
Mullin, batting - my list shows I have seen this one with BL460, and have a Uzit.
Cobb, red - confirmed with BL460, Lenox, Uzit, and a PSA graded Hindu red.
Downey, batting - confirmed with BL460, Hindu Red, Lenox, Uzit.

Since we have no recorded front/back information until Bill Heitman began in 1980 we are still searching to confirm many of these possiblities. Every year we find some "new" combinations and add to these lists.
Art

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 797951)

Here is what my research indicates......

Cobb (red portrait)......
Indeed, I have listed this card with a BL 460 back......but, I have to disagree with you that it exists with either a Red HINDU
back or, a UZIT back. The PSA graded Red HINDU (the only one ever seen), that was in last year's auction, is very suspect.
And, none of the Six Super Prints (of which this Cobb is one) were printed with the UZIT back.

Downey (batting)......
Do you have this card with a UZIT back ? I've never seen this card with a UZIT back.

Mullin (batting)......
I have this card with AB 460 and UZIT backs. I've never seen this card with a BL460 back.

Burch (fielding)......
The only one of these 4 backs I have of this card is an AB 460. I know that the Super-Set indicates that BL 460, Red HINDU,
and UZIT have been seen. But, neither of these 3 backs have been confirmed by anyone.

The approx. 4800 inputs on the Super-Set (S-S) are 99.5 % accurate. However, I have been suspect of some of this data.
So, I have contacted about a dozen people who have inputted such data to the S-S; and, it turned out in 6 cases that their
inputs were mistaken.
I tell you this because I'm skeptical about the BL 460 and/or the Red HINDU backs regarding Burch. Can you positively verify
if Burch exists with a BL 460 and/or a Red HINDU ?

Perhaps, Burch is the one anomaly to my AB 460 / UZIT or BL 460 / Red HINDU pattern theory. At this point, I cannot tell from
the data that exists. I'm hoping you can clarify this subject ?

Best regards,

TED Z

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2152235)

Hey guys,

Once again Pat R has "shot himself in the foot" !

I presented my theory about the Mutually-Exclusive printing of the 350/460 series cards on this forum on April 7, 2010. Pat's above post (#1336) is full of fabrications.
And it has become very tiresome.

Here are several excerpts from my Net54 thread on April 7-8th, 2010. Take the time to read them, then tell us: does this sound like I stole this theory from someone else ?


Here is my original presentation......


Art Martineau responded 4-8-2010.....


I responded to Art Martineau 4-8-2010.....



This story continues. If it is of any interest to any of you guys, click on this link: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122474

Meanwhile, let's hope Pat R is eventually cured of his "Ted derangement syndrome" that constantly attacks me with his fabricated "bull-s**t" posts,
that "hi-jacks" that given thread's meaningful conversation on said Topic.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2152238)

And I'm the one that attacks you?

This post has nothing to do with the Brown Lenox and you know it.

At least I show you enough respect to answer your questions. In the thread you posted a link to why did you go back and "correct a typo" on 1-14-2021 in all the posts that have your list in them in a thread that was last posted in on 4-24-2010?

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2152246)

Hey guy,
I am not the one who starts these negative, meaningless diatribes. There are very few threads in which I have posted in recent years in which you have had anything positive or
meaningful in your responses to my posts. You are constantly "hi-jacking" an interesting (or meaningful) discussion to insert your "negativism".

To be honest with you, yes I the react to your horse-crap. But, seriously speaking, I feel sorry for you. You have a certain talent in doing research in this hobby that is good. But,
you negate all that with your constant meaningless attacks.

I try to avoid such attacks....but, when you accuse me of "stealing" my theory from some one else, I am not going to allow you to get away with such a dishonest accusation.

As they say, if you have nothing good to say about some one, then don't say it at all. This forum was not intended to operate like the toxic social media ones do.

Finally, I have never initiated a negative comment on you. So, why do you persist to attack me ? ?


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2152389)

Once again you throw up a smoke screen to avoid answering a question that makes you look sneaky. Why would you edit several posts in a thread 10 years after it was last active I can't think of many reasons why someone would do this.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2152437)

To UPDATE information....or is that to complicated for your "obsessive mind" to comprehend !

