2nd qtr. 54-48 warriors....

:)

If not too much time has passed, I would definitely pursue your refunds via either eBay or PayPal (NOT PWCC). Both eBay and PayPal will refund you in full, and then they will collect the funds from PWCC. That way, you won't have to play the waiting game indefinitely, and won't have to worry about actually getting your refund. Ebay will take the headache out of it, and they'll collect the funds from PWCC after the fact.

As long as it's within the accepted time frame, why would anyone go the more difficult and problematic route? With all of its flaws, at least eBay has excellent Buyer Protection Policies.

That was originally a $9,000 card that Moser cracked out and doctored. So much for the claim on here that Moser would not have taken a chance by "conserving" the $3,000 Musial card. The risk/reward trade off is rather high when a one grade bump is worth $32K.

I don't really think many people are going down the more problematic route if the card was a recent purchase. It is the people with Moser cards from a couple years ago that are over a barrel.

That's a shame for those unfortunate collectors... that's why I emphasized the "accepted" eBay time frame.

Hopefully PWCC and PSA will make good on their respective promises/guarantees, and make these victims whole again.

Best of luck to the hundreds pf people impacted!

I would not send my card to PWCC without cash in hand. 'Work' to get me a refund? Bullshit. I got that swinging.

No way, they will pull the SGC card

"Its under federal investigation, so seek restitution from the FBI"

SGC added if I sent them the flip, they would reimburse me the grading fee. I thought that was cute.

A slimmed down Leaf Dempsey.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2869

As long as you can afford to lose, which he clearly can, it's just a risk reward calculation for him. Anyone who thought he wouldn't crack out the Musial without some assurance of a bump from the inside doesn't understand the scale on which he operates, or the mindset.

+1

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0to%20hell.jpg

Damn you to hell PWCC and Moser!

I understand that everything that has been uncovered to this point isn't even a scratch on the tip of a very huge iceberg.

I don't understand the mind set of those that don't understand how shady the hobby is. My favorite part is how they think something could be going on but it doesn't affect them. I love the I collect this and the scammers stay away from it because there is no real $ in it.LOL dream on sucker. Scammers are selling $2 fake autographed cards up to the most expensive card in the hobby.

Lets not forget the morons who think their PSA card(s) are not affected because this is something new.LOL PSA has been a scam since the beginning. They 100% need to fail if this hobby is going to go forward and clean itself up.

I know my posts are not very popular on this forum but at least they are honest.

Boxing tu, Brute.

Yeah, "it doesn't affect me" is certainly one of the more common defense mechanisms people employ. I am probably guilty of it myself.

+1, especially on the PSA part.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

This is how it works in my experience.

Me: Sorry to tell you but that card is altered.

Other: I can see how it could be altered but mine is NOT.

Me: Your card is altered and I explain how.

Other: Now this gets 3 different responses.
1) Least common, That sucks I now have a altered card in my collection.
2) Most common, I see the card listed as a rare error for sale within a few days by the person I was trying to help.
3) Have the card owner call me names and tell me how important they are in the hobby and how stupid I am. Then they list it as a rare error card for sale.

I won't out names but I have had #s 2 and 3 happen on this forum from some very respected members.:eek:

You are absolutely correct. Some people will go into Car analogies instead of just opening their eyes and see the nose in front of their face.

I hope PSA goes bankrupt much like I hoped GM would go bankrupt back in 1982 when My Trans Am was a lemon. I never purchased another GM piece of S***. My dream came true many years later but then the government inexplicably bailed them out. Maybe PSA will get bailed out by the Government?

There's your car analogy for the day car guys, enjoy....

Meanwhile CLCT stock has recovered and then some from the drop the other day. Not so easy to short stock as some folks seem to think.

It's very easy to short and is up today on 10K shares.

It might be easy to get shares to short but it is a terrible short.

No liquidity and the open interest in the options market is tiny with massive spreads.

It is one thing to not like CLCT and hope for its demise but a terrible trading stock.

Maybe with inside information, but otherwise not so sure about that.

What does inside information have to do with whether it’s easy to short or not? And aside from that with what we have seen on this board and blowout over the past few weeks would you want to be a shareholder of this company?

If by easy you simply mean the process, then nothing, but I thought you were referring to the chances of success.

I wouldn't want anything to do with this stock in either direction at this point. I think the market impact of this stuff is very hard to predict.

Now I understand what you meant. And as for where the stock goes I guess it depends on how much liability and litigation comes out of this. Probably tough to tell now but I know if I thought I had an affected card I would not let them get away without honoring their guarantee.

