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  #1  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:20 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: Marckus

I was looking through some older auction catalogs and noticed a
description of a D304 lot where Bender is listed as "tough";
are some D304's tougher than others without respect to the reverse
advertisements - which is another discussion altogether or the traded
"black-out" lines for Chase, Crandall, Evers, etc.

Thanks for any input,

Mark


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  #2  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:44 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: robert a

Mark,

I'll post some information on this later when I can look at my notes.

Robert

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  #3  
Old 11-22-2006, 07:08 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: robert a

Mark,

I've intended to write an article about this issue for quite a while, but haven't got to it yet so let me post some info that may be helpful to D304 collectors.

In order to discuss the D304 examples that are tougher than others, we have to put the backs into the discussion. Actually, the backs are the key to understanding the set. I'll explain...

The General Baking Co. was incredibly accurate (for the most part) with which players they inserted into their bread and when they did it. The General Baking back even states "Until October 1" meaning that the company only included the premium of baseball cards during the season.

As we know, the cards were inserted into the 5 different back products over the course of 4 years (1911-1914).

The Brunners and Fleishmann Backs are quite revealing. They state:

"There are 25 subjects in this set." That means quite literally that only the 25 player fronts can be found with those two backs.

In other words, Blacked Out examples are NOT POSSIBLE with Brunners or Fleishmann backs.

That being said, I have not been able to CONFIRM all 25 players with a Fleishmann back and I don't believe certain players are out there with this back.

I have confirmed the 25 players with the Brunners back and all 25 come up with about the same frequency, BUT...

...when we look at the careers of certain players like Tenny, Shafer, Young, and Bell, their careers ended before the Martens, Weber, and G.B. backs were issued. Hence, Those 4 players are never found with those backs.

Many collectors consider Tenny to be tough. This is because his career ended in 1911. I think he might've been pulled out of this product fairly early or never even put in. Similar situation with Bell, but I have seen Shafer and Young with a Fleishmann back.

On to the Martens and Weber backs. By the time these backs were included it was probably 1913 or 1914. A few players who were included in the initial 1911 products had been traded, so General Baking updated by blacking out 5 player names within of their supply of cards that were to be placed into the bread. (I guess this proves that the company had a large supply of these in their warehouse for a few years which might also explain why a fairly large amount survive today).

I HAVE NOT SEEN THE SAME PLAYER WITH BOTH A MARTENS AND WEBER BACK (EXCEPT ONE) Frank Chance seems to be a special exception throughout the 5 different backs. More on him a bit later.

Evers and Herzog traded are found with Martens backs.
Crandall traded has been found with a Weber back and Chance with both.

With the General Baking backs, all of the traded players have been included.

So crandall, evers, chase, herzog, and chance traded are included with the G.B. back. These players with the original team caption are not found with a G.B. back EXCEPT Chance. Again, this is the one deviation from the pattern throughout the 5 backs. I think it's because chance was traded more than once during the d304 years.

I also believe that the General Baking backed d304s were inserted over a few years. This would make sense considering the back represents the company better than the bakery backs which are only off-shoots of the G.B. name.

To sum up with a few things...

1.ALL 30 CARDS ARE NOT POSSIBLE WITH ANY OF THE 5 BACKS.
2.NO ONE PLAYER IS POSSIBLE WITH ALL 5 BACKS.
3.WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL FIVE BACKS, BELL, TENNY, SHAFER, AND YOUNG ARE SHORT PRINTED.
4."TRADED" CARDS ARE HARDER TO FIND THAN NON-TRADED CARDS simply because THEY'RE NOT POSSIBLE WITH ALL 5 BACKS.
5.THE TOUGHEST CARDS (LEAST PRINTED)IN THE SET ARE CRANDALL TRADED AND HERZOG TRADED.

I hope some of this information helps collectors. It is based upon the d304 holdings of the collectors that are board members here.

If anyone has anything to add or that goes against any of the theories presented, please let me know. If you have d304s and feel comfortable emailing me your list for my research, that would be great too.

Cheers.

Robert A



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Old 11-22-2006, 07:16 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: leon

Great post. Thank you.

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  #5  
Old 11-22-2006, 07:29 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: Mark

Thanks Robert!

That was alot of info that probably took you
a long, long time to compile.

Maybe you could include all of your research
in Lyman's Old Cardboard.

In relation to the five different backs - all twelve of my
D304's are Butter Krust....unfortunately.

Maybe Bruce B. and Dan M. can chime in on their experiences;
as the have a nice selection of D304's.

Thanks Again!

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Old 11-22-2006, 07:49 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: cmoking

Fantastic post Robert! Thank you very much.