Now, do you mind if the rest of us return to the main Topic on this thread ! ?


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 797872)

I really appreciate all your complimentary words here. They have engendered a great feeling in me. Some folks try to dazzle
you with their PSA8 graded cards....I'd rather dazzle you with some high-level research into the mystery's of BB card issues.

John W
I am upping the ante on this REWARD to $20 for CONFIRMED info on the 28 cards that I claim are BL 460 "NO-PRINTS". I am
quite confident that these 28 cards wont be found with BL 460 backs (simply because my research suggests that they were
never printed).

Hey guys, I may be proven wrong on this......and, I welcome that. However, I do not expect to go broke paying out Andrew
Jackson greenbacks.


Please note....I still think that there is a good probability that any (or all) of the following cards will eventually be found with
BL 460 backs....and, my offer stands to pay anyone $20 for the verification of any of these....."Elusive Eight".

[B]1 Ames (hands over head)
2 Bender (no trees)
3 Chance (portrait-yellow)
4 Chase (portrait-blue)
5 Chase (dark cap)
6 Cobb (bat off shoulder)
7 Donlin (bat)
8 Doyle (bat)
9 Magee (bat)[/B]


Best regards to all of you,

TED Z

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 798044)

Regarding your......

" I understand that you know which 26 different BL460s exist, and which 8 are likely to exist, but do you have any population
numbers (total graded and/or non-graded) on any of the known cards? "

I do not do POP reports, so I can't provide you any population #'s. Anyhow PSA #'s, for the most part, would be unrepresent-
ative. In 30 years of collecting T206's, I've seen at least one example of 20 of the 26 listed BL 460 cards.

In a about 5 cases, I have seen 2 examples. Perhaps, I might just start a survey here to see what kind of population exists
among the BL 460 cards.



TED Z

Originally Posted by Archive (Post 642668)

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>There are 103 possible T206's that could have been printed with the American Beauty 460 back. But,<br>there are always those &quot;nasty&quot; No-Prints that keep you guessing. After 4 years of hunting for AB 460<br>cards, it appears that 33 Subjects are No-Prints. This of course is subject to revision, if additional AB<br>460's are found.<br><br>So, it's taken me 4 years to acquire 70 cards. It took me only 11 months to put together a 521 card<br>T206 Piedmont set. So, that gives you an idea how tough these AB 460 cards are.<br><br>Since the AB 460 back has a Factory 42 (North Carolina) identification, we can presume these cards<br>were issued at the very end of the T206 production run (circa 1911). So, I thought it would be cool<br>to collect this final T206 issue.<br><br><br><img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/aab460array12.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/bab460array12.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/ab460cranlajburmcgraw.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><br>Listed here are the 70 cards in my set. The 350/460 Series is first and the 460-only Series follows.....<br><br>350/460 Series......30 cards<br><br>Ames (hands above head)<br>Baker<br>Berger<br>Bradley (bat)<br>Burch (fielding)<br>Cobb (bat off)<br>Conroy (bat)<br>Crawford (bat)<br>Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)<br>Jennings (one hand)<br>Jennings (two habds)<br>Jordan (bat)<br>Lajoie (bat)<br>Lake (no ball)<br>Leach (cap)<br>Leifield (bat)<br>Manning (pitching)<br>McQuillan (bat)<br>Mullin (bat)<br>Overall (yellow sky)<br>Pelty (vertical)<br>Pfeister (throwing)<br>Snodgrass (catching)<br>Steinfeldt (bat)<br>Tinker (bat off)<br>Wagner (bat on right)<br>Willetts<br>Willis (bat)<br>Wilhelm (bat)<br>Wiltse (throwing)<br><br>460-only Series......40 cards<br><br>Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)<br>Ball (Cleveland)<br>Bergen (catching)<br>Bridwell (cap)<br>Camnitz (arms at side)<br>Camnitz (arms up)<br>Chance (bat)<br>Chase (Trophy)<br>Crandall (cap)<br>Devore<br>Doyle (portrait)<br>Duffy<br>Ford<br>Frill<br>Gandil<br> Geyer<br>Howell (hands at waist)<br>Hummell<br>Lake (with ball)<br>Latham<br>Marquard (follow thru)<br>McGraw (glove at hip)<br>Meyers<br>Needham<br>Oldring (bat)<br>Overall (blue sky)<br>Payne<br>Pfeffer<br>Schaefer (Washington)<br>Schulte (back view)<br>Schlei (bat)<br>Seymour (portrait)<br>Sheckard (glove)<br>F. Smith (Chicago &amp; Boston)<br>H. Smith (Brooklyn)<br>Stovall (bat)<br>Tannehill (Chicago)<br>Tinker (bat on)<br>Wheat<br>Wiltse (portrait w/cap)<br><br>I'd very much appreciate any additions to this sub-set....as I said, I am not 100% certain that these<br>70 cards complete this run. Actually, I would have expected more of them from the 460-only Series.<br><br>So, once more I'm asking you T206 collectors to check-out you sets and see if you have any AB 460<br>cards that are not on my list ?<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>TED Z<br><br><br><br>