We'll see. Companies are very adept at settling lawsuits cheaply enough not to impact the stock price, particularly with plaintiffs' lawyers who want a payday more than anything and settle for pennies on the dollar. Most litigation I do on the defense side, if we don't win at the motion stage, ends up this way.

I'm starting to think you're like Mike O'Keeffe and just hate cards.

It is not my area of expertise but it would seem that CLCT might carry some form of errors and omissions insurance. Just doing a quick Google search it can cover professional advice and it would seem that a graded altered card could fall under inaccurate advice.

At the end of the quarter in March CLCT had 15.7 million in cash and is on pace to earn roughly 9.6 million in their current fiscal year. I keep reading posts about the 832k reserve fund and people are forgetting this is just a bad debt reserve and should they have to payout more they have plenty of other resources to stay a float.

I get the feeling that it isn't going to be a slam dunk for card buyers to be made whole and especially since you sign a submission form that states you won't submit trimmed cards. I could see them going hard after this Moser guy and he clearly has some resources one would think after the trail of successful flips he has made.

They may be able to pay and not go insolvent but a big hit to their cash will mean a hit to their valuation, no?

The market cap is 175 million at the current share price. Obviously it wouldn't be a good thing for the company if they had to pay out millions of dollars but how much of an impact I think is unknown. Their cash since March of 18 was up 6.2 million and the stock was just over $16 then. I could easily be wrong but I don't see them writing checks for six million dollars on this. If so the stock probably retreats some but what will be more telling is what happens to submission revenue. I don't have a breakdown of how much revenue they get from higher priced submissions but if that were to slow significantly because they are getting less submissions that would probably be something that would have a bigger impact on the stock. I can't under any circumstances see this slowing down gaming submissions or lower priced cards like most collectors submit. The other issue is if they deem cards trimmed they keep the fee. I will go through their 10Q and see if I can find the average card submission price. I think if I recall it is under $10. I also think people forget that the coin business is over 60% of revenue and that has struggled in recent years and has had a big impact on the stock. I totally get that many hate grading but this isn't a dooms day scenario under any circumstances in my view.

I have no idea who Mike O'Keefe is but I love cards. I am always buying, selling, and trading cards with some excellent people.:)

I just really hate the shady side of the hobby.

That's a reasonable analysis but then why is Orlando/Sloan's first statement on the matter an obvious effort to protect against the possibility of a big payout by trying to minimize the scope of the problem, and telling people to go to their sellers with a problem and not PSA? Unless of course the seller is "unknown." Right, I buy lots of cards from unknown people on street corners. Why not just own up to the issue, do their best to help defrauded collectors, institute some positive changes, and move forward? If they truly can afford to deal with this, their instincts are very poor in my opinion.

I know these threads are long but the info is largely all there at this point. In their recent stockholders statement they say that they have no insurance that would cover their guarantee.

Yes it's in the risk factors section of the K.

This is from their 10k

In the case of trading cards, in fiscal 2018, the authentication and grading fees ranged from approximately $1 to $3,575 but averaged $8.74, per trading card. As a
general rule, collectibles dealers and, to a lesser extent, individual collectors, request faster turnaround times and, therefore, generally pay higher fees for more valuable, older
or “vintage” collectibles than they do for modern collectibles.


It is a publicly traded company with stockholders. I would expect them to try and protect the fort. We will know more in the coming months as stories from affected individuals will make it online. I posted a copy of the info my friend Rob (Wrestlingcardking) got from PWCC and it looks to me like it isn't going to be a slam dunk that he sees a refund quickly or at all. Time will tell. In his case the card is in his registry set so many collectors might be faced with the choice to send back the card and break up their set. I could see a scenario where some keep the cards.

Reading through it now and will find it and post it.

This is interesting.


We do not provide a warranty with respect to our opinions regarding the authenticity or quality of autographs or memorabilia.

it is a company that ultimately depends on the faith of the collecting community. I would expect them to do what it takes to restore and preserve that faith even at the expense of a short term hit to the bottom line. The corporate culture seems to be one of secrecy and an ostrich-like stance vis a vis the community. Poof -- kinda says it all.

Here it is


We could suffer losses on authentication and grading warranties.
In general, we issue an authenticity or grading warranty for coins and trading cards that we authenticate or grade. Those warranties provide that:
■ if a coin or trading card that we authenticated and sealed in one of our tamper-evident plastic holders are later determined by us not to have been genuine, we
would have to purchase the collectible at its current market value had it been genuine; or
■ if a coin or trading card that we graded and sealed in one of our tamper-evident plastic holders later receives a lower grade upon resubmission to us for grading,
we would be obligated either to purchase the collectible at the market value at its original assigned grade or to pay the difference between that value as
compared to the value at the lower grade.
We have no insurance coverage for claims made under these warranties, and therefore we maintain reserves for such warranty claims based on historical experience.
However, there is no assurance that these warranty reserves will prove to be adequate, and as we expand our services in overseas markets, we may incur higher warranty
claims than we have experienced in the past. If our warranty reserves prove to be inadequate, our gross margin and operating results could be harmed. As a result, we monitor
the adequacy of our warranty reserves on an ongoing basis.