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Old 11-22-2006, 08:06 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

A fine post, Robert. THAT is what this place is all about. Thank you, sir.

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  #8  
Old 11-22-2006, 08:11 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: Joe D.

you da man!

simply incredible post.

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  #9  
Old 11-22-2006, 10:09 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: peter ullman

great info...i wish i had just 1 of these cards!

pete in mn

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  #10  
Old 11-22-2006, 10:51 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: Anonymous

leon....can you resurect the whole thread on d304's ( i think robert authored the seed) that was made on your short-lived offshoot net54 "cards only" forum back a while...I seem recall some good insite and shared experience.

Dave- as far as that info, from that old board, is concerned it's long gone.....sorry 'bout that (leon)

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  #11  
Old 11-23-2006, 07:27 AM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: dan mckee

I can say that Tenny was the last card needed for 3 of us that were trying to complete the set at the same time. I yielded on the first one that hit ebay and then I got the 2nd one. Dan

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  #12  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:19 PM
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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I'm reposting my D304 back breakdown. Tenney was the last card I needed, as mentioned above. He was also the 5th most expensive, after Cobb, Wagner, Young & Lajoie, and more expensive than Matty.

Weber - Bender

Brunner's - Lajoie, Barry, Chance, Evers, Matty, Schafer, Bell, Herzog, Crandall, Tenny, O'Toole, Marquard, Young, Wagner, Baker, Rucker, Chase, Merkle, Kelly

Butter Krust - Cobb, Collins

General Baking - Meyers, Fletcher, Crawford

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  #13  
Old 11-23-2006, 01:08 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: robert a

Thanks guys for continuing this discussion.

I agree that Tenny was the toughest (besides herzog and crandall blacked out). I had a trimmed tenny before I traded for a nicer example to complete my player set. Thanks to Joe Jones for that!

Let me reveal the results of the back information that I have been working on for that last couple of years. Next to the players name is the amount of examples reported. I tried to make sure that cards were not calculated twice. I received about 140 different examples from board members. The rest came mostly from auction catalogs.

The one thing I'm a bit wary of is the common use of the title "butter krust" to represent the Fleishmann back. It's very confusing due to both backs having "Butter Krust" in large print. I'm not sure if a few collectors reported Fleishmanns when they were really Brunners, but I tried to confirm with each collector.

Here goes:

Brunners Confirmed

Baker 5
Crandall 4
Barry 4
Bell 5
Bender 3
Chance 3
Chase 7
Cobb 4
Collins 5
Crawford 5
Evers 5
Fletcher 3
Herzog 5
Kelly 4
Lajoie 5
Marquard 4
Mathewson 4
Merkle 3
Meyers 2
O'Toole 4
Rucker 4
Shafer 4
Tenny 4
Wagner 3
Young 5

Fleishmann Confirmed

Baker
Chance 2
Cobb
Collins 2
Crandall
Crawford
Kelly
Lajoie
Mathewson
Rucker
Shafer
Young 2

Martens Confirmed

Baker
Chance (b)
Cobb
Crawford 2
Evers (b) 3
Herzog (b)
Merkle
O'Toole
Rucker

Weber Confirmed

Barry
Bender 2
Chance (b)
Collins
Crandall (b)
Fletcher
Kelly
Marquard 3

General Baking Confirmed

Baker
Crandall (b) 3
Barry
Bender
Chance (b) 2
Chance 3
Chase (b) 3
Cobb 3
Collins
Crawford
Evers (b) 2
Fletcher 3
Herzog (b)
Kelly 2
Lajoie
Marquard 2
Mathewson 4
Merkle
Meyers 4
O'Toole 2
Rucker
Wagner

As far as back rarity goes, my very unofficial list has Weber and Martens virtually tied for the most uncommon backs. Fleishmann is third. G.B. fourth with Brunners as the most common.

Tenny has been reported 4 times where Meyers has been reported only twice with a Brunners back. However, Tenny's run ended after Brunners where Meyers has been reported 4 more times with a G.B. back.

Cards with a Weber back haven't been found with a Martens back except for the anomaly (Chance(b)).

If you guys have cards that aren't represented on the list, especially non-Brunners, feel free to let me know.

Thanks.

Robert




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  #14  
Old 11-23-2006, 01:21 PM
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Default D304 Short Prints?

Posted By: leon

My addictedness has me believing Marten backs are somewhat tougher than Weber...not a lot, but a little. Before a small group of Martens, with back damage, were on ebay a few years ago I had only seen a few. I got my copy about 7-8 years ago from Dave S....on ebay...thanks again for your very informative posts....

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