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1793570)

T206Resource (and other sources on Net54) continue the myth that Ames (hands over head) is "confirmed" with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) back.
Furthermore, these sources also claim that this same Ames card has been confirmed with the UZIT back.

These are IMPOSSIBLE front/back combos !

I'm so certain that the above front/back combos do NOT exist, that I am willing to offer a $500 reward to anyone here who can show me a legitimate card
of Ames with an AB 460 or UZIT back.....thereby disproving my theory.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eries1990x.jpg > > > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...auty460b34.jpg


. . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITxb.jpg > > > > > > > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eries2009x.jpg


A year ago I offered a $500 reward....check-out this thread > http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240984. Obviously, no such Ames card(s) showed up.
One enduring quality of most National's is that you can find virtually every BB card ever issued. So, I figured I would give this experiment one more try.

The Ames (hands over head) is a 350/460 series subject. My research indicates American Lithographic printed the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 backs and
the Red HINDU backs simultaneously......"matched pairs".

Ames has been confirmed with the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 back. It has not yet been confirmed with the Red HINDU back. But, it's just a matter of time
that this Ames card with a Red HINDU back will be discovered.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0factory42.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tCap460x42.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dHINDUx50b.jpg



Furthermore, Ames card is not the only incorrect info in T206Resource....4 subjects in T206Resource's PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 listing are identified as "confirmed".

These 4 cards, which T206Resource claims to be confirmed, have never been seen ** with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 backs......

Bergen (catching)
Chance (batting)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

For the most part, T206Resource is a dependable site to rely on.....but, they are absolutely mis-informing T206 collectors on these 6 cards noted in this thread.

You can contact me via email.... tedzan11@comcast.net. Or, look for me at the National. I'll be wandering about with $1000 burning a hole in my pocket.
So, if you have either one of these Ames cards to show me, and the card is authentic, then the $500 reward is yours....payable on the spot with cash.


** Note.... In the following post here these facts presented here will be reinforced.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by stutor (Post 2155780)

Great cards (as always) Ted. The Jennings 350/460 poses come to mind. They obviously aren’t as close as the Wagner cards you posted, but they are similar. I’ll add a Wagner pic so I’m not getting off track too badly.

Originally Posted by jggames (Post 2155865)

Hey Ted, Here’s the Uzit from my binder.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss (Post 2156054)

I used to have this Wagner. It was almost enough to start me on a backrun; I am thankful I did not undertake that frolic

Nice cards Sonny!

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss (Post 2156072)

Hi Ted!

My current t215 Pirate - an upgrade from the “other Wagner”

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2156125)

Ryan

Does that Pirate Tinker complete your Tobacco card run of the Bat Off Shoulder image ?.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss (Post 2156733)

Sorry Just seeing this. My t215 pirate is Chance batting. I have a complete “t206” tinker bat off run, but I do need t214, t215-2 and t215 pirate (I think tinker bat off comes in those)