Hey Ben hope you are doing well. I am sure if you go back a few years you would remember O'Keefe.

I am very curious to see what happens with the Musial PSA 10. It appeared that some ink was added to the card and if they can't tell when it is in hand I could see the grade standing.

If it gets refunded I could also see them going after this Moser guy and trying to recoup their money that way.

Time will tell.

I hope the hell PSA goes down the drain. They created a product so people would be sure their cards are real and turned it into a money making ripoff. I wouldn't send a card to PSA again if the price for grading was $1.00. They have turned into an absolute joke. And yes I have a number of cards graded by them, but never again. Frank.

Maybe the author of this book is the referenced O'Keefe?

It's a good book and came out in 2007 - I wish I had paid more attention to it. There is a whole chapter where the author visits a card doctor who shows him examples of cards he gets past TPGs.

https://www.amazon.com/Card-Collecto.../dp/0061123927

That be he.

I can only speak from cards I have seen ink added to or altered in some way. What I have noticed is the ink actually forms a layer over the adjoining ink and is identifiable under magnification. When holding it back and looking at the card from arms distance these spots sometimes show up as surface marks, wax stains, halos, or scuffs and passed off as such. If the person reviewing does their due diligence they will review the spots individually. Stop to think about the time it will take a person to review that much data. How many cards will go by before one is legit altered? There are a lot of ink altered cards out in holders old and new simply due to the variable ratio schedule. BUT, Such high end cards should be given to a couple of specialized graders that are given ample time to review regardless of turn times.

I am amazed at how much focus is being made on the inks dots when the biggest tell its altered is blatant. Never in the history of ever did these cards come from the factory clean shaved. The paper cutting guillotine machines didn't allow for it to occur. The real collectors know this and so do all the graders familiar with this time frame of cards. Yes some are prettier than others but all have fiber pull and none will ever come off razor sharp without the factory rolled edge. The card has been altered for a while and its a shame it made it back this far.

Interesting theory posted on blowout......

“Aren't the cards surfaced after printing? This is how Moser has been able to get recoloring past PSA graders -- after recoloring, he's been resurfacing the gloss on the cards, so that whatever work he's done appears to have occurred before the card's original surfacing was applied.”

Could that be possible?

From PSA's most recent 10-Q (qtr ended 3/31/19), pg 11 https://q10k.com/CLCT

Warranty Costs



We provide a limited warranty covering the coins and trading cards that we authenticate and grade. Under the warranty, if any collectible coin or trading card that was previously authenticated and graded by us is later submitted to us for re-grading and either (i) receives a lower grade upon that re-submittal or (ii) is determined not to have been authentic, we will offer to purchase the collectible or, in the alternative, at the customer’s option, pay the difference in value of the item at its original grade, as compared to its value at its lower grade. However, this warranty is voided if the collectible, upon re-submittal to us, is not in the same tamper-evident holder in which it was placed at the time we last graded it. We accrue for estimated warranty costs based on historical trends and related experience. We monitor the adequacy of our warranty reserves on an ongoing basis for significant claims resulting from resubmissions receiving lower grades or deemed not to have been authentic. Warranty expense recognized in the three and nine months ended March 31, 2019 was $73,000 and $402,000, respectively, as compared to $128,000 and $343,000, respectively, in the three and nine months ended March 31, 2018.


Also from that same 10-Q page 12

Their accrued warranty reserve at the end of 3/31/19 looks to be $728,000.

Wherever there is money to be made, there will be a shady side.

4 to 7 Beliveau RC

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2873

It's very possible. What usually trips up the people who regum stamps (a similar process) is that the new gum runs just over the edge and soaks into the side, where it's often really obvious.

Is nothing sacred with this guy?? I'm blown away at how many tainted cards are apparently out there!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2878

That viewable difference is what I'd expect. I believe it's possible to do it better, so it's less obvious.

All TPGs need to reverse the in house time tiered pricing, and review the card as long as it takes to get it right nearly every time.

That rolled edge is the key for sure. A newly sharpened blade won't have much roll, and one side of the cut rolls a bit more than the other. And that roll survives a ton of abuse, I have cards that are P-F and it's still easy to spot.